When the Collapse Comes...

[Missourian]

I don't think most of America knows how touchy our electric grid is the power company experts say that if terrorist found out what 8 or 9 transformers to attack it would black out the entire country for almost 2 years because the power transformers we use are made in only 2 countries and take 18 months to make people cant live a week without power imagine going 2 years it would be complete chaos.

Hello and welcome.

Can you tell me where you got that information?

It's a well known secret that our grid is very vulnerable. Just do a google search and you'll be inundated.

I used to work for the electric co-op, saw a guy take out a multi-million dollar transmission line in less than 10 seconds with supplies anyone can get their hands on at Walmart.

I won't post the method, don't want to give anyone any ideas, but it was easy and effective.

 

[westwall]

Not sure where you get the Idea I'm against being prepared.
I'm against the idea of mowing down anyone asking for help during an emergency.
I'm dubious that those who talk about doing so would really do it when the chips were down.

Again, a woman and her 10 year old daughter (or man and his son--whatever) show up at your door hungry wanting food and shelter. You turn them away and you have to explain that to your kid--the daughter/son's classmate at school--why you did that.

The notion that your child will just shrug his shoulders and understand your barbaric and neanderthalic (sp?) attitude is hilarious on one hand and sad on the other--that you think such lessons would just not seriously warp your kid.

My 8 year old knows exactly what it means to be prepared. She has been introduced to life in the real world from the time she was 3. We live out in the "sticks" so the chances of your scenario are remote but we have X amount of food and if we determine that we don't have enough to support more mouths then yes, they will be sent on their way....and my 8 year old knows enough now that even she could make that determination.

It's not a question of "fair" or "nice" or even reasonable. It is a question of survival and my family takes precedence over everything. I will not risk my family to take care of you because you were too lazy to be prepared.

Conservative Financial Guru Dave Ramsey calls this being prepared:

Aside from 5 (done with college except for myself), I am through with the list.

Am I prepared? Dave thinks so. The lady working down at Dairy Queen or the waiter at Red Lobster may not have the same wherewithal as I have been lucky enough to amass. I wouldn't dub either of them as lazy.

Eight years old and will condemn someone to die? Wow.

Wow, save a whole 1000 dollars. I must say that list is pretty sad. In a financial meltdown that 1000 bucks is worth exactly squadoosh. The lady at DQ can be every bit as prepared as we are. You can purchase bulk grains for pennies and they are excellent trade material. The same go's for the waiter at Red Lobster. He can collect plastic water bottles and use them to purify water that is then useful for trade purposes etc.

People who complain about not being properly prepared have no imagination..and no incentive to work.

Here's the deal...if you wish to survive in a disaster situation you MUST be properly prepared. None of his list is going to matter a hill of beans in the event of an earthquake now is it? And that's the question you need to ask yourself. Wherever you live there is some form of natural disaster that afflicts your area.

You need to look at the worst one that happened in your area and imagine an even bigger one. Imagine that NO ONE from outside can get to you for at least a week. Imagine that when they DO get to you, there are going to be a lot of others who need help. Now ask yourself, "what can I do to make sure that in the event of a natural disaster how do I keep myself, and my family fed, watered, and protected. What do I have in place to do that", because in a bad natural disaster every prepper is going to do well, while you starve.

And yes, my 8 year old is going to say to herself..."I had to work to save so I can have the food in my little pantry (she has her own food pantry where she keeps her treats and special foods that she likes, that she earns through chores or other projects) why should I be forced to give my hard earned things to people who played instead?"

 

[pismoe]

like I said earlier in this thread , I like Dave , think that he is pretty smart but everything that Dave says is what my Dad practiced years before Dave was born . Dad also taught me these / his common sense strategies and I'm probably older than Dave Ramsey . My Dad monetarily supported a household of 7 by himself with me being the really big eater .

 

[pismoe]

electric grid info --- Ex-federal official raises concerns over terror attack on power grid | Fox News ---

 

[pismoe]

and this idea of WARPING a kid is just emotional speculation based on words by practitioners of pseudo sciences [experts] . Seems like nowadays anything that isn't ' barney the purple dinosaur ' or ' my little pony play time ' warps kids . Well that's just silly !!

 

[Mathbud1]

Well, you have to remember the formula...

Anonymity + A platform = idiot.

As for "me and mine" come first, I endorse that. What I have a problem with is the "Well, they had their chance to prepare for ______________"; tough shit if they don't have 6 months of supplies at their fingertips.

Nobody alive today remembers World War I much less when society really broke down during the Civil War. Few remember the hardships imposed by WWII. Yet these preppers think we all should know how to skin a buck with one hand while starting a fire with a stick using the other.

It's comical and I doubt those on this forum would turn away the woman and her daughter. The "it depends" is weak but I understand why they lean on it; it's easy to not take a position.

LOL! So you dislike my answer and instead of addressing the reality of it, you choose to ridicule it? lol In truth, what I do would depend on the situation. That is not weak and it is not refusing to take a position. I clearly stated that I would help them unless it meant risking my family. By way of comparison, every first responder is taught to help only when you can do so without endangering yourself. Every life guard is taught to rescue the swimmer only if you can do so without them drowning you. But I guess those people are heartless too?

Here is the basis for my answer. The question you posed was meant to show anyone who faced the truth of the matter is a bloodthirsty asshole. It failed.

Now, the chances of the situation coming to pass may be slim. I accept that and I am glad of it. However, the fact that I have some preparations towards events that are unlikely does not make me delusional. A fire in my home is unlikely too. But I still have fire extinguishers and smoke detectors in my home.

And if there is a breakdown of society, for whatever reason, there will be some grim realities for those who wish to survive. Just as I will shoot anyone breaking into myhome and threatening my family's safety, I will do whatever it takes to insure the survival of those I love. It may not be pretty, but it is accurate.

The idea that it will be some sort of picnic, and the preppers choose not to invite everyone is nonsense. It will gruesome. There will be dead and dying people all around. People will be forced to eat things that will turn our stomachs now. But when the choice is eating rats or starving, suddenly rat becomes a delicacy.


And comparing wars from 100 years ago to the devastation that can be wrought now is a waste of time. In 1914 (WWI), it would take years to destroy the US. Now it could be done in a matter of hours. In 1914, the destruction of oil processing facilities and fuel storage facilities would be an inconvenience, at the worst. The same scenario now would mean the starvation of hundreds of thousands of people.

Also, as I stated before, I have firearms because I like to shoot and hunt for recreation. The fact that I would use those tools of my hobbies to protect my home and family is not evil, but practical.

I didn't know "it depends " was yours. I seem to recall it being said a few times.

It's weak. Sorry; but it is.

If that is your position; fine I suppose. You'll have to live with it and explain to your kids why you condemned their schoolmate to death (possibly). Hint: You won't be able to justify it to your kid or your Lord. Ever.

Again, where I have a problem is with this crazy mentality that everyone should be prepared for anything at all times and if they aren't...well, they are worthless and weak.

Nobody said you have to be prepared for anything all the time. Why do you have a problem with people who have the means to prepare for some things and do so? Is it better to not prepare for anything at all? Give up on all preparations?

Are you going to get rid of the spare tire in your car? Don't bother taking a first aid kit when hiking?

 

[Mathbud1]

Well, you have to remember the formula...

Anonymity + A platform = idiot.

As for "me and mine" come first, I endorse that. What I have a problem with is the "Well, they had their chance to prepare for ______________"; tough shit if they don't have 6 months of supplies at their fingertips.

Nobody alive today remembers World War I much less when society really broke down during the Civil War. Few remember the hardships imposed by WWII. Yet these preppers think we all should know how to skin a buck with one hand while starting a fire with a stick using the other.

It's comical and I doubt those on this forum would turn away the woman and her daughter. The "it depends" is weak but I understand why they lean on it; it's easy to not take a position.

LOL! So you dislike my answer and instead of addressing the reality of it, you choose to ridicule it? lol In truth, what I do would depend on the situation. That is not weak and it is not refusing to take a position. I clearly stated that I would help them unless it meant risking my family. By way of comparison, every first responder is taught to help only when you can do so without endangering yourself. Every life guard is taught to rescue the swimmer only if you can do so without them drowning you. But I guess those people are heartless too?

Here is the basis for my answer. The question you posed was meant to show anyone who faced the truth of the matter is a bloodthirsty asshole. It failed.

Now, the chances of the situation coming to pass may be slim. I accept that and I am glad of it. However, the fact that I have some preparations towards events that are unlikely does not make me delusional. A fire in my home is unlikely too. But I still have fire extinguishers and smoke detectors in my home.

And if there is a breakdown of society, for whatever reason, there will be some grim realities for those who wish to survive. Just as I will shoot anyone breaking into myhome and threatening my family's safety, I will do whatever it takes to insure the survival of those I love. It may not be pretty, but it is accurate.

The idea that it will be some sort of picnic, and the preppers choose not to invite everyone is nonsense. It will gruesome. There will be dead and dying people all around. People will be forced to eat things that will turn our stomachs now. But when the choice is eating rats or starving, suddenly rat becomes a delicacy.


And comparing wars from 100 years ago to the devastation that can be wrought now is a waste of time. In 1914 (WWI), it would take years to destroy the US. Now it could be done in a matter of hours. In 1914, the destruction of oil processing facilities and fuel storage facilities would be an inconvenience, at the worst. The same scenario now would mean the starvation of hundreds of thousands of people.

Also, as I stated before, I have firearms because I like to shoot and hunt for recreation. The fact that I would use those tools of my hobbies to protect my home and family is not evil, but practical.

I didn't know "it depends " was yours. I seem to recall it being said a few times.

It's weak. Sorry; but it is.

If that is your position; fine I suppose. You'll have to live with it and explain to your kids why you condemned their schoolmate to death (possibly). Hint: You won't be able to justify it to your kid or your Lord. Ever.

Again, where I have a problem is with this crazy mentality that everyone should be prepared for anything at all times and if they aren't...well, they are worthless and weak.

Is your own position that you would always take anyone in?

 

[RandallFlagg]

In a real world disaster situation you have those who were prepared and those who weren't. The ultimate question is, do you have a few who live in relative poverty, or do they all die? You see that is the nature of preparedness. We realize that you can only take care of so many people. They all have to be productive or useful in some way as well. That's just the way it is sadly.

What you find among a large majority of preppers is they help their neighbors so that the local neighborhood can be self sufficient. Preppers for the most part aren't stupid. They realize they need to sleep and so having a small community of like minded folks helps to spread the burden out.

What I do find amusing though is the mentality of the progressives vs the conservatives. The conservatives want to be prepared and the progressives claim they will attack the conservatives and take what they have.

Interesting...

Not sure where you get the Idea I'm against being prepared.
I'm against the idea of mowing down anyone asking for help during an emergency.
I'm dubious that those who talk about doing so would really do it when the chips were down.

Again, a woman and her 10 year old daughter (or man and his son--whatever) show up at your door hungry wanting food and shelter. You turn them away and you have to explain that to your kid--the daughter/son's classmate at school--why you did that.

The notion that your child will just shrug his shoulders and understand your barbaric and neanderthalic (sp?) attitude is hilarious on one hand and sad on the other--that you think such lessons would just not seriously warp your kid.

My 8 year old knows exactly what it means to be prepared. She has been introduced to life in the real world from the time she was 3. We live out in the "sticks" so the chances of your scenario are remote but we have X amount of food and if we determine that we don't have enough to support more mouths then yes, they will be sent on their way....and my 8 year old knows enough now that even she could make that determination.

It's not a question of "fair" or "nice" or even reasonable. It is a question of survival and my family takes precedence over everything. I will not risk my family to take care of you because you were too lazy to be prepared.

Quite honestly, these folks who will "open their doors" are fools. Stupid liberal fools. If things are actually THAT bad - open your door to me. I will cut your throat and take what you have. If, indeed, it's Armageddon = it's every man for himself. And MY family comes before THEIR families.

Sounds harsh - but that's the reality of THAT situation.


It WILL come to that one day - hopefully many years in the future and I hope that I and my family are long in the ground before that happens....

 

[R.C. Christian]

As a sort of "Prepper", I'd stash resources along my egress, underground and sit it out outside for a couple of days or even weeks, leaving just enough stuff in the house for the rival neighbors to steal while observing them from a defilade and, if necessary, dispatching them one at a time, in the back, as they start to scurry away. Once properly dead, I'd go raid their pantry and feed their stinking corpses to the wildlife which I will also, eventually, execute and eat.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Saw this yesterday:



I'm just curious; you preppers out there who insist the world is coming to an end and are arming yourself to wart off the hordes of people coming for you Cocoa Puffs...are you going to tell your neighbor "Go **** yourself" if they knock on your door?

There are a lot of people out there who think the world/civilization is going to come to an end any day now. It's an outward projection of their own feelings of depression.

They come in different flavors. You got your Jesus Second Coming types, you got your Planet X types, and you got your Second American Civil War types.

The one thing they all have in common is that they are actually looking forward to the great suffering that would take place. They can't wait!

When one of them says, "And when you knock on my door for help , the answer is 'Go **** yourself'", they are living out the fantasy of Genesis 21-22. They see themselves as Noah, refusing entry to the neighbors who had laughed and jeered at him. They gleefully look forward to the day when they can watch everyone else die as they watch from some imaginary summit or safe refuge. It is a critical part of their fantasy they be able to observe the suffering of others. The end of the world won't be any fun if they don't get to watch everyone else writing in pain and screaming out "YOU WERE RIGHT! WE'RE SORReeeeeeeeeeeee...glub-glub-glub"


We're talking about really sick puppies here.

Where as the parable of Noah actually went through with it...do you think the average prepper would turn away a woman and her baby? I tend to not think so.

I would go further to say that of every 100 preppers, 80 would welcome them into their bunker or whatever they have going on.

Sick puppies indeed for wanting that day of reckoning to come. However, I doubt that there would be some sort of litmus test performed as to entry. In a good year, about 1/2 of us vote. In most years its closer to 1/3 or 1/4. I really don't think that when the chips are down; someone is going to ask if they were a democrat or republican. In our daily lives; it's just not that important.

And lets not forget; there are different veins of every ideology. Not all Muslims are jihadists; not all protestants are Klansmen. Those who are most effective across all ideologies are those who seek win-wins and are, by definition, not beholden to homogeneity of thought, of trade, or of purpose.

Actually, I'm a bit surprised by g5000's post. I wouldn't have expected that from him.

I'm a Christian who believes we are in fact on the cusp of the Tribulation period of human history depicted in the Book of Revelation, albeit, for reasons mostly unrelated to America's apparent decline. The Christians I know are looking forward to the Rapture and to Christ's Second Coming, of course, but not due to so niggardly a desire as to witness the penultimate moment of vindication as they munch on popcorn and hotdogs, and cheer from the seats of the nose-bleed section that is heaven. LOL! I'm sorry, but g5000's notion regarding the motivations of believers really is that silly, especially the bit about Noah. What we have here, instead, is the projection of g5000's contempt for those who believe in the "fantasies" of scripture and his lack of appreciation for the extent to which the horror of evil has contorted the human soul.

On the contrary, Christ's return and His judgment of the fallen world order will end centuries of human misery. Westerners tend to forget that the depredations of tyranny are the prevailing experience throughout most of human history; indeed, they are the prevailing reality for most of the world's population today. That is what the broken and contrite hearts of Christianity are all about as they pray that God hold back his wrath for as long as possible for the sake of those who remain outside the shelter of God's merciful grace; notwithstanding, not our will, but His be done.

I think g5000 needs to get out more or break free of the ideological ties that . . . blind.


"Not all Muslims are jihadists; not all protestants are Klansmen."

Well, that's good to know, though in my experience, Klansmen are a relatively tiny segment of the population and not traditional Protestants of the Reformation, let alone Christians in any sense but name, the one they subversively slapped on their depravity.

"Those who are most effective across all ideologies are those who seek win-wins and are, by definition, not beholden to homogeneity of thought, of trade, or of purpose."

Ah! I see you've got your finger on America's pulse. "By definition, not beholden to homogeneity of thought," eh? You leftists are big on that sort of thing, aren't you? Of course, the rest of us are scratching our heads at that bit a gibberish.

What exactly does that look like, anyway? Folks bouncing off the walls and ceiling as they struggle to rid themselves of the many voices in their head, a throng of contradictory declarations each warring against all the others? Sounds like a significant portion of the population is suffering from some kind of psychotic break akin to split personality disorder according to you.

I think you're wrong there. According to the literature that's a very rare disorder.

What you're really talking about here is the homogeneity of relativism, that is, diversity in everything but thought.

 

[R.C. Christian]

I don't really believe in rapture but I believe your assessment of tribulation is is probably correct. And I'm not Christian. I'm too mean.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Again, a woman and her 10 year old daughter (or man and his son--whatever) show up at your door hungry wanting food and shelter. You turn them away and you have to explain that to your kid--the daughter/son's classmate at school--why you did that.

What is with this liberal strategy of continually asking the same question until they get the answer they desperately seek?

Look, why not modify the question so it's not boring to those of us who have to continually best you in these arguments.

Instead of showing up on the doorstep, why not say that a mother and daughter swim up to your overflowing and overpacked lifeboat after the cruise liner sunk. They want to be let into the lifeboat that is already on the thin edge of sinking. How are you going to explain to your daughter that you didn't want to drown all the people in the lifeboat by letting that mother and daughter be pulled in and sinking it? That's a pretty easy explanation, I think.

 

[pismoe]

yeah , I don't know about the Rapture but seems like bad things are happening worldwide at a pretty ominous pace . Tribulation or a redoing or reordering or something . My Mom and Dad are both passed away a few years back . I wouldn't want my Mom [especially] as an older lady to be watching whats going on these days .

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

I don't really believe in rapture but I believe your assessment of tribulation is is probably correct. And I'm not Christian. I'm too mean.

I noticed that, but your wit redeems your meanness . . . sort of.

 

[pismoe]

I like your real life question Rikurzhen as I think that your example has happened many times in maritime history .

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Instead of showing up on the doorstep, why not say that a mother and daughter swim up to your overflowing and overpacked lifeboat after the cruise liner sunk. They want to be let into the lifeboat that is already on the thin edge of sinking. How are you going to explain to your daughter that you didn't want to drown all the people in the lifeboat by letting that mother and daughter be pulled in and sinking it? That's a pretty easy explanation, I think.

There are eight different possibilities in this scenario.

If all of the people on the lifeboat (GROUP A) prohibit entry of the mother and child (Group B), they are within their rights, as they reached it first. It is their property.

In this case if anyone from Group B attempts to board the lifeboat, Group A has a duty, not just a right, to repel the invaders. Group B, if honorable, will recognize this and allow themselves to perish, however if Group B does attempt to seize the lifeboat, Group B is now in a State of War with Group A, and Group B is the aggressor; however Group B has a good cause to go to war with Group A. So that covers two scenarios.

There is also another scenario. Suppose an individual from Group A decides to die in place of someone from Group B (maybe the dude from Group A has terminal cancer and doesn't give a shit, or really just hates himself, or had a vision from G-d). The person from Group A must now honor their verbal contract, so when the exchange from Group B is complete, both Group A and Group B have a right to enforce this contract. That person must perish. That's two more scenarios.

Then there is the case of TWO (or more) people reaching the lifeboat at the same time, when it can only hold one person. If they are honorable, they'll do rock paper scissors, or something similar. In this case the person who loses must perish, but if that person resists, Group A has a right to resist and repel the insurgent who will not fulfill their contract, and a duty to bring the winner onboard. That's another two scenarios.

The final case is if TWO (or more) of them reach the Lifeboat at the same time, but at least one among them does not wish to gamble on fate/luck. All other persons in Group B have a right (and duty) to kill the person who doesn't wish to gamble.

A seventh case is when TWO or more people reach the lifeboat, but a 50% majority of them do NOT want to gamble. They are now all in a State of War, as well as the individuals who did want to gamble. The non-gamblers are all individual free-for-all aggressors, and the gamblers are defenders. The gamblers, if smart, will team up and gamble afterwards. If any of the non-gamblers win this fight, Group A should not permit them entry, since they are inherently dangerous.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

yeah , I don't know about the Rapture but seems like bad things are happening worldwide at a pretty ominous pace . Tribulation or a redoing or reordering or something . My Mom and Dad are both passed away a few years back . I wouldn't want my Mom [especially] as an older lady to be watching whats going on these days .

Well, according to scripture, the end times occur shortly after the nation of Israel is reconstituted following the destruction of the Temple and the Great Diaspora. All three of these things were foretold and have since happened, the former relatively recently in 1947. There are, however, a few more events that must take place first, and things are moving in the direction of these events as we speak. By the way, these are events that would have struck most people as being inconceivable, say, twenty to thirty years ago, just like the notion that Israel would ever be reconstituted was thought to be absurd. Indeed, the g5000s of the late 19th and early 20th centuries jeered at that prospect too. Come to think, they jeered at Noah's "madness" according to the Bible.

Whether or not the Great Deluge of that time was worldwide or regional, it did occur. At the very least, it was regional, enveloping most of the Middle East, and parts of Africa and Europe. We know that much from the geological and archeological evidence.

Most jeerers are not even aware of that. Those that are take issue with the lack of geological evidence for a worldwide deluge, seemingly asserted by scripture, and the notion that Noah could have possibly built an Ark that would have been big enough to accommodate the animals . . . just for starters. But we digress.

 

[Spoonman]

Saw this yesterday:

When the collapse comes, God Willing, I will be ready. And when yhou knock on my door for help , the answer is 'Go **** yourself'

I'm just curious; you preppers out there who insist the world is coming to an end and are arming yourself to wart off the hordes of people coming for you Cocoa Puffs...are you going to tell your neighbor "Go **** yourself" if they knock on your door?

if my neighbors came to my door now I'd tell them to go **** themselves. why should the end be any different?

 

[candycorn]

LOL! So you dislike my answer and instead of addressing the reality of it, you choose to ridicule it? lol In truth, what I do would depend on the situation. That is not weak and it is not refusing to take a position. I clearly stated that I would help them unless it meant risking my family. By way of comparison, every first responder is taught to help only when you can do so without endangering yourself. Every life guard is taught to rescue the swimmer only if you can do so without them drowning you. But I guess those people are heartless too?

Here is the basis for my answer. The question you posed was meant to show anyone who faced the truth of the matter is a bloodthirsty asshole. It failed.

Now, the chances of the situation coming to pass may be slim. I accept that and I am glad of it. However, the fact that I have some preparations towards events that are unlikely does not make me delusional. A fire in my home is unlikely too. But I still have fire extinguishers and smoke detectors in my home.

And if there is a breakdown of society, for whatever reason, there will be some grim realities for those who wish to survive. Just as I will shoot anyone breaking into myhome and threatening my family's safety, I will do whatever it takes to insure the survival of those I love. It may not be pretty, but it is accurate.

The idea that it will be some sort of picnic, and the preppers choose not to invite everyone is nonsense. It will gruesome. There will be dead and dying people all around. People will be forced to eat things that will turn our stomachs now. But when the choice is eating rats or starving, suddenly rat becomes a delicacy.


And comparing wars from 100 years ago to the devastation that can be wrought now is a waste of time. In 1914 (WWI), it would take years to destroy the US. Now it could be done in a matter of hours. In 1914, the destruction of oil processing facilities and fuel storage facilities would be an inconvenience, at the worst. The same scenario now would mean the starvation of hundreds of thousands of people.

Also, as I stated before, I have firearms because I like to shoot and hunt for recreation. The fact that I would use those tools of my hobbies to protect my home and family is not evil, but practical.

I didn't know "it depends " was yours. I seem to recall it being said a few times.

It's weak. Sorry; but it is.

If that is your position; fine I suppose. You'll have to live with it and explain to your kids why you condemned their schoolmate to death (possibly). Hint: You won't be able to justify it to your kid or your Lord. Ever.

Again, where I have a problem is with this crazy mentality that everyone should be prepared for anything at all times and if they aren't...well, they are worthless and weak.

Nobody said you have to be prepared for anything all the time. Why do you have a problem with people who have the means to prepare for some things and do so? Is it better to not prepare for anything at all? Give up on all preparations?

Are you going to get rid of the spare tire in your car? Don't bother taking a first aid kit when hiking?

Ive said it a dozen times already...preparing isn't the issue. Gunning down someone asking for help is. See the first god-damned post for clarification. Christ.

We've leaned here that some people allegedly have 12-18 months worth of food and would still tell someone asking for help to go **** themselves and someone has deputized an 8 year old to basically tell someone to go take a hike during an emergency.

I'm dubious of all of the claims....I think that when the chips are down, your humanity takes over. Yes, if you're down to your last can of soup, you feed your family with it before you offer anyone else a spoonful. When you have 300 cans of soup? Uhh...you're sick if you don't share IMHO.


It is sort of telling--from a political viewpoint--that those who don't give two shits for their fellow Americans seem to be the ones who have lost five of the last six popular votes in national elections.

 

[pismoe]

interesting thing about the flood is the flood legends from different and distant societies . Found myself agreeing with the E. Burke quote , sounds true to life and descriptive of many people .