Zone1 When Has American Isolationism Failed?

[surada]

England suffered the same fate as Rome extending their war machine to the far reaches of the globe through pure arrogance. Isolationism and Nationalism are two "isms" that we would do well to adopt because globalism ain't working for us AT ALL.

Nationalism? Look at the Nationalists of the 20th century.

 

[DudleySmith]

No, he was a ghoulish fucking chickenhawk warmonger.

And you're Jane Fonda. Congratulations.

 

[SavannahMann]

So you don’t like my statement regarding the history. I didn’t make it up. I summarized it a great deal. But I didn’t make any up.

I’d suggest reading a couple books.

Try this one first.

Amazon product ASIN 0345324250
It is an excellently written history book. It does cover the diplomatic attitudes for France, Germany, England, and America, leading up to the war.

Her best book remains The Guns of August. I can not recommend that book enough. While every History book has facts or information that is valuable to the student of history. Few present those facts and are able to tell the story as well as Guns of August or Zimmerman Telegram.

 

[Oddball]

So you don’t like my statement regarding the history. I didn’t make it up. I summarized it a great deal. But I didn’t make any up.

I’d suggest reading a couple books.

Try this one first.

Amazon product ASIN 0345324250
It is an excellently written history book. It does cover the diplomatic attitudes for France, Germany, England, and America, leading up to the war.

Her best book remains The Guns of August. I can not recommend that book enough. While every History book has facts or information that is valuable to the student of history. Few present those facts and are able to tell the story as well as Guns of August or Zimmerman Telegram.

Your "history" is lies and spin.

The interventions in both world wars were deliberately provoked....Neither were instances of the US just "minding its own business".

Watching you warmongering scum sit around and make excuses for organized mass murder is stomach turning.

 

[SavannahMann]

No, he was a ghoulish fucking chickenhawk warmonger.

Curious. If I get paid by the VA every month for my Service related injuries.

It isn’t a lot of money. And I’ve always considered it more of a statement than a support. A way for the Nation to say. Than you for your service. Please accept this token for your discomfort. Aches and pains earned in honorable service. I know it was Honorable. The discharge paper said so.

Now my understanding is that a Chickenhawk is someone who would not go and put it on the line for their beliefs. It is interesting that you would call someone who has put it on the line that. Interesting, not insulting.

 

[SavannahMann]

Your "history" is lies and spin.

The interventions in both world wars were deliberately provoked....Neither were instances of the US just "minding its own business".

Watching you warmongering scum sit around and make excuses for organized mass murder is stomach turning.

Read some books and get back to me.

 

[Oddball]

Read some books and get back to me.

I've read a lot of books, ghoul.

 

[SavannahMann]

I've read a lot of books, ghoul.

Interesting. You seem to be awfully insulting for a Clean Debate Zone post.

How and why did the Kaiser report his contention of hundreds of thousands of Japanese Troops in Mexico to America and the World? I personally loved the detail about the Brass Buttons.

Or the Japanese Plan to march from Mexico to seize the Panama Canal?

I always wondered if the Kaiser understood there was about a thousand miles of Jungle and really awful terrain between Mexico and the Canal.

 

[jwoodie]

The obvious answer: 1937-1941.

Would you care to expound on that one-liner? Or is that all you've got?

 

[jwoodie]

Isolationism always fails in the modern world.

Wilson was desperate to stay out of the War. The problem was that Germany didn’t believe him. You see for Germany, it was inconceivable that anyone with as much power as the Americans had could fail to use it. That is partly why the Kaiser spent years trying to get America to fight in Central America. Making the public argument that you could not control the Panama Canal if there was Territory you did not control separating you from it.

America tried to stay Neutral ignoring or at most lightly protesting the actions of the German U Boats.

The Zimmerman Telegram changed the attitudes overnight. For most people anyway. Like today there were people too smart to believe such Rubbish. When asked directly if he would deny the Telegram Zimmerman said he could not. He had sent it.

Those people would after the War launch hearings into British Propaganda efforts. There was some. Certainly. But the Germans really did all the things they were credited with in the Propaganda.

Pre World War II FDR desperately wanted to help the British. And he got some laws passed to allow him to help as much as he could. And he issued orders that were questionable.

However the Americans ignored provocation after provocation. Japanese attacks on our people and vessels in China. German sabotage in the United States as well as attacks on our vessels.

Isolationism did not seem to be working. And on December 7 we saw the end result.

The real problem with Isolationism is that it requires both parties to agree. I’ll leave you alone if you leave me alone.

That’s fine, in theory. But if one of the parties to the agreement is a thug. It won’t work.

Let’s view it as a micro instead of a macro. It makes it easier to discuss. Let’s say a Thug is leaning on your friend. Your friend asks for help. You tell him it isn’t any of your problem. The friend cuts a deal and gives up his money to the thug.

Another friend goes down next. The thug is never satisfied with a little. They always want a lot. Eventually the thug controls the entire neighborhood and the fight with him is either extremely destructive or impossible to win. Wouldn’t it be easier and better to stand with your friend against the thug early on?

Yes. Korea was a bad war. Tens of thousands of American Soldiers died. Many times that were wounded. But the war was kept localized. It was kept there in Korea. It didn’t spread across the region.

But back to your friend. If you don’t want to help him directly. You could offer advice on how to fight. Perhaps some weapons to better fight with.

When the Revolution was discussed. The old phrase comes to mind. We can hang together. Or we will certainly hang separately.

Isolationism is discredited because we learned from history. It always ends in tears.

Now that you have gotten that off your chest, how about specifically answering my questions? Let's start with:

When has American isolationism failed?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Would you care to expound on that one-liner? Or is that all you've got?

The US did not get involved in Europe or China, 1937-1941.
Had it done so, the wars (war in Europe, war in Asia/Pacific) might have happened.

 

[jwoodie]

The US did not get involved in Europe or China, 1937-1941.
Had it done so, the wars (war in Europe, war in Asia/Pacific) might have happened.

Actually, the US was involved in Europe and China during that period, sending supplies to Britain and embargoing trade with Japan. What else should we have done? How does entering into a war prevent war? If we had not entered WW1, that war would have ended with a peace settlement that did not ensure another war in 20 years.

 

[SavannahMann]

Now that you have gotten that off your chest, how about specifically answering my questions? Let's start with:

When has American isolationism failed?

Ok. To summarize. World War One. World War Two. Korea. Any more examples needed?

 

[SavannahMann]

Actually, the US was involved in Europe and China during that period, sending supplies to Britain and embargoing trade with Japan. What else should we have done? How does entering into a war prevent war? If we had not entered WW1, that war would have ended with a peace settlement that did not ensure another war in 20 years.

That is foolishness speaking. World War One required the victors to be compensated by the defeated nations. Every nation was deficit spending to afford the war. Every nation counted on being paid by the loser.

An example. World War One. Germany promised to pay a Billion Dollars to Belgium if Belgium would capitulate and not blow up bridges or tunnels and delay the German advance. After the war when interviews revealed this offer and the German Ministers were asked about their extremely generous offer. They replied it was no big deal. France would have paid it.

If we had stayed out and Germany won, because we were not selling arms and material to England and France. England and France would have paid the restitution and then began plotting how to defeat Germany.

France had spent every minute since their defeat in the Franco Prussian war of 1870. There was even a French General who was a veteran of the old war. The desire to retake Alsace and Lorraine continued to motivate France through to the War in 1914.

Remember. Wilson was opposed to Reparations. He could not carry the argument. There was no way that British and French Politicians were going home to face their citizens with empty hands. They needed the Germans and Austrians to pay for the enormous cost of the conflict. After all that is what every nation promised their people. The enemy would pay.

Wilson eventually gave in to compromise and get his dream of a League of Nations.

 

[otto105]

Nationalism? Look at the Nationalists of the 20th century.

Anything prior to WWI.

We were a backward ass nation not living to our founding documents stated values and just barely going by.

 

[jwoodie]

That is foolishness speaking. World War One required the victors to be compensated by the defeated nations. Every nation was deficit spending to afford the war. Every nation counted on being paid by the loser.

An example. World War One. Germany promised to pay a Billion Dollars to Belgium if Belgium would capitulate and not blow up bridges or tunnels and delay the German advance. After the war when interviews revealed this offer and the German Ministers were asked about their extremely generous offer. They replied it was no big deal. France would have paid it.

If we had stayed out and Germany won, because we were not selling arms and material to England and France. England and France would have paid the restitution and then began plotting how to defeat Germany.

France had spent every minute since their defeat in the Franco Prussian war of 1870. There was even a French General who was a veteran of the old war. The desire to retake Alsace and Lorraine continued to motivate France through to the War in 1914.

Remember. Wilson was opposed to Reparations. He could not carry the argument. There was no way that British and French Politicians were going home to face their citizens with empty hands. They needed the Germans and Austrians to pay for the enormous cost of the conflict. After all that is what every nation promised their people. The enemy would pay.

Wilson eventually gave in to compromise and get his dream of a League of Nations.

Rather than addressing specific points of contention, beginning a reply with "That is foolishness speaking" indicates that the remainder of the post will be ill thought out irrelevancies. What does your discourse on reparations have to do with my post?

 

[Deadstick]

England suffered the same fate as Rome extending their war machine to the far reaches of the globe through pure arrogance. Isolationism and Nationalism are two "isms" that we would do well to adopt because globalism ain't working for us AT ALL.

What we need from these Countries is mind your own businessism, from European Colonialism to US Imperialism they seem to think they have a right to run other peoples Countries, i forgot who the quote was from but when asked what is Colonialism? the answer was it's going to other Countries and stealing their things.

 

[otto105]

The more I read of Roman history, the more it seems to merge with American history. The Roman Empire grew to encompass the "known world" by constantly perceiving threats on its borders and conquering new territory in response to those threats. This eventually led to Rome's downfall because it could not afford to maintain its vast empire. The United States seems to be going through the same process by continuing to maintain its military presence and influence around the world.

What, exactly, has this gotten us? Are we safer now than we have ever been in the past? Did saving the USSR from Germany benefit us in the long run? Are we better off because we saved China from Japan? Why haven't we stopped to even consider these questions?

Instead, we have been denigrating the "isolationist" feelings of the American people that existed before each of the last world wars as somehow unpatriotic or supporting foreign dictatorships. Was this anything more than submission to war fever whipped up by opportunistic military and political leaders? Hasn't this allowed for our participation in foreign conflicts ever since?

What, exactly, is wrong with an America First policy that avoids entanglements with foreign affairs? What military threats do we face that can't be dealt with through a strong defensive capability at home? This does not mean that we should ignore serious threats on our borders, but potential threats from thousands of miles away do not require our physical presence to deter them.

It is often said that we have an obligation to prevent any bad occurrences anywhere in the world, but what bad occurrences have we prevented? It seems that, at most, we have come in after the fact to righteously declaim the perpetrators. What good has that accomplished?

If American Isolationism has failed, it is because it has succumbed to the hypnotic beat of war drums. Maybe we should turn down that noise and begin thinking for ourselves.

How is North Korea doing with isolationism?

 

[candycorn]

2017-2020. When we had a national crisis, we had shortages of everything because we started trade wars with everyone--including our allies.

 

[jwoodie]

How is North Korea doing with isolationism?

No foreign wars?