When exactly does the Democrats' socialism kick in?

[Flopper]

As intelligent automation continues to replace wage labor, the need for socialism increases. So it's only a matter of time before we'll have a non-profit-based, marketless, socialist economy.

The idea that automation will replace labor has proven to be false. For example, while robots have displaced unskilled workers on assembly lines, they have also created new jobs for machinists, advanced welders, and other technicians who maintain the machines or use them to perform new tasks.

Advances in technology also creates whole new industries. AI will eliminate jobs but it will also give birth to new businesses that we never dreamed would exist.

A few years ago, I read an article about the millions of jobs that would be lost due to online purchasing. What it didn't mentions was the number of new retail online businesses it would create and new jobs plus the huge growth in warehouse jobs, technology jobs to support online services, and delivery services.

I don't think the day will ever arise when most workers can rest and play all day, living off their goverment checks.

 

[Flopper]

You shouldn’t be so dismissive when you are wrong.

The means of producing law enforcement is controlled by the government.

The means of producing education is controlled by the government.

Public education and law enforcement has been with us for hundreds of years. Is it socialism? Only to extent that it displaces private business that could do the job. I think we have learned over years that privatizing local police and abolishing public education does not work.

Classic socialism will always fail just as pure capitalism will fail. Both are just economic theories.

 

[Winco]

Per my latest thread: when conservative/independent school teachers--57% of us in total--stop spending the average $650 to supply our own rooms, that will be a start.

That's over ONE BILLION DOLLARS every school year

You all want socialism? We should give you JUST what you want.

and just CONSERVATIVE teachers,

You don't LOVE and Nurture your students........Sad.
You constantly complain, and worse, you separate teachers into political groups.
Which means you probably discriminate against your very own students.....Sad.

 

[Flopper]

Are you aware that capitalism is based on wages?

Capitalism is based on who hold the means of production government or private interest. Wages are simply a necessary cost of doing business.

 

[Flopper]

You don't LOVE and Nurture your students........Sad.
You constantly complain, and worse, you separate teachers into political groups.
Which means you probably discriminate against your very own students.....Sad.

When people say they want socialism, I don't believe they understand what socialism actually is. I believe they want a more regulated form of capitalism and more social services. I don't think they want to abolish private ownership of all businesses.

 

[TruthNotBS]

The idea that automation will replace labor has proven to be false. For example, while robots have displaced unskilled workers on assembly lines, they have also created new jobs for machinists, advanced welders, and other technicians who maintain the machines or use them to perform new tasks.

Advances in technology also creates whole new industries. AI will eliminate jobs but it will also give birth to new businesses that we never dreamed would exist.

A few years ago, I read an article about the millions of jobs that would be lost due to online purchasing. What it didn't mentions was the number of new retail online businesses it would create and new jobs plus the huge growth in warehouse jobs, technology jobs to support online services, and delivery services.

I don't think the day will ever arise when most workers can rest and play all day, living off their goverment checks.

The idea that automation will replace labor has proven to be false. For example, while robots have displaced unskilled workers on assembly lines, they have also created new jobs for machinists, advanced welders, and other technicians who maintain the machines or use them to perform new tasks.

That sounds beautiful, but the problem is that you're describing what occurred in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, not now. Automation today, unlike in the past, is intelligent and fully autonomous. It doesn't need a human operator anymore. Your assumption that it will create more tech-repair jobs is ignoring the fact that this technology repairs itself. It regularly debugs, runs diagnostic maintenance, and literally, repairs itself. Moreover, the new jobs that this technology will create won't compensate for the tens of millions of jobs it will replace. Not everyone can become a high-paid tech, and those that can, won't have that job for long, due to the aforementioned fact that this intelligent technology maintains and repairs itself.

Over half of America lives paycheck to paycheck, hand to mouth, and can barely make ends meet, yet you assert that they're going to be better off when intelligent automation and autonomous machines take their jobs. No, you're quite confused in your assessment of the situation.

Advances in technology also creates whole new industries. AI will eliminate jobs but it will also give birth to new businesses that we never dreamed would exist.

That sounds nice, but the billionaires, who are the real experts in commerce, don't agree with you. You simply don't understand what advanced automation and artificial intelligence is capable of. It replaces practically all jobs, even white-collar jobs. Practically everything.

​

These billionaires know that without a UBI (Universal Basic Income) or UI (Universal Income), capitalism will collapse due to a lack of wages. Without wages, there aren't enough paying consumers, hence the market shrinks, until it's no longer worth investing in or profitable. This is why they're all hoping the government intervenes and creates an artificial, unproductive, "consumer-serf", that receives money from the government in order to purchase the goods and services the capitalist class (the current private owners of production) are selling. Without that UBI (which by default will shortly become a UI, the only income people have), people become homeless and starve. That's why we need socialist production ASAP.

A few years ago, I read an article about the millions of jobs that would be lost due to online purchasing. What it didn't mentions was the number of new retail online businesses it would create and new jobs plus the huge growth in warehouse jobs, technology jobs to support online services, and delivery services.

Yes, you're proving my point. Those warehouse and delivery jobs are being automated too. Everything is being automated by intelligent robots and AI. These autonomous machines can do everything, and that's unprecedented in the history of human production. In the past there was always a new opportunity of employment, something else people could do, to earn a wage, but the era of successful workforce reallocation within the capitalist system, is behind us. It's no longer a viable solution or option as it was in the past, before technology became intelligent and autonomous.

I don't think the day will ever arise when most workers can rest and play all day, living off their goverment checks.

That's what your wealthy capitalist gods do, but just like they can dedicate themselves to some type of meaningful, personally rewarding work, irrespective of their lack of need or threat of scarcity, so can everyone else. They're not special in that sense, because that's a human trait.

For tens of thousands of years, human beings have worked without wages, because they had to survive and meet their needs. Wages aren't necessarily a requirement for motivating people to do something productive and rewarding. In the future, when people have all of their basic needs met by technology, they will find meaningful activities, that contribute to their survival and well-being, just as they did in the past.

And by the way, yes, that will include more play and art, more socializing. What's wrong with that? Are you one of these party poopers? Only your beloved wealthy capitalists can live a life of play, leisure, sports, art, exploration, adventure, but not the working-class? Maybe it's time for the working-class to do the same thanks to technology.

Furthermore, the state will shrink, and eventually whither away as technology advances and empowers consumers to produce everything they consume themselves without government infrastructure or assistance from anyone else. You cannot analyze and envision more, due to your lack of knowledge and vision. That's your problem. You want to keep humanity enslaved to capitalists, rather than freeing and empowering them with advanced technology.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Capitalism is based on who hold the means of production government or private interest. Wages are simply a necessary cost of doing business.

Government can be, much more democratic than private vested interests. At least our American government holds elections, when was the last time you or I voted to elect our managers in the workplace? Never, right? That doesn't happen. I would rather have a government that holds elections and respects my human rights, be my employer, than a private business enterprise that holds no elections and can fire me at any time, for no reason. I'll take my democratic government, as my employer, any day over a capitalist, only concerned with his "bottom line" (private profits).

Adam Smith, the father of capitalism identified private capitalist employers as "masters":

"What are the common wages of labor, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labor.

It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen." (Wealth Of Nations - Book I, Chapter VIII)

Do you like having "masters"?

 

[TruthNotBS]

In classic socialism there is no free market were prices are determined by supply and demand.

In classic socialism as defined by Marx, there is no private ownership of businesses. The workers in a business own it; that is, it becomes a coop. Workers are paid based on their contribution to production of goods. The workers would buy products from the various Coops in their area. The cost of products would be the cost of production. There is no profit.

In Marx's time, the early 18th century most economies were local that is most all goods were produces and consumed locally. When you attempt to apply Marx's theory nationally and internationally, the whole idea of coops falls apart. That is when goverment replaces the coops thus giving birth to communism.

The major problem with classic socialism or communism is that it ignores the basic human desire to acquire wealth, to own a bigger house, own more property. It destroys the desire to get head, to invent a better mousetrap.

In classic socialism there is no free market were prices are determined by supply and demand.

In reality, market prices have never been purely determined by supply and demand. The notion that they are is a simplistic ideal that ignores the complex web of external forces like monopolies, and systemic inequalities that distort the market. The idea that capitalism operates on a level playing field is a myth; power imbalances, corporate manipulation, and speculative bubbles constantly disrupt the so-called 'free market.' Even under capitalism, prices are often influenced more by those who hold the most capital and power rather than by any pure economic theory. This isn’t a failure of socialism, it’s an inherent flaw in the capitalist system you defend.

In classic socialism as defined by Marx, there is no private ownership of businesses. The workers in a business own it; that is, it becomes a coop. Workers are paid based on their contribution to production of goods. The workers would buy products from the various Coops in their area. The cost of products would be the cost of production. There is no profit.

Socialism is far more diverse than the narrow definition you’re trying to impose. It includes various expressions like anarchist socialism, libertarian socialism, vanguard party-centered socialism, and state-centered socialism, each with its own approach to ownership, markets, and governance. Some forms of socialism, such as market socialism or Democratic Socialism, do allow for markets, particularly in the consumer goods sector.

Lenin himself, towards the end of his life, recognized the potential for markets within a socialist framework. To the point where markets are sustainable, and functional, why not? Once advanced automation and artificial intelligence, replace wage labor, markets naturally wither away. Advanced production technology ensures the extinction of markets.

In these models of socialism that permit markets, the commanding heights of the economy or industries vital to the nation’s infrastructure like banking, finance, energy, and mining, are typically nationalized or at least partly nationalized, while other sectors may operate within a regulated market system.

This flexibility allows socialism to adapt to different economic realities and technological advancements. Flopper, your attempt to box socialism into a single rigid definition is not only inaccurate but ignores the rich diversity and adaptability that has allowed socialism to thrive in various forms around the world. Socialism is not confined to one model; it’s a spectrum of ideas all aimed at democratizing the economy and ensuring that the needs of the many are prioritized over the profits of the few.

I personally don't hate markets, but they should only exist to the extent that they're practical and functional. Once advanced automation and artificial intelligence come into the picture, that's the end of markets.

In Marx's time, the early 18th century most economies were local that is most all goods were produces and consumed locally. When you attempt to apply Marx's theory nationally and internationally, the whole idea of coops falls apart. That is when goverment replaces the coops thus giving birth to communism. The major problem with classic socialism or communism is that it ignores the basic human desire to acquire wealth, to own a bigger house, own more property. It destroys the desire to get head, to invent a better mousetrap.

Socialism allows the working class to collectively own the means of production, which in the modern age includes all of the advanced robotics, artificial intelligence, super-computers..etc. Communism is the final stage of socialism, when the individual consumer takes personal ownership of the means of production, thanks to even more advanced technology. So socialism and communism, constitute the ultimate self-empowerment and means to wealth, unlike capitalism which keeps people enslaved to a job. If you want to remain enslaved and sell yourself to a capitalist employer (or who Adam Smith called a "master"), then capitalism is your system. It undermines human progress and concentrates wealth and power at the top of the pyramid, leaving everyone else living in scarcity.

Capitalism doesn't innovate, people with a vision do, and those inventors often have philanthropic, humanitarian motives and resolve, unconcerned with money or getting rich. You reduce the human drive to invent and extend human dominion over the environment to private capital accumulation (i.e. profits), but it's actually a natural consequence of living in a universe that is constantly trying to kill us, not the pursuit of profits. Profits often hinder human progress, due to product-designed obsolescence (products created to break within a certain time frame, to increase demand and new sales), capitalists monopolizing industries, and obsolete technology, to maintain their market share and control.

Capitalists are often more concerned with marketing and selling goods and services than with the research and development of new technology and products. The government often gets involved in the research and development of new technology then capitalists hop on for the ride and invest. Government is crucial for the development of advanced technology, capitalism isn't. Why? Government has more resources and will develop new technology to serve the public good, rather than a capitalist's "bottom line". The government develops technology without the need for or interest in profits. The government's "bottom line" is the public good, not marketability.

​

 

[TruthNotBS]

When people say they want socialism, I don't believe they understand what socialism actually is. I believe they want a more regulated form of capitalism and more social services. I don't think they want to abolish private ownership of all businesses.

Socialism doesn't require abolishing the private ownership of ALL businesses. Socialism can allow private property within certain legal, and regulatory parameters. To the extent that markets can exist, within the consumer goods and services sector, I don't see why they shouldn't, provided they're regulated, and in concert with the general economic plan of the socialist state. That might sound a bit intrusive for most capitalists here in America but it doesn't have to be. Being a business owner in a socialist-run economy might better ensure your business' success. You have more of a chance of succeeding with socialism than without it.

Don't believe me? Ask them:

Rank	Parent	Subsidy Value	Number of Awards
1	Boeing	$15,496,865,703	958
2	Intel	$8,421,707,656	135
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,524,714,800	792
5	Micron Technology	$6,790,131,915	21
6	Amazon.com	$5,823,705,434	460
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Venture Global LNG	$4,338,702,441	8
11	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
12	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	217
13	Sempra Energy	$3,828,022,782	51
14	NRG Energy	$3,415,751,518	266
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Walt Disney	$2,543,219,673	265
20	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$2,364,054,012	7
23	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
24	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
25	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
28	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
29	Toyota	$2,071,010,689	239
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Brookfield Corporation	$1,979,408,388	288
32	Paramount Global	$1,974,249,897	342
33	Comcast	$1,927,402,844	405
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,917,119,478	241
35	Samsung Electronics	$1,891,136,597	41
36	Apple Inc.	$1,845,004,670	63
37	Nissan	$1,842,814,165	98
38	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,830,986,253	1,200
39	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,740,972,699	1,151
41	Energy Transfer	$1,736,836,843	175
42	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
43	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
44	General Electric	$1,645,135,367	958
45	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
46	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
47	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,563,595,610	64
48	General Atomics	$1,510,875,891	112
49	IBM Corp.	$1,497,901,697	368
50	Lockheed Martin	$1,462,674,082	325
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
53	Corning Inc.	$1,391,603,359	401
54	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
55	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
56	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,284,014,883	285
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,193,950,954	797
61	CF Industries	$1,134,394,215	131
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
68	SK Holdings	$960,550,283	8
69	SkyWest	$944,296,654	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	60
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$897,750,089	594
73	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
74	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
75	SK Hynix	$866,700,000	2
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	93
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$798,426,128	956
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$786,835,708	219
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$774,590,441	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$683,066,388	510
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	633
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Eli Lilly	$623,326,368	79
97	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
98	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79

Download results as CSV or XML or Save your searc

The wealthy American capitalist ruling class loves socialism when it serves them, not when it serves the working class.

​

 

[blackhawk]

The key words are they want to their problem is they have opposition in the form of the courts and a Congress that they did not have enough control over to do what they want. Look at the proposal of Kamala for wanting to put price controls on stores and look at the countries that have tried and the kind of government they had.

 

[Flopper]

That sounds beautiful, but the problem is that you're describing what occurred in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, not now. Automation today, unlike in the past, is intelligent and fully autonomous. It doesn't need a human operator anymore. Your assumption that it will create more tech-repair jobs is ignoring the fact that this technology repairs itself. It regularly debugs, runs diagnostic maintenance, and literally, repairs itself. Moreover, the new jobs that this technology will create won't compensate for the tens of millions of jobs it will replace. Not everyone can become a high-paid tech, and those that can, won't have that job for long, due to the aforementioned fact that this intelligent technology maintains and repairs itself.

Over half of America lives paycheck to paycheck, hand to mouth, and can barely make ends meet, yet you assert that they're going to be better off when intelligent automation and autonomous machines take their jobs. No, you're quite confused in your assessment of the situation.




That sounds nice, but the billionaires, who are the real experts in commerce, don't agree with you. You simply don't understand what advanced automation and artificial intelligence is capable of. It replaces practically all jobs, even white-collar jobs. Practically everything.

​

These billionaires know that without a UBI (Universal Basic Income) or UI (Universal Income), capitalism will collapse due to a lack of wages. Without wages, there aren't enough paying consumers, hence the market shrinks, until it's no longer worth investing in or profitable. This is why they're all hoping the government intervenes and creates an artificial, unproductive, "consumer-serf", that receives money from the government in order to purchase the goods and services the capitalist class (the current private owners of production) are selling. Without that UBI (which by default will shortly become a UI, the only income people have), people become homeless and starve. That's why we need socialist production ASAP.



Yes, you're proving my point. Those warehouse and delivery jobs are being automated too. Everything is being automated by intelligent robots and AI. These autonomous machines can do everything, and that's unprecedented in the history of human production. In the past there was always a new opportunity of employment, something else people could do, to earn a wage, but the era of successful workforce reallocation within the capitalist system, is behind us. It's no longer a viable solution or option as it was in the past, before technology became intelligent and autonomous.



That's what your wealthy capitalist gods do, but just like they can dedicate themselves to some type of meaningful, personally rewarding work, irrespective of their lack of need or threat of scarcity, so can everyone else. They're not special in that sense, because that's a human trait.

For tens of thousands of years, human beings have worked without wages, because they had to survive and meet their needs. Wages aren't necessarily a requirement for motivating people to do something productive and rewarding. In the future, when people have all of their basic needs met by technology, they will find meaningful activities, that contribute to their survival and well-being, just as they did in the past.

And by the way, yes, that will include more play and art, more socializing. What's wrong with that? Are you one of these party poopers? Only your beloved wealthy capitalists can live a life of play, leisure, sports, art, exploration, adventure, but not the working-class? Maybe it's time for the working-class to do the same thanks to technology.

Furthermore, the state will shrink, and eventually whither away as technology advances and empowers consumers to produce everything they consume themselves without government infrastructure or assistance from anyone else. You cannot analyze and envision more, due to your lack of knowledge and vision. That's your problem. You want to keep humanity enslaved to capitalists, rather than freeing and empowering them with advanced technology.

Yet during last 44 years of every increasing automation, the number employed has increased from 99 million to163 million people, the most every employed.

Yes AI does remarkable things and I expect many new businesses will be created to take advantage of this new technology.

Just for starters we will see many new jobs created in

• Business software.
• Cloud computing.
• Computer science.
• Data centers.
• IT management.
• Networking.
• Security.
• Software development.

I have a friend that works in business security systems. He believes AI will more than double the size of their business.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Yet during last 44 years of every increasing automation, the number employed has increased from 99 million to163 million people, the most every employed.

Yes AI does remarkable things and I expect many new businesses will be created to take advantage of this new technology.

Just for starters we will see many new jobs created in

• Business software.
• Cloud computing.
• Computer science.
• Data centers.
• IT management.
• Networking.
• Security.
• Software development.

I have a friend that works in business security systems. He believes AI will more than double the size of their business.

You're just regurgitating the same argument, ignoring all of the points I made. The automation of the past, wasn't nearly as intelligent nor autonomous. Our 21st century automation and AI, is like nothing we've ever had before. The list of markets and industries you just listed will be completely run by artificial intelligence and robotics within the next ten to fifteen years. Practically everything you've mentioned so far in all of your posts, are being replaced by AI.

I'm a CNC coder by trade, and for three years I trained the AI that is taking my job. CNC machine operators and coders like me are going the way of the dodo, within the next ten years. The AI does most of the work for me, how long do you think I can continue with this racket? I'm still making a great hourly wage, with benefits. I almost feel guilty hehehe. How long do you think I can continue convincing my employer to pay me for work I'm no longer doing? Seriously, I still do a few things, but in ten years, forget it. Looking at the tech today, I will be out of a job around the time I'm retiring in my 60s. AI will completely replace me.

 

[Flopper]

Socialism doesn't require abolishing the private ownership of ALL businesses. Socialism can allow private property within certain legal, and regulatory parameters. To the extent that markets can exist, within the consumer goods and services sector, I don't see why they shouldn't, provided they're regulated, and in concert with the general economic plan of the socialist state. That might sound a bit intrusive for most capitalists here in America but it doesn't have to be. Being a business owner in a socialist-run economy might better ensure your business' success. You have more of a chance of succeeding with socialism than without it.

Don't believe me? Ask them:

Rank	Parent	Subsidy Value	Number of Awards
1	Boeing	$15,496,865,703	958
2	Intel	$8,421,707,656	135
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,524,714,800	792
5	Micron Technology	$6,790,131,915	21
6	Amazon.com	$5,823,705,434	460
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Venture Global LNG	$4,338,702,441	8
11	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
12	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	217
13	Sempra Energy	$3,828,022,782	51
14	NRG Energy	$3,415,751,518	266
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Walt Disney	$2,543,219,673	265
20	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$2,364,054,012	7
23	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
24	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
25	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
28	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
29	Toyota	$2,071,010,689	239
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Brookfield Corporation	$1,979,408,388	288
32	Paramount Global	$1,974,249,897	342
33	Comcast	$1,927,402,844	405
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,917,119,478	241
35	Samsung Electronics	$1,891,136,597	41
36	Apple Inc.	$1,845,004,670	63
37	Nissan	$1,842,814,165	98
38	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,830,986,253	1,200
39	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,740,972,699	1,151
41	Energy Transfer	$1,736,836,843	175
42	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
43	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
44	General Electric	$1,645,135,367	958
45	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
46	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
47	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,563,595,610	64
48	General Atomics	$1,510,875,891	112
49	IBM Corp.	$1,497,901,697	368
50	Lockheed Martin	$1,462,674,082	325
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
53	Corning Inc.	$1,391,603,359	401
54	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
55	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
56	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,284,014,883	285
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,193,950,954	797
61	CF Industries	$1,134,394,215	131
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
68	SK Holdings	$960,550,283	8
69	SkyWest	$944,296,654	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	60
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$897,750,089	594
73	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
74	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
75	SK Hynix	$866,700,000	2
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	93
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$798,426,128	956
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$786,835,708	219
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$774,590,441	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$683,066,388	510
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	633
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Eli Lilly	$623,326,368	79
97	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
98	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79

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The wealthy American capitalist ruling class loves socialism when it serves them, not when it serves the working class.

​

Only classical

Socialism doesn't require abolishing the private ownership of ALL businesses. Socialism can allow private property within certain legal, and regulatory parameters. To the extent that markets can exist, within the consumer goods and services sector, I don't see why they shouldn't, provided they're regulated, and in concert with the general economic plan of the socialist state. That might sound a bit intrusive for most capitalists here in America but it doesn't have to be. Being a business owner in a socialist-run economy might better ensure your business' success. You have more of a chance of succeeding with socialism than without it.

Don't believe me? Ask them:

Rank	Parent	Subsidy Value	Number of Awards
1	Boeing	$15,496,865,703	958
2	Intel	$8,421,707,656	135
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,524,714,800	792
5	Micron Technology	$6,790,131,915	21
6	Amazon.com	$5,823,705,434	460
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Venture Global LNG	$4,338,702,441	8
11	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
12	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	217
13	Sempra Energy	$3,828,022,782	51
14	NRG Energy	$3,415,751,518	266
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Walt Disney	$2,543,219,673	265
20	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$2,364,054,012	7
23	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
24	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
25	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
28	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
29	Toyota	$2,071,010,689	239
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Brookfield Corporation	$1,979,408,388	288
32	Paramount Global	$1,974,249,897	342
33	Comcast	$1,927,402,844	405
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,917,119,478	241
35	Samsung Electronics	$1,891,136,597	41
36	Apple Inc.	$1,845,004,670	63
37	Nissan	$1,842,814,165	98
38	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,830,986,253	1,200
39	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,740,972,699	1,151
41	Energy Transfer	$1,736,836,843	175
42	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
43	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
44	General Electric	$1,645,135,367	958
45	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
46	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
47	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,563,595,610	64
48	General Atomics	$1,510,875,891	112
49	IBM Corp.	$1,497,901,697	368
50	Lockheed Martin	$1,462,674,082	325
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
53	Corning Inc.	$1,391,603,359	401
54	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
55	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
56	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,284,014,883	285
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,193,950,954	797
61	CF Industries	$1,134,394,215	131
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
68	SK Holdings	$960,550,283	8
69	SkyWest	$944,296,654	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	60
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$897,750,089	594
73	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
74	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
75	SK Hynix	$866,700,000	2
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	93
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$798,426,128	956
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$786,835,708	219
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$774,590,441	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$683,066,388	510
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	633
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Eli Lilly	$623,326,368	79
97	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
98	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79

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The wealthy American capitalist ruling class loves socialism when it serves them, not when it serves the working class.

​

I agree Socialism like Capitalism and other economic systems are not all or none. Our economy is regulated capitalism with some parts of the economy that are socialist. That is the case in most countries today. The amount of capitalism, amount regulation, and amount socialism is what differentiates economic systems today.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Only classical

I agree Socialism like Capitalism and other economic systems are not all or none. Our economy is regulated capitalism with some parts of the economy that are socialist. That is the case in most countries today. The amount of capitalism, amount regulation, and amount socialism is what differentiates economic systems today.

Regulation and social services. I believe regulation shouldn't incapacitate a business enterprise's ability to make a profit, and the government should provide social services, without undermining the private sector. I believe to the extent that it can exist, we should have a private sector in the area of healthcare, education..etc, along with a public option. The government will also provide healthcare and an education.

 

[Flopper]

Regulation and social services. I believe regulation shouldn't incapacitate a business enterprise's ability to make a profit, and the government should provide social services, without undermining the private sector. I believe to the extent that it can exist, we should have a private sector in the area of healthcare, education..etc, along with a public option. The government will also provide healthcare and an education.

We do have a private sector in the areas of healthcare and education. The government highly regulates health insurance and healthcare. How private it is, is debatable.

There really are very few business sectors in which the degree of regulation is so great that government is actually controlling the means of production. However, there are a number of business sectors in which government regulation are a burden.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Turning off the oil spigots for one. How about trying to jail a POTUS candidate on fake and/or frivolous charges?

Trying to assassinate a political rival. Show trials of political opponents.

 

[Moonglow]

Why, because of the cost or the better outcomes?

Because of the kooky religions

 

[Edgetho]

There has never been a successful socialist State. The only one that came even close was Germany's National Socialists. And we know what happened there.

While socialism is beautiful in theory, it doesn't work because it always seems to be implemented by, and run by, the stupidest motherfuckers to ever walk the surface of the Planet -- socialists.

And they really are dumb motherfuckers. Just reading the replies in here, you can tell how incredibly stupid they are, they don't even understand their own theories or how they're supposed to work.

"Ignorant" you can work with. Stupid, as in here, isn't worth a fart in a hurricane.

You can have socialism in a Capitalist Country. At least, in this Country you can.

Take a State and install it. Go for it, you bunch of idiot College Sophomore bitches. Do it.

Nobody will stop you. Take The Peoples Republic of Taxachussetts and go for it. They're halfway there. Go for it. How about Minniesodor?? Do it, motherfuckers.

Problem is, dimocrap FILTH want socialism for THEM while the rest of the Country works their asses off to pay for it and bail them out when they fail. Which is every fucking time.

Fucking idiots. Try reading Drapers "The Two Souls of Socialism". That will be the last time I capitalize that disgusting word but I do have respect for Draper.

Then maybe Marx himself. BTW, Marx did NOT want gooberminet ownership of the means of production. That was Engels idea. Engels was a douche. Marx hated goobermint almost as much as the average MAGA voter. FACT. communism is when goobermint 'just fades away'. A total lack of goobermint NOT the overpowering presence of it. Idiots.

This thread is like listening to a bunch of Junior High Schoolers discuss Einstein's Relativity. Except the 14 year-olds are smarter.

 

[Failzero]

Socialism also allows markets provided they're under the government's control and economic plan. Capitalism can exist under socialism. It has to be well-regulated.

Smart Regulation ?

 

[Foolardi]

The rich don't build squat, they pop off their yappers to get moola and then divvy out for their own self-interest, while living off of other people's labor.

At least under the right system of government, politicians are accountable to the electorate and can be recalled, impeached, or voted out of office and replaced with someone else. The US Government can and does build plenty of stuff, so you're quite confused and don't know what you're talking about. The government is whatever we want it to be, including our constitution. We decide that as the American people, today, under our present circumstances, not those that existed over 200 years ago.

I specifically used the word " Politicians " Not " rich ".
So you have to lie in order to make yer Leftist pap seem
relevant.The Government has to abide all the checks and balances
put in place { in good faith } by elected officials.
We no longer have " good faith " elected officials.
More so by the week.The United States cannot sustain any
more leftism.We are being Lefted out as is.