TruthNotBS
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Exactly you're wrong again like always, it's actually capitalism that undermines democracy, in both politics and the workplace. Socialism is much more democratic.
When exactly does the Democrats' socialism kick in?
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Rambunctious
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TruthNotBS
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It's relevant and you're the liar, because the rich are the ones behind the politicians, paying them to vote for legislation that serves their interests, often to the detriment of the American public.
Partly thanks to the rich that bribe them and turn them into their faithful cronies.
It's right-wing politics and economics that are destroying the American working class.
TruthNotBS
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Yes, or are you for child labor and businesses polluting the environment or preparing food from a filthy kitchen? Do you like cockroaches or mouse poo in your cheeseburger? There is such a thing as a smart-regulation, yes. A well-regulated private sector that serves the public good.Smart Regulation ?
Socialism has greater potential for democracy, but it also has greater potential for dictatorship. Under capitalism, the rich will always be able to subvert democracy with their greater ability to contribute to political campaigns, and to dominate political discussion by their ownership of the mass media.
Nevertheless, under socialism a dictator can control the economy and decree high incomes for himself and his cronies. This is what has happened in North Korea.
I prefer social democracy. It is the closest approximation to democratic socialism that has worked. In social democracy there are regular contested elections, a mixed economy, a high minimum wage, strong labor unions, and a well financed public sector of the economy paid for by steeply progressive taxation.
You're not listening. That's why I prefer capitalism to socialism. Most of the time majority rule isn't necessary, nor desirable. Most of the time, there's no need to force the will of the majority on everyone else. Liberty is a better way to go.
TruthNotBS
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Gobbledygook. Capitalism is much more authoratarian than socialism. The only reason that socialists centralize power politically, at a national scale, is when it's under attack by capitalist powers like the US. The American empire controls the world's reserve currency and the international banking system. It has the leverage to turn any country into an economic leper, with no one wanting to go near it. In Cuba for example, if any cargo ship anchors in one of its ports, it will not be able to anchor in any port within American territory, be it in the continental USA or the Caribbean or South Pacific. etc, for at least six months (180 days). Who's willing to sacrifice their access to the American market over Cuba's?
Countries that outwardly identify as having a Marxist, socialist economy and government, are brutally attacked by the United States, forcing these developing socialist countries to hunker down and become less democratic, to survive. The United States also becomes more authoritarian and less democratic, when it's at war. During WW2, the US government forced Japanese Americans into concentration camps.
Not to speak of what the USA did to people of color, like Blacks, Native Americans, and Hispanics (American colonialism and bullying in Latin America). I was born in February of 1973, just a few years after Black people got their civil rights, being recognized as full human beings. This is after 100 years of slavery being abolished. Even decades after slavery was made illegal, things like this were happening in the USA:
They always do that. Cronyism is endemic to capitalism, and so are monopolies. The wealthy capitalist class will ALWAYS, try to control legislation, the media, markets, you name it. Even when our country goes to war, it will control everything, in pursuit of profits. It will drive humanity to the brink of annihilation, as it is doing now with Ukraine and Gaza. NATO has to expand into Eastern Europe because it's $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, profitable. NATO is a CASH COW. The military industrial complex loves NATO, and will start WW3 with Russia, poking the bear over Ukraine. Capitalism is the great destroyer.
Indeed.
North Korea is under horrible sanctions and it's essentially still in a state of war with the South and US. I'm sure Kim Jong Un lives better than the average citizen of the DPRK/North Korea, but despite that North Koreans have housing, food, and employment guaranteed to them, including healthcare and education.
For every dictatorship that you point to that has a socialist economy, I can point to an authoritarian nation that has a capitalist-market-run economy.
Moreover, socialism has a system called "council socialism" or democratic socialism, where people have much more power than what we have here in the US. In counsel communism or socialism, worker councils or "councils of the people", hold elections whenever the people of that district request one, and they elect their delegates to serve in Congress. If any delegate elected by a council, is determined to be corrupt or incompetent, the delegate can be recalled at any time. Can you imagine if we had that here in America? The ability to elect our members of Congress at any time and even recall/impeach them, through a simple process?
That was the original Soviet model until Soviet Russia was invaded by 250 thousand troops from the USA, UK, France, and 10 other countries. The Russian word "Soviet" means "Council". Why did the USSR become more authoritarian in the 1920s? The war.
Stalin then built up Soviet Russia in the 1930s (when most of the West was in a deep economic depression)
, turning it into an industrial juggernaut, greatly improving the standard of living of the vast majority of Soviet citizens. Then it was invaded by 4 million German, anti-Marxist socialists. The German National Socialists, in their fight against what they saw as a Jewish Bolshevik conspiracy, invaded Soviet Russia to take its resources and territory for the Third Reich.
WW2 in Europe was essentially a war between socialists. Seven out of ten German soldiers were fighting in Russia. Democracy is always undermined by war and economic sabotage. If we are to compare capitalism and socialism, when it comes to freedom and genuinely improving people's lives in the long-term, consistently, socialism wins. In the future, socialism is inevitable and the only solution due to advanced automation and artificial intelligence.
That's good, and I support social democracy, which according to right-wing Republicans is "COMMIE". Unfortunately, the capitalist class ALWAYS takes control of the government and everything else, in pursuit of its "bottom line" or profits. It starts wars, it creates gross inequality, and undermines people's rights, health, education, housing..etc.
Soon, due to advanced automation and artificial intelligence, we're going to be forced, by necessity, to adopt socialism. That's the only way forward if we want to avoid being reduced to unproductive, worthless consumer-serfs under techno-feudalism.
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Yes
Yes. We should only resort to majority rule when it's actually necessary for everyone to conform to the same course of action. Otherwise people should be free to decide for themselves how to live.
Do you have any specific questions?
TruthNotBS
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What you just described is a democracy, Majority rules what legislation we all have to conform by. I prefer the rule of the majority to the rule of a small minority. If we would allow the majority vote to determine government policy and legislation, we would be living in a much better country. Not perfect but much better nonetheless. Common sense rule. The sense of the commons is usually closer in line with what the vast majority of people need and want.
Modern democracy is compatible with both democratic socialism and regulated capitalisms. Economic freedom is essential to the survival of capitatim. Pure capitalism and socialism are just constructs of economic and pollical philosophers.
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If life in North Korea is that good then why do they make it a crime to leave the country without permission, punishable by death. Those who try to leave illegally and are caught may face severe consequences, including torture, forced labor, and life in prison.
Also, why was the Berlin Wall built? It was not built to keep victims of capitalism from entering the Workers' Paradise. It was built to keep in victims of Communist socialism.
With the possible exception of a few years during the depts of the Great Depression, working class people in the United States always enjoyed a higher standard of living than working class people in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The Bolshevik takeover in Russia was a terribly unfortunate wrong turn for the international Left.
I seriously doubt that most liberals in the world identify themselves as Bolsheviks or communist. The Bolshevik takeover was more than unfortunate for hundreds of millions that died and were enslaved. Today the communist party in Russia has less than 50,000 members and is shrinking.
TruthNotBS
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Save it, spare me the BS:
In Saudi Arabia, a capitalist country, you lose your head for having a few ounces of marijuana or being a fortune-teller. As a defender of capitalism, you have zero moral high ground upon which to stand and point your crooked feculent finger at communists. You're a pro-capitalist imperialist, ignoring the millions of people who have been ruined and murdered for the sake of filling the coffers of American capitalist ruling elites. The American military-industrial complex loves war and is now holding the world hostage under the specter of WW3 with Russia over Ukraine. They love to expand NATO right up to Russia's border, poking the bear as much as possible to create strife and chaos. You have no moral high-ground.
If you want to debate economics, go ahead, fire, I'm here and ready. If you're going to resort to these silly "you're bad and mean, capitalism is nice and sweet, good, good....", go play your hypocrite game with someone else. I have better things to do with my precious time and energy, than go back and forth with you on whose "bad baddy bad bad".
GLASNOST
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After having read your responses to the above two points specific questions won't render any logical reply.
TruthNotBS
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Sure genius, the American working class was the world's aristocracy of labor, after WW2. If you know your history, the US came out of the war unscathed, unlike the Soviets who lost 28 million people and much of the infrastructure that they had built in the previous twenty years. During the great depression in the US and Western Europe, the Soviets were actually doing quite well, to the point that thousands of American and Western European engineers and scientists migrated to Stalin's Soviet Russia, to contribute to the new nation's development.
After WW2, the Soviets had to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps and rebuild their new country. Unlike Western Europe and Japan, the Soviets didn't have the "Marshal Plan", funded by the US, to help them redevelop their countries. The Soviets had to do it on their own, and in less than 15 years, it was a nuclear power, launching the first satellites and even people into space.
The Soviets despite all of the challenges built their economy to the point that it was the second largest economy in the world by 1970, only second to the USA. Not bad for a new country, constantly being economically sanctioned and attacked militarily by powerful, well established, older, much more entrenched, and developed enemies, like the USA, huh? The US had over 100 years of industrialization ahead of the USSR.
If you notice, Berlin was in Eastern Germany, a part of Germany that was communist, and for security reasons primarily the wall was built. They had American, British, and French forces in the heart of their country, so they built a wall around Berlin. Now if you claim that it was also built to keep people from East Germany defecting into Western-controlled Berlin, you are partly correct. I'm not going to deny it and lie to you.
So let me get this straight, you invest your resources in training scientists, engineers, and doctors, to serve your country, when it is trying to get back on its feet after a devastating world war, that killed 14% of your population (28 million people), and the enemy across your border is constantly tempting those highly educated and trained citizens of your country, to defect and drain your nation of its intelligentsia and academics. It's called "brain drain", and yes East Germany and the USSR did restrict travel outside of its borders for its citizens., as a matter of survival.
The USSR was essentially always at war, in an existential battle against extremely powerful enemies. If it wasn't a hot war, it was a cold war, draining resources that could've been used to improve the lives of Soviet citizens.
What your capitalist propaganda does not tell you is that despite those restrictions, Soviet citizens still did travel outside of the USSR, and also extensively within the USSR, which was an enormous country, with many different interesting places to visit. The average Soviet citizen went on vacation just as much as their American counterparts, if not more.
The Soviet Union developed an extensive system of programs and institutions to provide recreational activities and vacation opportunities for its working-class citizens. These programs were part of the state's commitment to ensuring that all citizens had access to leisure and rest, which were considered essential for maintaining a healthy and productive society. Here's a list of some key Soviet programs and institutions dedicated to recreational activities and vacations:
1. Trade Union-Run Sanatoria and Resorts
- Sanatoria: The Soviet Union had a vast network of sanatoria, which were health resorts where workers could go for rest and recuperation. These facilities were often located in scenic areas, such as the Black Sea coast, the Caucasus Mountains, or the Crimean Peninsula. Workers could receive medical treatments while enjoying the natural environment.
- Resorts: In addition to sanatoria, the USSR developed beach resorts, mountain lodges, and other vacation spots where workers and their families could spend their holidays. The most famous of these were in Sochi, Yalta, and the Georgian coast.
2. Pioneers Camps
- Young Pioneer Camps: These were summer camps for children, organized by the Young Pioneers, the Soviet youth organization. The most famous was Artek, located on the Crimean Peninsula, which was an elite camp where selected children could spend their summer. However, there were thousands of other Pioneer camps across the Soviet Union, where children could participate in sports, crafts, cultural activities, and learn about Soviet values.
3. Intourist
- Intourist: Initially established to manage foreign tourism, Intourist also organized domestic travel and vacations for Soviet citizens. It provided packages that included transportation, accommodation, and excursions to various destinations within the Soviet Union.
4. Dom Otdykha (Houses of Rest)
- Dom Otdykha: These were holiday homes or "Houses of Rest" where workers could take short breaks. They were often located in the countryside or near forests, rivers, and lakes, offering a tranquil environment for relaxation. These facilities were less formal than sanatoria and focused on leisure rather than medical treatment.
5. Tourism and Excursion Clubs
- Tourism Clubs: Various tourism clubs and societies were established to promote hiking, skiing, and other outdoor activities. The All-Union Central Council of Trade Unions (VTsSPS) played a significant role in organizing these activities, ensuring workers had access to recreational facilities across the country.
- Gorkom detouristov: These were hiking clubs that organized group hiking trips, often involving lengthy and challenging routes in the mountains, forests, and other natural settings.
6. Soviet Trade Unions
- Trade Union Vouchers: Soviet trade unions were heavily involved in distributing vouchers for vacations at sanatoria, resorts, and holiday homes. These vouchers were often subsidized or even free, depending on the worker's contribution to their workplace. The trade unions also organized excursions, cultural activities, and sports events.
7. Cultural and Recreational Parks
- Parks of Culture and Rest: Nearly every Soviet city had parks specifically designed for recreational activities. These parks often featured sports facilities, theaters, dance floors, and playgrounds. The most famous example is Gorky Park in Moscow.
8. All-Union Leninist Young Communist League (Komsomol) Activities
- Komsomol: The youth organization known as Komsomol organized a wide range of recreational activities for young workers, including sports, camping trips, and cultural events. Komsomol camps and expeditions were popular among young people and provided opportunities to explore the Soviet Union.
9. Sports and Fitness Programs
- Spartakiad: These were large-scale sports events organized by trade unions and the government, providing opportunities for workers to engage in sports competitions. They were part of the broader Soviet focus on physical fitness.
- GTO (Ready for Labor and Defense): The GTO program was a physical fitness program that encouraged all citizens to participate in sports and maintain physical health. It included various sports and fitness challenges that were accessible to the working class.
10. Soviet Passenger Ships and River Cruises
- River Cruises: The Soviet Union offered river cruises along major rivers like the Volga, Don, and Dnieper. These cruises were popular for vacations, offering scenic views and cultural experiences.
- Passenger Ships: The Soviet fleet included passenger ships that operated routes along the Black Sea, Baltic Sea, and other bodies of water, providing vacation experiences for workers and their families.
11. Kolhoznik Recreation Programs
- Kolhoznik: Collective farm workers (kolkhozniks) also had access to vacation programs, often organized by the state or collective farms. These included trips to sanatoria, resorts, and vacation homes, similar to those available to urban workers.
12. Dachas
- Dachas: While not a state program, the dacha culture was widespread in the Soviet Union. Many workers had access to small countryside cottages (dachas) where they could spend weekends and vacations gardening, relaxing, and enjoying nature.
1. Lacy-Zarubin Agreement (1958)
- This agreement, formally known as the U.S.-Soviet Cultural Exchange Agreement, was a significant initiative between the USSR and the United States that allowed for scientific, educational, and cultural exchanges. The agreement facilitated the exchange of students, scholars, and scientists between the two countries, fostering mutual understanding and cooperation.
2. Fulbright Program (USSR Participation)
- Although the Fulbright Program is a U.S. initiative, during certain periods, the USSR participated in it, allowing Soviet scholars to study in the United States and American scholars to visit the USSR. This program provided opportunities for academic exchanges and collaborative research.
3. IREX (International Research & Exchanges Board)
- IREX was established in 1968 to promote academic exchanges between the United States and the USSR (and later with other Eastern European countries). It facilitated research exchanges, language programs, and scholarly collaborations between Soviet and American academics.
4. Soviet-American Joint Commission on Scientific and Technical Cooperation (1972)
- This commission was established as part of the broader détente between the USSR and the United States. It facilitated cooperation in various scientific fields, including physics, space research, and medicine. The commission organized joint research projects, conferences, and exchanges of scientists.
5. Intercosmos Program
- Though primarily a space exploration program, Intercosmos included international cooperation in space research and technology development. While it mainly involved Soviet allies, it also included Western European countries and, to some extent, collaboration with NASA and other Western space agencies.
6. Soviet-Eastern Bloc Educational Exchanges
- While most educational exchanges were within the Eastern Bloc, there were specific programs that allowed for interaction with Western European countries. These exchanges were often part of bilateral agreements and focused on technical education, language studies, and cultural exchange.
7. UNESCO Involvement
- The USSR was actively involved in UNESCO and used this platform to engage with Western countries in educational and scientific programs. UNESCO facilitated exchanges of students, scholars, and scientists, particularly in fields like education, science, and culture.
8. Individual University Agreements
- Several Soviet universities had specific agreements with Western institutions that allowed for student and faculty exchanges. These agreements often focused on particular areas of study, such as engineering, physics, or languages.
9. Scientific Conferences and Symposia
- The USSR organized and participated in international scientific conferences and symposia where Soviet scientists interacted with their Western counterparts. These events often led to joint publications and collaborative research projects.
10. European Scientific Cooperation
- The USSR engaged in various forms of scientific cooperation with Western European countries through bilateral agreements. This included the exchange of scientists and participation in joint research initiatives, particularly in fields like physics, chemistry, and biology.
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And you won't.
Read my post.
TruthNotBS
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I did and I responded.
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