What Will It Take For Peace?

[toomuchtime_]

Thank you. Why not a single Pali supporter here to deny the op?

I thought I did.

See I happen to support both the Palestinian people and the Israeli people- but not every aspect of either the Palestinian or Israeli leadership.

What you posited wasn't realistic- and Israel would never let it happen- under current the current situation.

Why wouldn't that by itself result in a lasting peace? Because just like Trump's 'plan' doesn't work- it takes an agreement from both sides for a peace plan to work. And really will take a sea change in attitude on both sides.

Palestinians have decades of resentment built up by being treated as 'less than' everyone else- non-citizens with few of the rights we take for granted- and yes have been oppressed by their Israeli overlords. Israeli's have a very valid paranoia regarding their security, and a very valid concern about attacks by the Palestinian. Neither of those will go away overnight.

I think what would really need to happen is a graduated plan- and would have to start with the Palestinians renouncing violence, and an agreement on what issues Palestinians would want to see addressed for the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a legitimate nation with a right to exist. And Israel would have to lay out what conditions the Palestinians need to meet in order for Israel to recognize Palestine as a legitimate nation with a a right to exist.

And there would need to be buy in from the Arab nations to help support Palestine built up their economy as the country opened up.

Those are just my thoughts as a casual student of the history of the Middle East.

No, the first step would have to be for the Palestinians to organize a government that can credibly offer peace to Israel because at present and for the foreseeable future, there in no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel. The Trump plan sets that as a condition for US recognition of any Palestinian state and leaves everything else up to negotiations between Israel and the Arabs in Judea and Samaria and Gaza with the plan only as the basis for negotiations and not binding.

So basically you are calling for the status quo.
With the Palestinians excluded again.

No, I am stating that there is no viable alternative to the status quo since there is not political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel.

And I am saying that arguing that is only in the interest of the conservatives in Israel who never want a 2 state solution.

I agree with you about the governance problem the Palestinians have. Neither of the two governments is in control of the entire territory claimed by Palestinians.

But I think refusing to negotiate with the Palestinians again just leaves the status quo. And the status quo means the violence will continue.

In fact it is the Palestinians who are refusing to negotiate with Israel, not the other way around. There are many things to negotiate about but peace and a Palestinian state are not among them since there is no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel and it doesn't seem likely there will be in the foreseeable future.

 

[MJB12741]

Thank you. Why not a single Pali supporter here to deny the op?

I thought I did.

See I happen to support both the Palestinian people and the Israeli people- but not every aspect of either the Palestinian or Israeli leadership.

What you posited wasn't realistic- and Israel would never let it happen- under current the current situation.

Why wouldn't that by itself result in a lasting peace? Because just like Trump's 'plan' doesn't work- it takes an agreement from both sides for a peace plan to work. And really will take a sea change in attitude on both sides.

Palestinians have decades of resentment built up by being treated as 'less than' everyone else- non-citizens with few of the rights we take for granted- and yes have been oppressed by their Israeli overlords. Israeli's have a very valid paranoia regarding their security, and a very valid concern about attacks by the Palestinian. Neither of those will go away overnight.

I think what would really need to happen is a graduated plan- and would have to start with the Palestinians renouncing violence, and an agreement on what issues Palestinians would want to see addressed for the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a legitimate nation with a right to exist. And Israel would have to lay out what conditions the Palestinians need to meet in order for Israel to recognize Palestine as a legitimate nation with a a right to exist.

And there would need to be buy in from the Arab nations to help support Palestine built up their economy as the country opened up.

Those are just my thoughts as a casual student of the history of the Middle East.

No, the first step would have to be for the Palestinians to organize a government that can credibly offer peace to Israel because at present and for the foreseeable future, there in no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel. The Trump plan sets that as a condition for US recognition of any Palestinian state and leaves everything else up to negotiations between Israel and the Arabs in Judea and Samaria and Gaza with the plan only as the basis for negotiations and not binding.

So basically you are calling for the status quo.
With the Palestinians excluded again.

No, I am stating that there is no viable alternative to the status quo since there is not political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel.

And I am saying that arguing that is only in the interest of the conservatives in Israel who never want a 2 state solution.

I agree with you about the governance problem the Palestinians have. Neither of the two governments is in control of the entire territory claimed by Palestinians.

But I think refusing to negotiate with the Palestinians again just leaves the status quo. And the status quo means the violence will continue.

Let us get this straight. You want Israel to negotiate PEACE with the PA & Hamas??? Get serious.

 

[MJB12741]

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

Israel and Egypt managed to come to peace with each other. I think the problem is the lack of willingness on both sides to find a solution.

The reality is that both the Palestinians and the Israelis both actually exist in land claimed by the other. Neither is going away. Both sides are using the issue for their own political benefit.

Israel absolutely has the right to live in peace. But so do the Palestinians.

Palestinians have to renounce violence, and recognize the State of Israel and its right to exist.
Israel has to decide whether to integrate Palestinians into Israel or allow the creation of an independent state.

The status quo is not feasible for either side- though politicians on both sides use this for their own political purposes.

But the status quo works better for Israel than for Palestinians. So the let the Palestinians come up with Peace offerings to Israel for a change if they don't like it.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What will it take for peace?
⁜→ MJB12741, Syriusly, et al,

I am not sure at all that the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) would ever offer a Peace Proposal under their current regime. That does not fit in the path they have taken.

But the status quo works better for Israel than for Palestinians. So the let the Palestinians come up with Peace offerings to Israel for a change if they don't like it.

(COMMENT)

The HoAP knows that their unconventional warfare (UW)) effort cannot hope to defeat the Israelis. That is a simple fact. But it is part and parcel of a combined UW, Propaganda / Media Program, Economic Inteference, and a posture of a continuous Political Pressure → that will prolong the conflict during which the HoAP seek to gradually wear-down the other by a series of small-scale actions. Each small-scale action by itself is insignificant; but when combined all the other small-scale actions, begin to mangle the environment in such a way as to test the sustainability of Israel.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Dogmaphobe]

For there to be peace, the subset of Arabs living in the area would need to form a true identity rather than one that exists merely as a propaganda tool.

How can there ever be peace with a group whose very sense if identity hinges on nothing more substantial than wanting to murder those of the other group?

 

[toomuchtime_]

RE: What will it take for peace?
⁜→ MJB12741, Syriusly, et al,

I am not sure at all that the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) would ever offer a Peace Proposal under their current regime. That does not fit in the path they have taken.

But the status quo works better for Israel than for Palestinians. So the let the Palestinians come up with Peace offerings to Israel for a change if they don't like it.

(COMMENT)

The HoAP knows that their unconventional warfare (UW)) effort cannot hope to defeat the Israelis. That is a simple fact. But it is part and parcel of a combined UW, Propaganda / Media Program, Economic Inteference, and a posture of a continuous Political Pressure → that will prolong the conflict during which the HoAP seek to gradually wear-down the other by a series of small-scale actions. Each small-scale action by itself is insignificant; but when combined all the other small-scale actions, begin to mangle the environment in such a way as to test the sustainability of Israel.


Most Respectfully,
R

That may be the theory, but the attacks have little cumulative effect on Israel. Again, it is a mistake to think these attacks are politically motivated. They are hate crimes plain and simple. What some people like to call Palestinian nationalism is really just institutional anti semitism, nothing more. This is why Arafat and Abbas both turned down offers that would have given the so called Palestinians nearly all the land they said they wanted, because the issue was never the land for them, it was always their hatred of Jews.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What will it take for peace?
⁜→ MJB12741, Syriusly, toomuchtime, et al,

I think I'll agree to disagree.

That may be the theory, but the attacks have little cumulative effect on Israel. Again, it is a mistake to think these attacks are politically motivated. They are hate crimes plain and simple. What some people like to call Palestinian nationalism is really just institutional anti semitism, nothing more. This is why Arafat and Abbas both turned down offers that would have given the so called Palestinians nearly all the land they said they wanted, because the issue was never the land for them, it was always their hatred of Jews.

(COMMENT)

The cumulative effect is not (so much) the tangible or monetary effect. It may not even have and significant domestic impact. But that is not where the real damage is being done.

Take a look at this (short) list:

◈ Madrid (1991–93)
◈ 4.2 Oslo (1993–)
◈ 1996–99 agreements

• 4.3.1 Hebron agreement;dealt with the redeployment of Israeli military forces
• 4.3.2 Wye River Memorandum; negotiated to implement the Oslo Accords

◈ Camp David 2000 Summit
◈ Clinton's "Parameters" (2000)
◈ Taba talks (2001)
◈ Beirut summit
◈ The "Road Map" for peace (2001)
◈ 2006 Franco-Italian-Spanish Middle East Peace Plan

• Two-state solution
• Three-state solution

◈ Israeli–Palestinian talks in 2007 and 2009
✦ Fatah–Hamas Mecca Agreement (2007) (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ 2010 direct talks
✦ 2011 Cairo accords (2011) (Reconciliation Table Talks)
✦ Israeli Peace Initiative (April 6, 2011)
✦ May 2012 Cairo agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ 2013–14 talks
◈ Abbas' 2014 Peace Plan
✦ 2014 Fatah–Hamas Gaza Agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
✦ 2017 Fatah–Hamas Agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ US-Saudi Peace Plan proposes​

All of these are "external" attempts to bring peace (the opposite of conflict) to the region. The Quartet on the Middle East (United Nations, United States, European Union, and Russia Federation) was not assembled for something insignificant (little cumulative effect).

Yes, in any 100 years of conflict, there will always be some hatred emerging. But that does not make the various attacks true hate crimes - any more than any other of the great wars. And just because the total tangle impact on Israel makes for no real headlines, the retaliatory response makes the wire serve every time. The entire case for "war crimes" is based on the "retaliatory response."

28 January 2020
ICC Pre-Trial Chamber invites Palestine, Israel, interested States and others to submit observations​

Yes, the combined UW, Propaganda / Media Program, Economic Interference, and a posture of a continuous Political Pressure may "have little cumulative effect on Israel" --- but that might turn out to be a very myopic view.

Just one man's thoughts from the back of the room.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toomuchtime_]

RE: What will it take for peace?
⁜→ MJB12741, Syriusly, toomuchtime, et al,

I think I'll agree to disagree.

That may be the theory, but the attacks have little cumulative effect on Israel. Again, it is a mistake to think these attacks are politically motivated. They are hate crimes plain and simple. What some people like to call Palestinian nationalism is really just institutional anti semitism, nothing more. This is why Arafat and Abbas both turned down offers that would have given the so called Palestinians nearly all the land they said they wanted, because the issue was never the land for them, it was always their hatred of Jews.

(COMMENT)

The cumulative effect is not (so much) the tangible or monetary effect. It may not even have and significant domestic impact. But that is not where the real damage is being done.

Take a look at this (short) list:

◈ Madrid (1991–93)
◈ 4.2 Oslo (1993–)
◈ 1996–99 agreements

• 4.3.1 Hebron agreement;dealt with the redeployment of Israeli military forces
• 4.3.2 Wye River Memorandum; negotiated to implement the Oslo Accords

◈ Camp David 2000 Summit
◈ Clinton's "Parameters" (2000)
◈ Taba talks (2001)
◈ Beirut summit
◈ The "Road Map" for peace (2001)
◈ 2006 Franco-Italian-Spanish Middle East Peace Plan

• Two-state solution
• Three-state solution

◈ Israeli–Palestinian talks in 2007 and 2009
✦ Fatah–Hamas Mecca Agreement (2007) (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ 2010 direct talks
✦ 2011 Cairo accords (2011) (Reconciliation Table Talks)
✦ Israeli Peace Initiative (April 6, 2011)
✦ May 2012 Cairo agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ 2013–14 talks
◈ Abbas' 2014 Peace Plan
✦ 2014 Fatah–Hamas Gaza Agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
✦ 2017 Fatah–Hamas Agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ US-Saudi Peace Plan proposes​

All of these are "external" attempts to bring peace (the opposite of conflict) to the region. The Quartet on the Middle East (United Nations, United States, European Union, and Russia Federation) was not assembled for something insignificant (little cumulative effect).

Yes, in any 100 years of conflict, there will always be some hatred emerging. But that does not make the various attacks true hate crimes - any more than any other of the great wars. And just because the total tangle impact on Israel makes for no real headlines, the retaliatory response makes the wire serve every time. The entire case for "war crimes" is based on the "retaliatory response."

28 January 2020
ICC Pre-Trial Chamber invites Palestine, Israel, interested States and others to submit observations​

Yes, the combined UW, Propaganda / Media Program, Economic Interference, and a posture of a continuous Political Pressure may "have little cumulative effect on Israel" --- but that might turn out to be a very myopic view.

Just one man's thoughts from the back of the room.

Most Respectfully,
R

The bottom line is Israel continues to become richer, safer and with broadening ties around the world, so with all the "noise" you have been citing, the cumulative effect has been negligible. Hatred of Jews, not nationalist ambitions, is the only rational explanation for why they turned down Barak's and Olmert's offers.

You are essentially arguing that these morons who go on stabbing sprees are calculating the long term effect of these incidents on world opinion in order to force Israel to give them what they want, but if they were able to think that way, they would see that they were already offered nearly everything the say they want and they turned it down. They turned it down because this was never about politics or land but always about their hatred of Jews alone.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

RE: What will it take for peace?
⁜→ MJB12741, Syriusly, toomuchtime, et al,

I think I'll agree to disagree.

That may be the theory, but the attacks have little cumulative effect on Israel. Again, it is a mistake to think these attacks are politically motivated. They are hate crimes plain and simple. What some people like to call Palestinian nationalism is really just institutional anti semitism, nothing more. This is why Arafat and Abbas both turned down offers that would have given the so called Palestinians nearly all the land they said they wanted, because the issue was never the land for them, it was always their hatred of Jews.

(COMMENT)

The cumulative effect is not (so much) the tangible or monetary effect. It may not even have and significant domestic impact. But that is not where the real damage is being done.

Take a look at this (short) list:

◈ Madrid (1991–93)
◈ 4.2 Oslo (1993–)
◈ 1996–99 agreements

• 4.3.1 Hebron agreement;dealt with the redeployment of Israeli military forces
• 4.3.2 Wye River Memorandum; negotiated to implement the Oslo Accords

◈ Camp David 2000 Summit
◈ Clinton's "Parameters" (2000)
◈ Taba talks (2001)
◈ Beirut summit
◈ The "Road Map" for peace (2001)
◈ 2006 Franco-Italian-Spanish Middle East Peace Plan

• Two-state solution
• Three-state solution

◈ Israeli–Palestinian talks in 2007 and 2009
✦ Fatah–Hamas Mecca Agreement (2007) (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ 2010 direct talks
✦ 2011 Cairo accords (2011) (Reconciliation Table Talks)
✦ Israeli Peace Initiative (April 6, 2011)
✦ May 2012 Cairo agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ 2013–14 talks
◈ Abbas' 2014 Peace Plan
✦ 2014 Fatah–Hamas Gaza Agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
✦ 2017 Fatah–Hamas Agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ US-Saudi Peace Plan proposes​

All of these are "external" attempts to bring peace (the opposite of conflict) to the region. The Quartet on the Middle East (United Nations, United States, European Union, and Russia Federation) was not assembled for something insignificant (little cumulative effect).

Yes, in any 100 years of conflict, there will always be some hatred emerging. But that does not make the various attacks true hate crimes - any more than any other of the great wars. And just because the total tangle impact on Israel makes for no real headlines, the retaliatory response makes the wire serve every time. The entire case for "war crimes" is based on the "retaliatory response."

28 January 2020
ICC Pre-Trial Chamber invites Palestine, Israel, interested States and others to submit observations​

Yes, the combined UW, Propaganda / Media Program, Economic Interference, and a posture of a continuous Political Pressure may "have little cumulative effect on Israel" --- but that might turn out to be a very myopic view.

Just one man's thoughts from the back of the room.

Most Respectfully,
R

Ate you unaware that Arafat was of the al Husseini clan and his Uncle the Mufti was a card carrying Nazi?


You should read some of the word of Matthias Kuntzel who has detailed how the Nazi ideology found fertile ground among those At and who would start calling themselved Palestinian later on.

 

[Mindful]

RE: What will it take for peace?
⁜→ MJB12741, Syriusly, toomuchtime, et al,f

I think I'll agree to disagree.

That may be the theory, but the attacks have little cumulative effect on Israel. Again, it is a mistake to think these attacks are politically motivated. They are hate crimes plain and simple. What some people like to call Palestinian nationalism is really just institutional anti semitism, nothing more. This is why Arafat and Abbas both turned down offers that would have given the so called Palestinians nearly all the land they said they wanted, because the issue was never the land for them, it was always their hatred of Jews.

(COMMENT)

The cumulative effect is not (so much) the tangible or monetary effect. It may not even have and significant domestic impact. But that is not where the real damage is being done.

Take a look at this (short) list:

◈ Madrid (1991–93)
◈ 4.2 Oslo (1993–)
◈ 1996–99 agreements

• 4.3.1 Hebron agreement;dealt with the redeployment of Israeli military forces
• 4.3.2 Wye River Memorandum; negotiated to implement the Oslo Accords

◈ Camp David 2000 Summit
◈ Clinton's "Parameters" (2000)
◈ Taba talks (2001)
◈ Beirut summit
◈ The "Road Map" for peace (2001)
◈ 2006 Franco-Italian-Spanish Middle East Peace Plan

• Two-state solution
• Three-state solution

◈ Israeli–Palestinian talks in 2007 and 2009
✦ Fatah–Hamas Mecca Agreement (2007) (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ 2010 direct talks
✦ 2011 Cairo accords (2011) (Reconciliation Table Talks)
✦ Israeli Peace Initiative (April 6, 2011)
✦ May 2012 Cairo agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ 2013–14 talks
◈ Abbas' 2014 Peace Plan
✦ 2014 Fatah–Hamas Gaza Agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
✦ 2017 Fatah–Hamas Agreement (Reconciliation Table Talks)
◈ US-Saudi Peace Plan proposes​

All of these are "external" attempts to bring peace (the opposite of conflict) to the region. The Quartet on the Middle East (United Nations, United States, European Union, and Russia Federation) was not assembled for something insignificant (little cumulative effect).

Yes, in any 100 years of conflict, there will always be some hatred emerging. But that does not make the various attacks true hate crimes - any more than any other of the great wars. And just because the total tangle impact on Israel makes for no real headlines, the retaliatory response makes the wire serve every time. The entire case for "war crimes" is based on the "retaliatory response."

28 January 2020
ICC Pre-Trial Chamber invites Palestine, Israel, interested States and others to submit observations​

Yes, the combined UW, Propaganda / Media Program, Economic Interference, and a posture of a continuous Political Pressure may "have little cumulative effect on Israel" --- but that might turn out to be a very myopic view.

Just one man's thoughts from the back of the room.

Most Respectfully,
R

Ate you unaware that Arafat was of the al Husseini clan and his Uncle the Mufti was a card carrying Nazi?


You should read some of the word of Matthias Kuntzel who has detailed how the Nazi ideology found fertile ground among those At and who would start calling themselved Palestinian later on.

 

[MJB12741]

Which will come first? Hell freezes over or peace between Israel & the Palestinians?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Which will come first? Hell freezes over or peace between Israel & the Palestinians?

Silly question since there is no such place as Hell and no such people as the Palestinians.

 

[Kondor3]

What will it take?

a. removal of all Muslim-Arabs from both the West Bank and Gaza; shipping them to Jordan

b. annexation by Israel of both the West Bank and Gaza

c. flooding of both the West Bank and Gaza with Jewish settlers

d. the balls to undertake (a)(b) and (c)

In effect, the proposed 1922 League of Nations Partition.

 

[MJB12741]

What will it take?

a. removal of all Muslim-Arabs from both the West Bank and Gaza; shipping them to Jordan

b. annexation by Israel of both the West Bank and Gaza

c. flooding of both the West Bank and Gaza with Jewish settlers

d. the balls to undertake (a)(b) and (c)

In effect, the proposed 1922 League of Nations Partition.

It appears heading to your solution thanks to the Palestinians. Sure hope they keep up the good work to leave Israel no other option like they did with Jordan when it took Black September to end that conflict. LET THERE BE PEACE ALREADY!

 

[MJB12741]

Seems to me any hope for peace between Israelis & Palestinians can only come from the peoples themselves against their current leaders. A revolution of sort to create better leadership for peace.

 

[member]

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

"Let us suppose:"

- Israel removes all Jews from all settlements
- grants Palestinians a right of return
- gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem
- removes the capital back to tel Aviv
- tears down all security fences
- & grants Palestinian self determination.








"Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians?"

 

[P F Tinmore]

What Will It Take For Peace?

Justice.

You Zionists will have to look up that term in the dictionary.

 

[Hollie]

What Will It Take For Peace?

Justice.

You Zionists will have to look up that term in the dictionary.

You Islamists don’t need a dictionary to look up Islamo-justice. It’s spelled out in your Korans and Hamas Charter.

 

[MJB12741]

What Will It Take For Peace?

Justice.

You Zionists will have to look up that term in the dictionary.

You mean "justice" like celebrating the deaths of Israeli's?

 

[toastman]

What Will It Take For Peace?

Justice.

You Zionists will have to look up that term in the dictionary.

Like handing out candy when Israelis are killed ?