What Will It Take For Peace?

[RoccoR]

RE: What Will It Take For Peace?
⁜→ Hollie, et al,

I think this is rather inciteful.

I do think there needed to be an acknowledgement of the religious perspectives pulsing away, especially on the islamic side, that furthers the conflict. Historically speaking, today's examples serve as well.

(COMMENT)

Back in 1999 (two decades ago now) I read book by Professor Noam Chomsky (Classics in Politics: The Culture of Terrorism). Early on in the book, he made an observation that I did not fully appreciate (or even understand) until much later on.

"In general, it is necessary to ensure that the domestic population remains largely inert, limited in the capacity to develop independent modes of thought and perception and to formulate and press effectively for alternative policies—even alternative institutional arrangements—that might well be seen as preferable if the framework of ideology were to be challenged."
​

I believe that you exhibit those qualities of "independent thought" and the "development of alternates." Whereas, I did not come to appreciate it until about my third time in Baghdad. I use to sit outside the door to the north wing of the palace. There is where the smokers took a moment to relax the old gray matter between the ears. And that is when I saw it. The views the staff held were not a result of independent thought, but rather mimicked the limited range of the boss. Certainly, that is what I was doing.

The Crusades of Islam across the Middle East and Europe were about land and power and conquest but also of a politico-religious ideology that calls to die and kill for the ongoing expansion of the adherents influence. I don’t think it’s a broad brush stroke to point out the reality we see. Competing religious faiths are under siege in virtually every moslem majority nation we witness.

(COMMENT)

Yes, and there it is.

It's not just wild-eyed Islamic killers with Kalashnikovs and high explosives that we have to contend with, it's this intolerant mindset that is the solid underpinning that motivates and inspires this utter disregard for equal rights. It's just as much an ideological battle as a martial one

(COMMENT)

This "intolerant mindset" is really the "limited in the capacity to develop independent modes of thought and perception and to formulate and press effectively for alternative policies" that Professor Chomsky points out.

You probably did not read his book, but you came to the same understanding by an "alternative" means. I find that remarkable.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[sparky]

So again I ask, what will it take for peace, .

them to WANT it....

the zions and Islamics have been at each others throats for a millennium

which is NOT America's fight, it's theirs , they need to sort it out or kill each other

The USofA should allow them to make this choice w/out intervention

~S~

 

[Mindful]

So again I ask, what will it take for peace, .

them to WANT it....

the zions and Islamics have been at each others throats for a millennium

which is NOT America's fight, it's theirs , they need to sort it out or kill each other

The USofA should allow them to make this choice w/out intervention

~S~

You had to sort out Europe.

And it didn't start out as your fight.

 

[MJB12741]

So again I ask, what will it take for peace, .

them to WANT it....

the zions and Islamics have been at each others throats for a millennium

which is NOT America's fight, it's theirs , they need to sort it out or kill each other

The USofA should allow them to make this choice w/out intervention

~S~

The Palis have objected to all of Israel's peace plans to "sort it out." So it sounds like you are in favor of an all out war, winner take all.

 

[MJB12741]

Hmmm! I wonder if this will help establish peace between Israeli's & Palestinians? Let us ask the Pali supporters.

Song proclaiming the "slaughter" of Jews uploaded in 11,200 versions on social network TikTok | PMW Analysis

 

[ForeverYoung436]

So again I ask, what will it take for peace, .

them to WANT it....

the zions and Islamics have been at each others throats for a millennium

which is NOT America's fight, it's theirs , they need to sort it out or kill each other

The USofA should allow them to make this choice w/out intervention

~S~

No. Millenium means 1,000 years. The current conflict is only about a hundred years old.

 

[Indeependent]

So again I ask, what will it take for peace, .

them to WANT it....

the zions and Islamics have been at each others throats for a millennium

which is NOT America's fight, it's theirs , they need to sort it out or kill each other

The USofA should allow them to make this choice w/out intervention

~S~

No. Millenium means 1,000 years. The current conflict is only about a hundred years old.

Which conflict?
Egypt and Hamas?
Syria and Lebanon?
Syria and Turkey?
Syria and Iraq?
Saudi Arabia and Iraq?

Oh, that’s right...
No Jews involved, not a conflict!

 

[Indeependent]

So again I ask, what will it take for peace, .

them to WANT it....

the zions and Islamics have been at each others throats for a millennium

which is NOT America's fight, it's theirs , they need to sort it out or kill each other

The USofA should allow them to make this choice w/out intervention

~S~

No. Millenium means 1,000 years. The current conflict is only about a hundred years old.

Which conflict?
Egypt and Hamas?
Syria and Lebanon?
Syria and Turkey?
Syria and Iraq?
Saudi Arabia and Iraq?

Oh, that’s right...
No Jews involved, not a conflict!

Oops!
I left out...
Jordan and the Palestinians.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

So again I ask, what will it take for peace, .

them to WANT it....

the zions and Islamics have been at each others throats for a millennium

which is NOT America's fight, it's theirs , they need to sort it out or kill each other

The USofA should allow them to make this choice w/out intervention

~S~

No. Millenium means 1,000 years. The current conflict is only about a hundred years old.

Which conflict?
Egypt and Hamas?
Syria and Lebanon?
Syria and Turkey?
Syria and Iraq?
Saudi Arabia and Iraq?

Oh, that’s right...
No Jews involved, not a conflict!

Were you talking to me? I was just correcting sparky's timeline about the specific conflict that's the subject of this Board we're all on. As for your post, I agree wholeheartedly that the world is too focused on this one conflict to the exclusion of many others in the world. You forgot to mention the vicious civil war that's going on in Yemen right now.

 

[Indeependent]

So again I ask, what will it take for peace, .

them to WANT it....

the zions and Islamics have been at each others throats for a millennium

which is NOT America's fight, it's theirs , they need to sort it out or kill each other

The USofA should allow them to make this choice w/out intervention

~S~

No. Millenium means 1,000 years. The current conflict is only about a hundred years old.

Which conflict?
Egypt and Hamas?
Syria and Lebanon?
Syria and Turkey?
Syria and Iraq?
Saudi Arabia and Iraq?

Oh, that’s right...
No Jews involved, not a conflict!

Were you talking to me? I was just correcting sparky's timeline about the specific conflict that's the subject of this Board we're all on. As for your post, I agree wholeheartedly that the world is too focused on this one conflict to the exclusion of many others in the world. You forgot to mention the vicious civil war that's going on in Yemen right now.

I was talking to anyone that actually believes that Israel is part of any conflict in the Middle East involving Arabs.
Move any of these Arab nations anywhere and a “conflict” will arise.
Arabs are a conflict.

 

[sparky]

I was just correcting sparky's timeline about the specific conflict that's the subject of this Board we're all on

I did not specify specific modern vs. history betwixt the two

~S~

 

[Syriusly]

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

Israel and Egypt managed to come to peace with each other. I think the problem is the lack of willingness on both sides to find a solution.

The reality is that both the Palestinians and the Israelis both actually exist in land claimed by the other. Neither is going away. Both sides are using the issue for their own political benefit.

Israel absolutely has the right to live in peace. But so do the Palestinians.

Palestinians have to renounce violence, and recognize the State of Israel and its right to exist.
Israel has to decide whether to integrate Palestinians into Israel or allow the creation of an independent state.

The status quo is not feasible for either side- though politicians on both sides use this for their own political purposes.

 

[toastman]

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

Israel and Egypt managed to come to peace with each other. I think the problem is the lack of willingness on both sides to find a solution.

The reality is that both the Palestinians and the Israelis both actually exist in land claimed by the other. Neither is going away. Both sides are using the issue for their own political benefit.

Israel absolutely has the right to live in peace. But so do the Palestinians.

Palestinians have to renounce violence, and recognize the State of Israel and its right to exist.
Israel has to decide whether to integrate Palestinians into Israel or allow the creation of an independent state.

The status quo is not feasible for either side- though politicians on both sides use this for their own political purposes.

Well said buddy !

 

[MJB12741]

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

Israel and Egypt managed to come to peace with each other. I think the problem is the lack of willingness on both sides to find a solution.

The reality is that both the Palestinians and the Israelis both actually exist in land claimed by the other. Neither is going away. Both sides are using the issue for their own political benefit.

Israel absolutely has the right to live in peace. But so do the Palestinians.

Palestinians have to renounce violence, and recognize the State of Israel and its right to exist.
Israel has to decide whether to integrate Palestinians into Israel or allow the creation of an independent state.

The status quo is not feasible for either side- though politicians on both sides use this for their own political purposes.

Well said buddy !

Thank you. Why not a single Pali supporter here to deny the op?

 

[Syriusly]

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

Israel and Egypt managed to come to peace with each other. I think the problem is the lack of willingness on both sides to find a solution.

The reality is that both the Palestinians and the Israelis both actually exist in land claimed by the other. Neither is going away. Both sides are using the issue for their own political benefit.

Israel absolutely has the right to live in peace. But so do the Palestinians.

Palestinians have to renounce violence, and recognize the State of Israel and its right to exist.
Israel has to decide whether to integrate Palestinians into Israel or allow the creation of an independent state.

The status quo is not feasible for either side- though politicians on both sides use this for their own political purposes.

Well said buddy !

Thank you. Why not a single Pali supporter here to deny the op?

I thought I did.

See I happen to support both the Palestinian people and the Israeli people- but not every aspect of either the Palestinian or Israeli leadership.

What you posited wasn't realistic- and Israel would never let it happen- under current the current situation.

Why wouldn't that by itself result in a lasting peace? Because just like Trump's 'plan' doesn't work- it takes an agreement from both sides for a peace plan to work. And really will take a sea change in attitude on both sides.

Palestinians have decades of resentment built up by being treated as 'less than' everyone else- non-citizens with few of the rights we take for granted- and yes have been oppressed by their Israeli overlords. Israeli's have a very valid paranoia regarding their security, and a very valid concern about attacks by the Palestinian. Neither of those will go away overnight.

I think what would really need to happen is a graduated plan- and would have to start with the Palestinians renouncing violence, and an agreement on what issues Palestinians would want to see addressed for the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a legitimate nation with a right to exist. And Israel would have to lay out what conditions the Palestinians need to meet in order for Israel to recognize Palestine as a legitimate nation with a a right to exist.

And there would need to be buy in from the Arab nations to help support Palestine built up their economy as the country opened up.

Those are just my thoughts as a casual student of the history of the Middle East.

 

[rylah]

Mordechai Kedar How will hostile Muslim societies
guarantee peace to Jewish Israel

 

[toomuchtime_]

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

Israel and Egypt managed to come to peace with each other. I think the problem is the lack of willingness on both sides to find a solution.

The reality is that both the Palestinians and the Israelis both actually exist in land claimed by the other. Neither is going away. Both sides are using the issue for their own political benefit.

Israel absolutely has the right to live in peace. But so do the Palestinians.

Palestinians have to renounce violence, and recognize the State of Israel and its right to exist.
Israel has to decide whether to integrate Palestinians into Israel or allow the creation of an independent state.

The status quo is not feasible for either side- though politicians on both sides use this for their own political purposes.

Well said buddy !

Thank you. Why not a single Pali supporter here to deny the op?

I thought I did.

See I happen to support both the Palestinian people and the Israeli people- but not every aspect of either the Palestinian or Israeli leadership.

What you posited wasn't realistic- and Israel would never let it happen- under current the current situation.

Why wouldn't that by itself result in a lasting peace? Because just like Trump's 'plan' doesn't work- it takes an agreement from both sides for a peace plan to work. And really will take a sea change in attitude on both sides.

Palestinians have decades of resentment built up by being treated as 'less than' everyone else- non-citizens with few of the rights we take for granted- and yes have been oppressed by their Israeli overlords. Israeli's have a very valid paranoia regarding their security, and a very valid concern about attacks by the Palestinian. Neither of those will go away overnight.

I think what would really need to happen is a graduated plan- and would have to start with the Palestinians renouncing violence, and an agreement on what issues Palestinians would want to see addressed for the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a legitimate nation with a right to exist. And Israel would have to lay out what conditions the Palestinians need to meet in order for Israel to recognize Palestine as a legitimate nation with a a right to exist.

And there would need to be buy in from the Arab nations to help support Palestine built up their economy as the country opened up.

Those are just my thoughts as a casual student of the history of the Middle East.

No, the first step would have to be for the Palestinians to organize a government that can credibly offer peace to Israel because at present and for the foreseeable future, there in no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel. The Trump plan sets that as a condition for US recognition of any Palestinian state and leaves everything else up to negotiations between Israel and the Arabs in Judea and Samaria and Gaza with the plan only as the basis for negotiations and not binding.

 

[Syriusly]

Let us suppose Israel removes all Jews from all settlements, grants Palestinians a right of return, gives Palestinians all of Jerusalem, removes the capital back to tel Aviv, tears down all security fences & grants Palestinian self determination.

Is there ANYONE nuts enough to believe even this would end in a lasting peace between Israel & the Palestinians? So again I ask, what will it take for peace, other than a total destruction & elimination of Israel & all Jews? And that will not ever happen.

Israel and Egypt managed to come to peace with each other. I think the problem is the lack of willingness on both sides to find a solution.

The reality is that both the Palestinians and the Israelis both actually exist in land claimed by the other. Neither is going away. Both sides are using the issue for their own political benefit.

Israel absolutely has the right to live in peace. But so do the Palestinians.

Palestinians have to renounce violence, and recognize the State of Israel and its right to exist.
Israel has to decide whether to integrate Palestinians into Israel or allow the creation of an independent state.

The status quo is not feasible for either side- though politicians on both sides use this for their own political purposes.

Well said buddy !

Thank you. Why not a single Pali supporter here to deny the op?

I thought I did.

See I happen to support both the Palestinian people and the Israeli people- but not every aspect of either the Palestinian or Israeli leadership.

What you posited wasn't realistic- and Israel would never let it happen- under current the current situation.

Why wouldn't that by itself result in a lasting peace? Because just like Trump's 'plan' doesn't work- it takes an agreement from both sides for a peace plan to work. And really will take a sea change in attitude on both sides.

Palestinians have decades of resentment built up by being treated as 'less than' everyone else- non-citizens with few of the rights we take for granted- and yes have been oppressed by their Israeli overlords. Israeli's have a very valid paranoia regarding their security, and a very valid concern about attacks by the Palestinian. Neither of those will go away overnight.

I think what would really need to happen is a graduated plan- and would have to start with the Palestinians renouncing violence, and an agreement on what issues Palestinians would want to see addressed for the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a legitimate nation with a right to exist. And Israel would have to lay out what conditions the Palestinians need to meet in order for Israel to recognize Palestine as a legitimate nation with a a right to exist.

And there would need to be buy in from the Arab nations to help support Palestine built up their economy as the country opened up.

Those are just my thoughts as a casual student of the history of the Middle East.

No, the first step would have to be for the Palestinians to organize a government that can credibly offer peace to Israel because at present and for the foreseeable future, there in no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel. The Trump plan sets that as a condition for US recognition of any Palestinian state and leaves everything else up to negotiations between Israel and the Arabs in Judea and Samaria and Gaza with the plan only as the basis for negotiations and not binding.

So basically you are calling for the status quo.
With the Palestinians excluded again.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Israel and Egypt managed to come to peace with each other. I think the problem is the lack of willingness on both sides to find a solution.

The reality is that both the Palestinians and the Israelis both actually exist in land claimed by the other. Neither is going away. Both sides are using the issue for their own political benefit.

Israel absolutely has the right to live in peace. But so do the Palestinians.

Palestinians have to renounce violence, and recognize the State of Israel and its right to exist.
Israel has to decide whether to integrate Palestinians into Israel or allow the creation of an independent state.

The status quo is not feasible for either side- though politicians on both sides use this for their own political purposes.

Well said buddy !

Thank you. Why not a single Pali supporter here to deny the op?

I thought I did.

See I happen to support both the Palestinian people and the Israeli people- but not every aspect of either the Palestinian or Israeli leadership.

What you posited wasn't realistic- and Israel would never let it happen- under current the current situation.

Why wouldn't that by itself result in a lasting peace? Because just like Trump's 'plan' doesn't work- it takes an agreement from both sides for a peace plan to work. And really will take a sea change in attitude on both sides.

Palestinians have decades of resentment built up by being treated as 'less than' everyone else- non-citizens with few of the rights we take for granted- and yes have been oppressed by their Israeli overlords. Israeli's have a very valid paranoia regarding their security, and a very valid concern about attacks by the Palestinian. Neither of those will go away overnight.

I think what would really need to happen is a graduated plan- and would have to start with the Palestinians renouncing violence, and an agreement on what issues Palestinians would want to see addressed for the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a legitimate nation with a right to exist. And Israel would have to lay out what conditions the Palestinians need to meet in order for Israel to recognize Palestine as a legitimate nation with a a right to exist.

And there would need to be buy in from the Arab nations to help support Palestine built up their economy as the country opened up.

Those are just my thoughts as a casual student of the history of the Middle East.

No, the first step would have to be for the Palestinians to organize a government that can credibly offer peace to Israel because at present and for the foreseeable future, there in no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel. The Trump plan sets that as a condition for US recognition of any Palestinian state and leaves everything else up to negotiations between Israel and the Arabs in Judea and Samaria and Gaza with the plan only as the basis for negotiations and not binding.

So basically you are calling for the status quo.
With the Palestinians excluded again.

No, I am stating that there is no viable alternative to the status quo since there is not political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel.

 

[Syriusly]

Well said buddy !

Thank you. Why not a single Pali supporter here to deny the op?

I thought I did.

See I happen to support both the Palestinian people and the Israeli people- but not every aspect of either the Palestinian or Israeli leadership.

What you posited wasn't realistic- and Israel would never let it happen- under current the current situation.

Why wouldn't that by itself result in a lasting peace? Because just like Trump's 'plan' doesn't work- it takes an agreement from both sides for a peace plan to work. And really will take a sea change in attitude on both sides.

Palestinians have decades of resentment built up by being treated as 'less than' everyone else- non-citizens with few of the rights we take for granted- and yes have been oppressed by their Israeli overlords. Israeli's have a very valid paranoia regarding their security, and a very valid concern about attacks by the Palestinian. Neither of those will go away overnight.

I think what would really need to happen is a graduated plan- and would have to start with the Palestinians renouncing violence, and an agreement on what issues Palestinians would want to see addressed for the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a legitimate nation with a right to exist. And Israel would have to lay out what conditions the Palestinians need to meet in order for Israel to recognize Palestine as a legitimate nation with a a right to exist.

And there would need to be buy in from the Arab nations to help support Palestine built up their economy as the country opened up.

Those are just my thoughts as a casual student of the history of the Middle East.

No, the first step would have to be for the Palestinians to organize a government that can credibly offer peace to Israel because at present and for the foreseeable future, there in no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel. The Trump plan sets that as a condition for US recognition of any Palestinian state and leaves everything else up to negotiations between Israel and the Arabs in Judea and Samaria and Gaza with the plan only as the basis for negotiations and not binding.

So basically you are calling for the status quo.
With the Palestinians excluded again.

No, I am stating that there is no viable alternative to the status quo since there is not political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel.

And I am saying that arguing that is only in the interest of the conservatives in Israel who never want a 2 state solution.

I agree with you about the governance problem the Palestinians have. Neither of the two governments is in control of the entire territory claimed by Palestinians.

But I think refusing to negotiate with the Palestinians again just leaves the status quo. And the status quo means the violence will continue.