What should U.S. policy be towards the Ukraine conflict?

[gipper]

Apparently I do...and it seems to be more than you do.

So you agree? The war was provoked by the West and the peace agreement terminated by the West. Okay good.

 

[JohnDB]

So you agree? The war was provoked by the West and the peace agreement terminated by the West. Okay good.

No...you don't have the foggiest clue as to what you are talking about...I know for you it's a game and you have picked a team to win....
I have not...because I know the people. It's a real war destroying people's lives and livelihoods.

Go away little boy until you grow up.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

So you agree? The war was provoked by the West and the peace agreement terminated by the West. Okay good.

The stupidity that this war — long in the making & the product of deep historical forces as well as errors by the West and also long-term profound Russian chauvinism and Putin’s terrible decision to invade and crush Ukrainian independence — the idea that all this can be simply described as “provoked by the West” … only a simple-minded fan of Russian propaganda could swallow.

I suppose the USSR’s invasion of Hungary in 1956 & Czechoslovakia in 1968, and the popular people’s struggle against Russian domination of Eastern Europe, and their tearing down the wall and ending the carefully agreed to division of post-war Germany …was all simply “provoked by the West.”

The same with the so-called “peace agreement.” There was never a real “peace agreement.” There were at least 4 rounds of peace discussions in the first months after the invasion — when it was hardly clear if Ukraine could count on significant military support from the then very hesitant and disunited NATO. Also, it only later became clear that the Russians would be routed by the Ukrainian army not just from Kiev but even from Ukraine’s #2 city Kharkiv in the East. That is what really sealed the death of the early tentative negotiations.

There certainly might have been a “peace on Russian terms” that Ukraine would have had to accept if the West was divided and the Ukrainian people and Army never showed their own power and elan, but that is hardly what our almost always wrong-headed libertarian gipper says.

Indeed, Gipper has been fundamentally taking Russia’s side, or at least consistently repeating the line of Western apologists for Russia and Putin like ex- Col. Douglass MacGregor.

This doesn’t mean everything Gipper says is wrong, or that Ukrainians themselves may not eventually be exhausted by the war, and be “forced” to come to terms and sign a peace treaty that allows Russia to annex significant parts of their territory. It would be a tragedy if Russia is not humiliated and Putin’s invasion succeeds.

Russia, despite its own dramatic losses & economic contraction & political regression, still has three times the manpower of Ukraine and some 200 billion a year guaranteed oil income.

 

[luiza]

Russia, despite its own dramatic losses & economic contraction & political regression, still has three times the manpower of Ukraine and some 200 billion a year guaranteed income from oil income.

Where are the dramatic Russian losses ? It is generally agreed by experts that that Dead ratio is about ten to one in Russia’s favour and that Kyiv has lost around half a million . Economically Russia has expanded and BRICS plus its expansion simply underwrites continued growth and prosperity . It might pay to check whether what Americans would love to believe is near the truth or just a crock of poor propaganda .

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Where are the dramatic Russian losses ? It is generally agreed by experts that that Dead ratio is about ten to one in Russia’s favour and that Kyiv has lost around half a million . Economically Russia has expanded and BRICS plus its expansion simply underwrites continued growth and prosperity . It might pay to check whether what Americans would love to believe is near the truth or just a crock of poor propaganda .

Thanks for providing ridiculous Russian propaganda figures. 10-to-1 Ukrainian to Russian (soldier?) deaths? Lol!

Certainly, since this war is being fought almost entirely on Ukrainian territory, Ukrainian civilian casualties and infrastructure suffer heavily. Russia would like to leave Ukraine an empty dead buffer zone, since they know now they can’t just take it. So sure Ukrainians suffer — because they are resisting Russian soldiers who invaded Ukrainian territory and continue their bloody war of aggression with missiles and whatever else they have. Are you proud your side is the aggressor in this war?

 

[gipper]

The stupidity that this war — long in the making & the product of deep historical forces as well as errors by the West and also long-term profound Russian chauvinism and Putin’s terrible decision to invade and crush Ukrainian independence — the idea that all this can be simply described as “provoked by the West” … only a simple-minded fan of Russian propaganda could swallow.

I suppose the USSR’s invasion of Hungary in 1956 & Czechoslovakia in 1968, and the popular people’s struggle against Russian domination of Eastern Europe, and their tearing down the wall and ending the carefully agreed to division of post-war Germany …was all simply “provoked by the West.”

The same with the so-called “peace agreement.” There was never a real “peace agreement.” There were at least 4 rounds of peace discussions in the first months after the invasion — when it was hardly clear if Ukraine could count on significant military support from the then very hesitant and disunited NATO. Also, it only later became clear that the Russians would be routed by the Ukrainian army not just from Kiev but even from Ukraine’s #2 city Kharkiv in the East. That is what really sealed the death of the early tentative negotiations.

There certainly might have been a “peace on Russian terms” that Ukraine would have had to accept if the West was divided and the Ukrainian people and Army never showed their own power and elan, but that is hardly what our almost always wrong-headed libertarian gipper says.

Indeed, Gipper has been fundamentally taking Russia’s side, or at least consistently repeating the line of Western apologists for Russia and Putin like ex- Col. Douglass MacGregor.

This doesn’t mean everything Gipper says is wrong, or that Ukrainians themselves may not eventually be exhausted by the war, and be “forced” to come to terms and sign a peace treaty that allows Russia to annex significant parts of their territory. It would be a tragedy if Russia is not humiliated and Putin’s invasion succeeds.

Russia, despite its own dramatic losses & economic contraction & political regression, still has three times the manpower of Ukraine and some 200 billion a year guaranteed oil income.

The war was provoked and peace could have been achieved had Biden not sent his butt boy Boris to shit can it.

Its been admitted by the West, they were stalling Russia with no intent on peace during the years of negotiations in the Minsk Accords. All while building up their military to fight Russia. Rather disingenuous don’t you think?

I didn’t take you as an establishment statist dupe, but I can be convinced otherwise. Saying I support Putin is so juvenile and ignorant. Statist too.

All dumb Joe had to do was tell Ukraine stop killing Russians in the Donbas and no NATO. War averted. Simple no?

The West wanted this war. Provoked it and continues it.

THINK!

Statists are the dumbest MFers of all time.

 

[gipper]

Thanks for providing ridiculous Russian propaganda figures. 10-to-1 Ukrainian to Russian (soldier?) deaths? Lol!

Certainly, since this war is being fought almost entirely on Ukrainian territory, Ukrainian civilian casualties and infrastructure suffer heavily. Russia would like to leave Ukraine an empty dead buffer zone, since they know now they can’t just take it. So sure Ukrainians suffer — because they are resisting Russian soldiers who invaded Ukrainian territory and continue their bloody war of aggression with missiles and whatever else they have. Are you proud your side is the aggressor in this war?

Lol. You’re the one who’s accepted propaganda. You’d think after all the decades of war lies by our government and media you’d learn, but you never do.

You support every US war of choice, while condemning Russia for protecting itself.

Can’t fix stupid.

 

[gipper]

No...you don't have the foggiest clue as to what you are talking about...I know for you it's a game and you have picked a team to win....
I have not...because I know the people. It's a real war destroying people's lives and livelihoods.

Go away little boy until you grow up.

Lol. No one on this board is more anti-war than me. However I can recognize when a war is provoked, unlike you.

This war was easily avoided, but the West wanted war. If you can’t see that, you’re blind.

Nothing enriches the establishment like war.

You should be upset with the USG, Biden and NATO, if you could think.

 

[ESay]

The war was provoked and peace could have been achieved had Biden not sent his butt boy Boris to shit can it.

Its been admitted by the West, they were stalling Russia with no intent on peace during the years of negotiations in the Minsk Accords. All while building up their military to fight Russia. Rather disingenuous don’t you think?

I didn’t take you as an establishment statist dupe, but I can be convinced otherwise. Saying I support Putin is so juvenile and ignorant. Statist too.

All dumb Joe had to was tell Ukraine stop killing Russians in the Donbas and no NATO. War averted. Simple no?

The West wanted this war. Provoked it and continues it.

THINK!

Statists are the dumbest MFers of all time.

Indeed. The things are always simple for simpletons.

 

[gipper]

Indeed. The things are always simple for simpletons.

If you bothered to study war history for five minutes, you’d learn that many wars throughout history could have been easily avoided.

Unfortunately you’re just not that smart.

You don’t know, though the evidence is centuries long, the elite love war. Nothing makes them more wealthy or powerful.

 

[ESay]

If you bothered to study war history for five minutes, you’d learn that many wars throughout history could have been easily avoided.

Unfortunately you’re just not that smart.

You don’t know, though the evidence is centuries long, the elite love war. Nothing makes them more wealthy or powerful.

The question is not about how 'easily' they could have been avoided. The thing is 'why' they weren't avoided. There had always been 'a nuance' or 'some nuances' that turned out to be not so easy to resolve.

Weren't you so silly and arrogant, you would have noticed the part where Tom Paine 1949 said about you not being completely wrong. Actually, everyone understands your points, because they are really .. simple.

But what you 'simply' don't grasp is repeating one and the same stuff over and over again with a one-sided view is a sign of narrow-mindedness, not wisdom. Especially comically your frequent exclamations 'Think' look at the background of your hollow posts.

 

[gipper]

The question is not about how 'easily' they could have been avoided. The thing is 'why' they weren't avoided. There had always been 'a nuance' or 'some nuances' that turned out to be not so easy to resolve.

Weren't you so silly and arrogant, you would have noticed the part where Tom Paine 1949 said about you not being completely wrong. Actually, everyone understands your points, because they are really .. simple.

But what you 'simply' don't grasp is repeating one and the same stuff over and over again with a one-sided view is a sign of narrow-mindedness, not wisdom. Especially comically your frequent exclamations 'Think' look at the background of your hollow posts.

You don’t know WHY this war wasn't avoided. Lol. Are you this unaware?

After all these decades of wars, all the death and destruction, numerous coups, massive war budgets, all the war lies…you ask this! Do you not know war is a racket that enriches the oligarchy. War has always been about generating wealth and power for the oligarchs.

Stop being a war pig and get informed.

 

[ESay]

You don’t know WHY this war wasn't avoided. Lol. Are you this unaware?

After all these decades of wars, all the death and destruction, numerous coups, massive war budgets, all the war lies…you ask this! Do you not know war is a racket that enriches the oligarchy. War has always been about generating wealth and power for the oligarchs.

Stop being a war pig and get informed.

Yes, I know. But my reasons won't fit in your narrative. Because your narrative is strictly one-sided.

Yeah, a war pig, a Nazi etc etc. In another thread one called me a Putin propagandist. You simpletons are so alike, despite being on various political spectrums.

 

[gipper]

Yes, I know. But my reasons won't fit in your narrative. Because your narrative is strictly one-sided.

Yeah, a war pig, a Nazi etc etc. In another thread one called me a Putin propagandist. You simpletons are so alike, despite being on various political spectrums.

I’ve never called you a Putin propagandist.

War is always a failure of the state and it’s done on purpose.

 

[ESay]

I’ve never called you a Putin propagandist.

War is always a failure of the state and it’s done on purpose.

Not you, boy. Your twin-brother. Who happens to be on a different political spectrum.

 

[gipper]

Not you, boy. Your twin-brother. Who happens to be on a different political spectrum.

Lol. WTF.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

What gipper does again is look at Western imperialist or neo-colonial wars of aggression and invasion of foreign lands and assume that this war falls simply into that pattern. He does not even try to look at the examples I gave about Eastern European nations that threw off the Russian yoke, preferring Western-style democratic capitalism to Russian-imposed Communism or “gangster capitalism.”

The “national question” in the old Russian Empire has everywhere proven beyond the ability of the “New Czars” and new capitalist oligarchs in the Kremlin to manage.

In its earliest days the Russian revolutionary state, appealing to “socialist internationalism” and fighting to survive actually once supported independence and cultural / political freedoms in Ukraine and other smaller nations. In the East some weaker and more underdeveloped national movements were often simply overwhelmed by more powerful Russian culture, science and administrative ability and initially were integrated into the Soviet Union (or earlier Czarist Empire) without too much violence. There were also once powerful socialist workers movements in Finland, the Baltic states, etc.

But the deeper deterioration of the USSR under Stalin, like its early militarization (“war communism”) in the violent Civil War under Lenin and Trotsky, in addition to Russia’s general backwardness compared to Western Europe … ultimately made a mockery in practice of “Soviet internationalism” in Europe and elsewhere. The “socialist revolution” proved an authoritarian state nightmare, which however at tremendous cost did initially develop Russia itself economically. After Russia’s collectivized industry was abandoned in the reform period under Gorbachev & Yeltsin the economic situation in the Russian Federation deteriorated tremendously, causing many national groups once in the USSR to choose or look to the West, or just to set up their own independent dictatorships.

The Ukrainian situation cannot be understood outside of this whole context. As much as we may dream that conflicting Ukrainian & “Great Russian” nationalisms could have melded into a harmonious binational democratic state in Ukraine, that did not happen and now absolutely cannot happen.

It wasn’t just U.S. “meddling” that caused this either. Russian political culture, so corrupt, arrogant, violent and ridiculously condescending toward Ukrainians — its own “silivicki security state” culture pumped up with oil dollars — simply lacked all appeal to middle class Ukrainians who saw Western Europe as richer and far more appealing. Millions of native Russian speakers in Ukraine felt much the same way — and Putin’s bloody invasion has now convinced the great majority of Ukrainians that there is no longer any possibility of returning to a subordinate status as a quiescent “beloved cousin” or “borderland outpost” of Russia.

 

[gipper]

What gipper does again is look at Western imperialist or neo-colonial wars of aggression and invasion of foreign lands and assume that this war falls simply into that pattern. He does not even try to look at the examples I gave about Eastern European nations that threw off the Russian yoke, preferring Western-style democratic capitalism to Russian-imposed Communism or “gangster capitalism.”

The “national question” in the old Russian Empire has everywhere proven beyond the ability of the “New Czars” and new capitalist oligarchs in the Kremlin to manage.

In its earliest days the Russian revolutionary state, appealing to “socialist internationalism” and fighting to survive actually once supported independence and cultural / political freedoms in Ukraine and other smaller nations. In the East some weaker and more underdeveloped national movements were often simply overwhelmed by more powerful Russian culture, science and administrative ability and initially were integrated into the Soviet Union (or earlier Czarist Empire) without too much violence. There were also once powerful socialist workers movements in Finland, the Baltic states, etc.

But the deeper deterioration of the USSR under Stalin, like its early militarization (“war communism”) in the violent Civil War under Lenin and Trotsky, in addition to Russia’s general backwardness compared to Western Europe … ultimately made a mockery in practice of “Soviet internationalism” in Europe and elsewhere. The “socialist revolution” proved an authoritarian state nightmare, which however at tremendous cost did initially develop Russia itself economically. After Russia’s collectivized industry was abandoned in the reform period under Gorbachev & Yeltsin the economic situation in the Russian Federation deteriorated tremendously, causing many national groups once in the USSR to choose or look to the West, or just to set up their own independent dictatorships.

The Ukrainian situation cannot be understood outside of this whole context. As much as we may dream that conflicting Ukrainian & “Great Russian” nationalisms could have melded into a harmonious binational democratic state in Ukraine, that did not happen and now absolutely cannot happen.

It wasn’t just U.S. “meddling” that caused this either. Russian political culture, so corrupt, arrogant, violent and ridiculously condescending toward Ukrainians — its own “silivicki security state” culture pumped up with oil dollars — simply lacked all appeal to middle class Ukrainians who saw Western Europe as richer and far more appealing. Millions of native Russian speakers in Ukraine felt much the same way — and Putin’s bloody invasion has now convinced the great majority of Ukrainians that there is no longer any possibility of returning to a subordinate status as a quiescent “beloved cousin” or “borderland outpost” of Russia.

You need to learn how to post concise thoughts. These long winded nonsensical posts are wasting my time.

 

[ESay]

You need to learn how to post concise thoughts. These long winded nonsensical posts are wasting my time.

You need to read an re-read them to get this information through your thick forehead. And only after you begin to grasp some of them, any discussion with you will have any sense.

Of course if under a discussion not to consider your endless repeating of the same mantra.

 

[gipper]

You need to read an re-read them to get this information through your thick forehead. And only after you begin to grasp some of them, any discussion with you will have any sense.

Of course if under a discussion not to consider your endless repeating of the same mantra.

Thank for your concise post, even though it’s nonsense as usual.