What role did education have in making this country great?

[starcraftzzz]

Pretty big role I would say. But it was a lot better before the Federal government got involved.

I see so according to you education was a lot better when less then 20% of the population actually got an education. So according to you you think it would be better if we didn't educate our children

 

[starcraftzzz]

The best thing we can do for children's education is to admit that the public education system has failed beyond the point where it can be fixed. Find another way. The worst thing we can do is take the failed policies of K-12 education and extend it into college education. Much of the same failures have already been implemented making it worse won't help.

"Make better" is not a policy. Give examples please.

Unlike everyone else, I'm going to treat you seriously.


I never used the words "make better". Where did you get that from? We can go back to the last point in time when the educational system worked and reboot from that point or abandon the system completely and start something altogether new.

Nothing is going to improve until we recognize a few realities. The schools have failed. They no longer educate, they socialize. Money is not going to help change the philosophy of non-education. That was done in Missouri when Judge Russell Clark ordered unlimited funds for the Kansas City schools.

What education dollars can't seem to buy | Educating Ourselves

From 1985 until Judge Clark recused himself from the case in 1997, Kansas City spent more per-pupil on a cost-of-living-adjusted basis and had the lowest student-teacher ratio of any of the nation’s 280 largest school districts.
The district built 15 new schools and renovated 54 others. One had an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room. Others featured a planetarium, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary and a model United Nations with simultaneous-translation capability.

Despite all this, by the time that lavish spending on school facilities ended in 1999, the percentage of African-American students in the city’s schools had risen from 73 percent in 1985 to 80 percent, student performance was no better and the achievement gap between white and minority students hadn’t narrowed

If public schools are going to be exercises in social programming, admit it and create an alternative so that students who want to progress may do so, voluntarily.

I notice that you failed to suggest a single policy

 

[rdean]

Pretty big role I would say. But it was a lot better before the Federal government got involved.

You mean in the 50's and 60's when Eisenhower and Kennedy pushed education in public schools? Eisenhower started NASA, which Kennedy promoted. Then there was the GI Bill which funded college education. In fact, wasn't it government involvement in schools that made quality education available for white people? Remember, black schools and schools in poor areas were hovels.

Let's try for some coherence, can we?
NASA has nothing to do with education.
The GI Bill, which long predated Eisenhower and Kennedy, was indeed a great thing.
Public education is also essential, but not when it is directed from the federal level.
As for schools in poor areas being in bad shape, I happen to think that education in poor areas was far superior a couple of decades ago than now.

NASA in an inspiration. Not to the right wing, but certainly to the rest of America. They have been awarded thousands of patents from government funded research that has brought in untold billions in revenue. These patents have been sold or licensed to business and are the foundation for much of our industry.

Eisenhower and Kennedy both campaigned on science and education. At one time, Republicans promoted science more than Democrats. Now, they don't. In fact, they have lost all respect for science and want mysticism and the occult taught as an alternative science.

For some reason, Republicans hatred of government has infected the entire country. Countries that are competing with the US and winning understand that only a coalition of Government, Universities and Business will move a country forward. Seriously, what are Republicans plans to move the country forward?

As for schools in poor areas being in bad shape, I happen to think that education in poor areas was far superior a couple of decades ago than now.

Why would you think something so absurd? You sit in front of the Internet. Do some research. Find out the truth.

Education is only part of the answer. We need to invest in education outside of schools as well. The Republican answer of redistributing the wealth to the top one percent though dangerous fiscal policies, let our infrastructure fall apart, invest in wars, slash funding for education, let him die and every man for himself will guarantee we will have no future and no country. You don't even need education to clearly see that as fact. Common sense is enough.

 

[starcraftzzz]

Pretty big role I would say. But it was a lot better before the Federal government got involved.

You mean in the 50's and 60's when Eisenhower and Kennedy pushed education in public schools? Eisenhower started NASA, which Kennedy promoted. Then there was the GI Bill which funded college education. In fact, wasn't it government involvement in schools that made quality education available for white people? Remember, black schools and schools in poor areas were hovels.

Let's try for some coherence, can we?
NASA has nothing to do with education.
The GI Bill, which long predated Eisenhower and Kennedy, was indeed a great thing.
Public education is also essential, but not when it is directed from the federal level.
As for schools in poor areas being in bad shape, I happen to think that education in poor areas was far superior a couple of decades ago than now.

Well like always you are wrong.
Since 1970 test scores and cognitive functions have dramatically increased amongst poor students and poor locations
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...SWhcEI&usg=AFQjCNF6G3OlABX--q5I5LcHE6co9G9rtw

 

[Artevelde]

Pretty big role I would say. But it was a lot better before the Federal government got involved.

I see so according to you education was a lot better when less then 20% of the population actually got an education. So according to you you think it would be better if we didn't educate our children

So you believe the quality of education is better now than before 1979 when the Department of Education was created?

 

[Artevelde]

Why would you think something so absurd? You sit in front of the Internet. Do some research. Find out the truth.

Education is only part of the answer. We need to invest in education outside of schools as well. The Republican answer of redistributing the wealth to the top one percent though dangerous fiscal policies, let our infrastructure fall apart, invest in wars, slash funding for education, let him die and every man for himself will guarantee we will have no future and no country. You don't even need education to clearly see that as fact. Common sense is enough.

Have you ever tried teaching at College level in the US? Unfortunately a lot of students coming out of high school are barely literate nowadays.

 

[Artevelde]

You mean in the 50's and 60's when Eisenhower and Kennedy pushed education in public schools? Eisenhower started NASA, which Kennedy promoted. Then there was the GI Bill which funded college education. In fact, wasn't it government involvement in schools that made quality education available for white people? Remember, black schools and schools in poor areas were hovels.

Let's try for some coherence, can we?
NASA has nothing to do with education.
The GI Bill, which long predated Eisenhower and Kennedy, was indeed a great thing.
Public education is also essential, but not when it is directed from the federal level.
As for schools in poor areas being in bad shape, I happen to think that education in poor areas was far superior a couple of decades ago than now.

Well like always you are wrong.
Since 1970 test scores and cognitive functions have dramatically increased amongst poor students and poor locations
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...SWhcEI&usg=AFQjCNF6G3OlABX--q5I5LcHE6co9G9rtw

You should get out more in the real world.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Pretty big role I would say. But it was a lot better before the Federal government got involved.

/thread

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The Era of Intellectual Pedophilia practiced by Teachers Unions and the state run Education departments is drawing to a close.

 

[Katzndogz]

Pretty big role I would say. But it was a lot better before the Federal government got involved.

I see so according to you education was a lot better when less then 20% of the population actually got an education. So according to you you think it would be better if we didn't educate our children

That's quite an observation! You could well be correct. If only 20% of the children are educatable and will benefit why not put the efforts there and provide for the ones who can't or refused to be educated in some other way?

What we are doing now is we are not educating those who can't or won't be educated AND allowing these kids to interfere with the students who have an interest.

Admit that we can't educate all the children. Not all the children want to be educated.

 

[Katzndogz]

California considered a two tier university system. Students who wanted a degree but didn't want to work particularly hard for it went to a University like UC Riverside, or UC Santa Barbara and pay a lower tuition. Those who wanted to bust ass would go to bust ass schools like Irvine and Berkeley and pay a higher tuition. The complaint was that as soon as it was accepted that the lower tier school was known to be unchallenging, degrees from those schools would be worthless.

There was recently a number of protests at Santa Monica Community College. The students were protesting higher tuition for more intensive core subjects. The student protests were against the intensive classes themselves. It segregated students by intelligence and ability. The students who took the less challenging classes would still graduate, but not graduate classes with the same prestige.

Over and over you can see the split occurring and cutting students out of an education that these students never wanted in the first place. They might have wanted the degree, but not the course work that goes along with it.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Can you consider people who think that tax write offs as "subsidies" truly educated?

Are people who post articles as fact from a satiric newspaper like say, The Onion, truly educated?

 

[starcraftzzz]

Pretty big role I would say. But it was a lot better before the Federal government got involved.

I see so according to you education was a lot better when less then 20% of the population actually got an education. So according to you you think it would be better if we didn't educate our children

So you believe the quality of education is better now than before 1979 when the Department of Education was created?

First off the state governments have been providing k-12 education decades before the DOE.
Second the DOE per-school education programs create $9 in economic benefits for every dollar spent, it also allows tens of millions of people funds to attend college; it also provides poor locations with funds so that they can actually hire teachers. Those things make education better.
Furthermore test scores have increased since 1980.
Redirect Notice

 

[starcraftzzz]

Let's try for some coherence, can we?
NASA has nothing to do with education.
The GI Bill, which long predated Eisenhower and Kennedy, was indeed a great thing.
Public education is also essential, but not when it is directed from the federal level.
As for schools in poor areas being in bad shape, I happen to think that education in poor areas was far superior a couple of decades ago than now.

Well like always you are wrong.
Since 1970 test scores and cognitive functions have dramatically increased amongst poor students and poor locations
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...SWhcEI&usg=AFQjCNF6G3OlABX--q5I5LcHE6co9G9rtw

You should get out more in the real world.

I see so you being 100% wrong means I should get out in the real world more.

 

[Katzndogz]

Test scores have risen amongst the poor because test scores have gone up. The level of education has gone down. They have gone up because of social promotion and grade inflation. The policy of giving everyone an A doesn't mean that everyone deserves an A, just that they got one.

High school graduates today cannot read a newspaper. They cannot do simple arithmetic. They cannot write their own names. They think that the Titanic was just a movie by James Cameron. They cannot locate the United States on a world map. They graduated with test scores that are quite high. They made it. They are educated because someone told them so. They are NOT educated. When they go out into the world, they will have to compete with all of those who have real educations. They have only failure ahead of them.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Test scores have risen amongst the poor because test scores have gone up. The level of education has gone down. They have gone up because of social promotion and grade inflation. The policy of giving everyone an A doesn't mean that everyone deserves an A, just that they got one.

High school graduates today cannot read a newspaper. They cannot do simple arithmetic. They cannot write their own names. They think that the Titanic was just a movie by James Cameron. They cannot locate the United States on a world map. They graduated with test scores that are quite high. They made it. They are educated because someone told them so. They are NOT educated. When they go out into the world, they will have to compete with all of those who have real educations. They have only failure ahead of them.

Obama's base: uneducated and totally dependent on government

 

[Dot Com]

you go to private school 57Frank?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Many of the great thinkers and inventors in our history did not have college educations and some didn't finish high school.

Part of the reason this is true is because prior to WWII, the US school system was largely seen as a joke. It wasn't until the Nazi's drove the worlds greatest Mathematicians and Physicists out of Europe and into the Institute of Advanced Studies at MIT and other colleges all over the USA that the USA emerged as a leader in Mathematics and Physics.

We are still seen as a world leader in the studies of Physics and Mathematics at the graduate and post graduate levels because the USA draws in some of the greatest minds in the world at that level. We're falling behind at the lower levels because we're failing to follow up on the push to improve math and physics education that helped drive the Space Race.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

you go to private school 57Frank?

I went to public school; we had summer reading and kids got left back and had to repeat the grade they failed

I studied Dante, in 7th grade. In public school, in the Bronx.

Different times.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Admit that we can't educate all the children. Not all the children want to be educated.

I agree that not all kids need a college degree to have a successful and happy life. Not all kids need a high school degree.

The biggest problem right now isn't that we have kids that do not "want to be educated." When you're in your teens and early 20's, you don't have a damn clue about what you want or need in life. Honestly, you shouldn't let teenagers make any decisions that could impact the rest of their lives, period. The problem is that you have a lot of parents that do not value education and view public schools as glorified babysitting dumps. They raise their kids to not put a value on education.

Once that kid decides he doesn't need an education, he's screwed for the rest of his life. You can get a decent paying job without an education, but the door is pretty much permanently closed to any occupation that will require an advanced degree. Going back to college late in life is a fairly difficult option, even for the best motivated students. Very very few succeed.