Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Not one where I lost.Obviously you've never been to a track meet or participated in one, have you?
The obvious reference is to God (but not necessarily YOUR God, Glockmail). You say "Jesus" because Jesus is YOUR "Lord" and God; this does not have to be true for everyone, including Benjamin Franklin.The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:
"Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin, 1787, Constitutional Convention
[A deist would not refer to god as “The Lord”, an obvious reference to Jesus.]
First, you have previously established that in your opinion, Noah Webster is not one of our Founding Fathers; I have no idea why you bring him up. Secondly, I have no idea where it's been asserted that Webster was a Deist; and finally, the kind of "Chistianity" that Deists find to be "genuine" and acceptable is that which follows the moral and philisophical precepts of Jesus Christ the human being, not Jesus Christ the deity.The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government." Noah Webster [A deist would never mention Christ.]
First, you deny the patently clear "connection" established by God creating the universe, and the gift of liberty appurtenant to that creation. Secondly, you are just wrong that Deists believe that connection to God is impossible--your assertion is absolutely baseless.The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:
"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." President Thomas Jefferson [A deist would not believe that a “connection” with God is possible.]
First, you have previously established that in your opinion, John Jay is not one of our Founding Fathers; I have no idea why you bring him up. Secondly, I have no idea where it's been asserteded that Jay was a Deist; thirdly, "Providence" does not have to intervene to have an effect on human interests, it merely has to exist; and finally, despite this fabricated notion of yours that Deists believe God cannot influence His Creation, many Deists believe that God actually has, and does, intervene in His Creation--they just don't believe in the hearsay stories told by other about it.The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay [A deist would not believe that Providence intervenes to a Christian people.]
You would think that the James Madison Center would have a record of this important quote. There is no evidnece, of course, that James Madison said this. Dave Barton is a fraud.The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:
"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." President James Madison [A deist would not subscribe to the Ten Commandments, which requires worship to God.]
For Christians, religion requires a personal relationship with God; Deists don't beleive this. Your error is in attempting to impose your Christion religious paradigm on another religion. And the expected result of your egregious errors in logic and fact? FAIL!The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:
"If we make religion our business, God will make it our blessedness." John Adams [Religion requires a personal relationship with God, something a deist believes is impossible.]
As previously explained, Deists have an entirely different view regarding religion (that is not the fucking same as yours, Glockmail), and the important role (to them, not you) of Christ in history. With their (not your) point of view in mind, it is patently obvious that for the Deist, the teachings of Christ are essential to education.The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:
"Let the children...be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools." Benjamin Rush [A deist would not consider Christianity essential to education.]
You're just wrong that Deists would not have reverence for Jesus, they do; but to the extent that their reverence would not be based on Christs divinity--based upon what they would consider to be hearsay--you could be right. But, I'm just about sure you're just as wrong now as you usually are.The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:
"It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God." President John Quincy Adams [A deist would never have reverence for Jesus.]
Again, Glockmail, you attempt to enforce your intolerant Christian paradigm on Deists. This quote only asserts Washington's respect for freedom of religion, and his recognition that Christians might very likely be under his command. Note that , consistent with the beleifs of Deism, Washington didn't make attendance to these services compulsory; he didn't order his troops to worship or pray--he just ordered the Chaplains to not be neglectful of their jobs.The Founders speak for themselves, with my comments in brackets:
“All chaplains are to perform divine service tomorrow, and on every succeeding Sunday…. The commander in chief expects an exact compliance with this order, and that it be observed in future as an invariable rule of practice—and every neglect will be considered not only a breach of orders, but a disregard to decency, virtue and religion.” Head-Quarters, Middle Brook, June 28, 1777. [A deist would never require worship and prayers.]
According to Robert S. Alley, the following quote has been falsely attributed to Madison:
We have staked the entire future of the American civilization not upon the power of government, but upon the capacity of the individual to govern himself, to control himself and sustain himself according to the Ten Commandments of God.
Robert S. Alley: Friend Of Freedom | The Wall of SeparationAmericans United and the cause of church-state separation lost a good friend this week.
On Aug. 14, Robert S. Alley died in Richmond, Va. Alley, a humanities professor emeritus at the University of Richmond, was a lifelong advocate of religious liberty and a staunch supporter of Americans United.
Just all of them.
let me get this straight, is shoggie and loki claiming that NOT ONE of our founding fathers were Christian and ALL of THEM were deists? and somehow... only Deists miraculously ended up founding our country with no Christians in sight?????
Thanks for the bullshit strawman. I know I've made no such assertion, and I'm fairly certain Shogun didn't either.let me get this straight, is shoggie and loki claiming that NOT ONE of our founding fathers were Christian and ALL of THEM were deists? and somehow... only Deists miraculously ended up founding our country with no Christians in sight?????
Deist=/=Agnostic. Deists are certain in their belief in the existence of God; Agnostics remain unsure.is a Deist = to an Agnostic? if not, what is the difference?
No, just all the ones that I've mentioned. And any time that they wrote something that doesn't have the words "Jesus Christ is God" in every sentence, that automatically makes them deist.let me get this straight, is shoggie and loki claiming that NOT ONE of our founding fathers were Christian and ALL of THEM were deists? and somehow... only Deists miraculously ended up founding our country with no Christians in sight?????
This is, of course, not true. No surprise, considering the source.No, just all the ones that I've mentioned. And any time that they wrote something that doesn't have the words "Jesus Christ is God" in every sentence, that automatically makes them deist.
Your ignorance of reality is eclipsed by your denial of it.This is, of course, not true. No surprise, considering the source.
What is true, however, is that the quotes from founding fathers you provide (excepting the fictitious one) do not explicitly assert a belief in the Christian God, but simply belief in God.
And what is also true is that you flatly have no idea what Deists believe, and you insist that your obstinantly obtuse ignorant position on their beliefs somehow demonstrates the Christianity of our founding fathers, rather than your profound stupidity.
As usual from you, nothing.
No, just all the ones that I've mentioned. And any time that they wrote something that doesn't have the words "Jesus Christ is God" in every sentence, that automatically makes them deist.
Your ignorance of reality is eclipsed by your denial of it.