What makes you support one or the other?

[TemplarKormac]

Yes, and those were some pretty damning and shameful periods in our history weren't they?

But you weren't bothered to point out our shortcomings, though. Only Israel is the bad guy here.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I find it odd, that as Saigon points out earlier in this thread, people making judgements against Israel have no stake in its machinations. Coyote, you nor I will understand why Israel does what it does. It renders our opinions of what Israel or what Palestine does as moot. Perhaps if you or I lived there, we would gain a more in depth understanding of the conflict. But as it stands you wish to be the armchair immigration expert, saying Israel is discriminating against Palestinian immigration arbitrarily, when in reality it is protecting their citizenry.

Not in the least. We should not forget it and we should not be repeating it or using it's injustices to support further injustices.

So what is unjust about doing what it takes protect your own people? You think Israel should just adopt an open border policy just to suit your sensitivities? In wartime, a country must use a discriminate immigration policy. If you let a suicide bomber in via an open door policy and he kills Israeli citizens, just who would the people blame for it? Not only the bomber, but the weakness of the government to exercise tougher immigration policy which could prevent such acts of terrorism.

 

[RoshanNair]

I actually don't care enough to support one side over the other, I just find it amusing to piss off the credulous and hypersensitive pro-Palestine crowd and disprove their position.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I find it odd, that as Saigon points out earlier in this thread, people making judgements against Israel have no stake in its machinations. Coyote, you nor I will understand why Israel does what it does. It renders our opinions of what they or what Palestine does as moot. Perhaps if you or I lived there, we would gain a more in depth understanding of the conflict. But as it stands you wish to be the armchair immigration expert, saying Israel is discriminating against Palestinian immigration arbitrarily, when in reality it is protecting their citizenry.

Some people do make judgments despite having no stake, true, but we should not assume that posters on the internet are necessarily who they might claim to be, either.

Some Arab propagandists DO have a stake in it, and when any pattern of rhetoric is so singularly dishonest as to indicate dishonesty is the very objective, then I think it only natural to consider the source, and what that stake might be. It certainly isn't the truth in this particular case, so I would suspect something else.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I actually don't care enough to support one side over the other, I just find it amusing to piss off the credulous and hypersensitive pro-Palestine crowd and disprove their position.

It's like encountering a member of the flat earth society and mentioning the earth is round.

When cult members have their faith refuted, they just dig in their heels, double down and hang on to their fantasies even harder.

This particular fantasy that the Arabs who now call themselves Palestinians are these perfect angels and lived in a utopian world filled with flowers and unicorns until the big, bad Jews came along and ruined it all for the world's most perfect beings -- well, I suspect what ails these cultists is a lot more involved than mere politics.

 

[TemplarKormac]

That's pretty weak evidence upon which to deny an entire people their rights.

Interestingly, you don't acknowledge that the Palestinian government is denying their own citizens rights. Somehow, the contention is that the Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel or that Israel is denying them basic rights, when it has repeatedly shown that it will do what it can to preserve lives. Given that Hamas used human shields during the Gaza campaign earlier this year, Israel was not responsible for any collateral. However, even then, Israel sent humanitarian aid to Gaza in the midst of the ceasefire. Israel has also shown that it can or will rescue Palestinian civilians while placing their lives at risk in the process. That really doesn't sound like someone who would willingly deny a peoples their basic rights.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Yes, and those were some pretty damning and shameful periods in our history weren't they?

But you weren't bothered to point out our shortcomings, though. Only Israel is the bad guy here.

Welcome to the side of light.

Give it a rest. We call that an analogy. The contention here by YOUR SIDE is that Israel is the bad guy.

 

[Beelzebub]

Yes.
I thought the same after posting it. But countering your irony with credulousness has a certain symmetry.

 

[Beelzebub]

I actually don't care enough to support one side over the other, I just find it amusing to piss off the credulous and hypersensitive pro-Palestine crowd and disprove their position.

Surely you know you disprove nothing. Proof requires agreement on fundamental principles, and agreed facts. There are neither of those things here.

All that is really bounced around on the board are prejudices and beliefs in fundamentals of existence.

Zionist supporters tend to think that there is a superiority in a culture which gives it a right to destroy others and kill people to take what they want.
Anti-Zionists tend to believe that each is different but equal, and they should have equal consideration in law and justice, such that neither is killed or robbed, or if they are they have the right (if not the ability) to do the same to their tormentor.

 

[Beelzebub]

That's pretty weak evidence upon which to deny an entire people their rights.

Interestingly, you don't acknowledge that the Palestinian government is denying their own citizens rights. Somehow, the contention is that the Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel or that Israel is denying them basic rights, when it has repeatedly shown that it will do what it can to preserve lives. Given that Hamas used human shields during the Gaza campaign earlier this year, Israel was not responsible for any collateral. However, even then, Israel sent humanitarian aid to Gaza in the midst of the ceasefire. Israel has also shown that it can or will rescue Palestinian civilians while placing their lives at risk in the process. That really doesn't sound like someone who would willingly deny a peoples their basic rights.

Your paragraph there is just a mishmash of Zionist propaganda.

This 3+ years you spent "studying the situation". Was it in a Zionist Madrassa?

 

[RoshanNair]

I actually don't care enough to support one side over the other, I just find it amusing to piss off the credulous and hypersensitive pro-Palestine crowd and disprove their position.

Surely you know you disprove nothing. Proof requires agreement on fundamental principles, and agreed facts. There are neither of those things here.

All that is really bounced around on the board are prejudices and beliefs in fundamentals of existence.

Zionist supporters tend to think that there is a superiority in a culture which gives it a right to destroy others and kill people to take what they want.
Anti-Zionists tend to believe that each is different but equal, and they should have equal consideration in law and justice, such that neither is killed or robbed, or if they are they have the right (if not the ability) to do the same to their tormentor.

I am neither a Zionist, Zionist-supporter, or Anti-Zionist. I don't even care about any peace accord or two-state solution.

Like I said earlier, I just enjoy countering the points you pro-Palestine leftist shills and Muslims conjure (which I do, FYI). Carry on.

 

[Coyote]

Yes, and those were some pretty damning and shameful periods in our history weren't they?

But you weren't bothered to point out our shortcomings, though. Only Israel is the bad guy here.

Exactly why should I go through the historical shortcomings of every country on earth before I can address the topic at hand? Do you do that?

 

[Beelzebub]

I actually don't care enough to support one side over the other, I just find it amusing to piss off the credulous and hypersensitive pro-Palestine crowd and disprove their position.

Surely you know you disprove nothing. Proof requires agreement on fundamental principles, and agreed facts. There are neither of those things here.

All that is really bounced around on the board are prejudices and beliefs in fundamentals of existence.

Zionist supporters tend to think that there is a superiority in a culture which gives it a right to destroy others and kill people to take what they want.
Anti-Zionists tend to believe that each is different but equal, and they should have equal consideration in law and justice, such that neither is killed or robbed, or if they are they have the right (if not the ability) to do the same to their tormentor.

I am neither a Zionist, Zionist-supporter, or Anti-Zionist. I don't even care about any peace accord or two-state solution.

Like I said earlier, I just enjoy countering the points you pro-Palestine leftist shills and Muslims conjure (which I do, FYI). Carry on.

Seems to me that your claim to be neutral is somewhat flawed if you only argue against one side of the issue.

 

[Coyote]

I find it odd, that as Saigon points out earlier in this thread, people making judgements against Israel have no stake in its machinations. Coyote, you nor I will understand why Israel does what it does. It renders our opinions of what Israel or what Palestine does as moot. Perhaps if you or I lived there, we would gain a more in depth understanding of the conflict. But as it stands you wish to be the armchair immigration expert, saying Israel is discriminating against Palestinian immigration arbitrarily, when in reality it is protecting their citizenry.

Uh....Templar....aren't you doing EXACTLY that by participating in this thread and defending Israel position at all costs? Seriously now?

Not in the least. We should not forget it and we should not be repeating it or using it's injustices to support further injustices.

So what is unjust about doing what it takes protect your own people? You think Israel should just adopt an open border policy just to suit your sensitivities? In wartime, a country must use a discriminate immigration policy. If you let a suicide bomber in via an open door policy and he kills Israeli citizens, just who would the people blame for it? Not only the bomber, but the weakness of the government to exercise tougher immigration policy which could prevent such acts of terrorism.

You think it's all about protecting their own people? Some of it, sure. The rest? Not so much.

None of it changes several pertinant facts though:

One - the majority of the Palestinians have NO state and no citizenship. Many exist in multi-generation refugee camps where they have no rights and no protections and are subject to abuse.

Two - they clearly can not just get Israeli citizenship.

 

[Coyote]

Yes, and those were some pretty damning and shameful periods in our history weren't they?

But you weren't bothered to point out our shortcomings, though. Only Israel is the bad guy here.

Welcome to the side of light.

Give it a rest. We call that an analogy. The contention here by YOUR SIDE is that Israel is the bad guy.

Actually there are NO angels in this conflict.

 

[Coyote]

That's pretty weak evidence upon which to deny an entire people their rights.

Interestingly, you don't acknowledge that the Palestinian government is denying their own citizens rights. Somehow, the contention is that the Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel or that Israel is denying them basic rights, when it has repeatedly shown that it will do what it can to preserve lives.

You are dragging in a lot of other issues here in. First off - the Palestinian government and it's own citizen's rights. Which government? Hamas? PA? What particular rights?

Two - my argument is the Palestinians have a right to a state. They are stateless. You made the contention that they could just go and get Israeli citizenship. I pointed out that no, they can not. Isreal has a pretty discrimminatory process of immigration but that is neither here nor there because the plain truth is - Palestinians can't just get Israeli citizenship. I'm not talking about oppression or such - I'm talking about a people that hve no state, no citizenship and NO protections from abuse as a result of this and that is not just Israel, but refugee camps in Syria (the worst), Jordan etc.

Given that Hamas used human shields during the Gaza campaign earlier this year, Israel was not responsible for any collateral. However, even then, Israel sent humanitarian aid to Gaza in the midst of the ceasefire. Israel has also shown that it can or will rescue Palestinian civilians while placing their lives at risk in the process. That really doesn't sound like someone who would willingly deny a peoples their basic rights.

Which has what do do with anything? Are you denying that there are inequities within Israel? Are you saying that I claim Israel doesn't do good thing? And how is any of that truly beneficial to a people with no citizenship and no rights?

 

[Coyote]

I actually don't care enough to support one side over the other, I just find it amusing to piss off the credulous and hypersensitive pro-Palestine crowd and disprove their position.

It's like encountering a member of the flat earth society and mentioning the earth is round.

When cult members have their faith refuted, they just dig in their heels, double down and hang on to their fantasies even harder.

This particular fantasy that the Arabs who now call themselves Palestinians are these perfect angels and lived in a utopian world filled with flowers and unicorns until the big, bad Jews came along and ruined it all for the world's most perfect beings -- well, I suspect what ails these cultists is a lot more involved than mere politics.

Who said the Palestinians were "angels" or that the ME was ever a utopia? What are you smoking?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Exactly why should I go through the historical shortcomings of every country on earth before I can address the topic at hand? Do you do that?

You people think that you should be able to do whatever you want, kill whoever you want, hold any opinion you want, and act in any manner you choose with absolutely no consequences merely because of your own bloated sense of Arab entitlement. Well, the world usually doesn't work that way, as actions DO have consequences. Grow the **** up and accept that you are responsible for your own failings, and not the Jews.

If you people want a state, then show that you deserve the damn thing. Start showing some accountability for your actions for a change, and stop with the incessant excuses. No matter WHAT is said to counter your underhanded crap, you always deflect, obfuscate, lie, deceive, twist, excuse, and otherwise indulge in a pattern of sophistry calculated to let yourself off the hook for your own actions and blame others for them.

This perpetual sense of victimhood is really repulsive.

 

[Coyote]

Exactly why should I go through the historical shortcomings of every country on earth before I can address the topic at hand? Do you do that?

You people

First point of confusion - who are "you people"?

think that you should be able to do whatever you want, kill whoever you want, hold any opinion you want, and act in any manner you choose with absolutely no consequences merely because of your own bloated sense of Arab entitlement. Well, the world usually doesn't work that way, as actions DO have consequences. Grow the **** up and accept that you are responsible for your own failings, and not the Jews.

Alright...seriously...what are you smoking?

If you people want a state, then show that you deserve the damn thing. Start showing some accountability for your actions for a change, and stop with the incessant excuses. No matter WHAT is said to counter your underhanded crap, you always deflect, obfuscate, lie, deceive, twist, excuse, and otherwise indulge in a pattern of sophistry calculated to let yourself off the hook for your own actions and blame others for them.

This perpetual sense of victimhood is really repulsive.

Fortunately, you are not the one who determines what another people's fundamental rights are. That is a good thing.

Give them their state, and then they can prove themselves. Pretty much the same way most states have done after winning their wars or going through the UN. If they fail, then the consequences are on them. But they aren't children and you aren't their masters.

 

[RoshanNair]

I actually don't care enough to support one side over the other, I just find it amusing to piss off the credulous and hypersensitive pro-Palestine crowd and disprove their position.

Surely you know you disprove nothing. Proof requires agreement on fundamental principles, and agreed facts. There are neither of those things here.

All that is really bounced around on the board are prejudices and beliefs in fundamentals of existence.

Zionist supporters tend to think that there is a superiority in a culture which gives it a right to destroy others and kill people to take what they want.
Anti-Zionists tend to believe that each is different but equal, and they should have equal consideration in law and justice, such that neither is killed or robbed, or if they are they have the right (if not the ability) to do the same to their tormentor.

I am neither a Zionist, Zionist-supporter, or Anti-Zionist. I don't even care about any peace accord or two-state solution.

Like I said earlier, I just enjoy countering the points you pro-Palestine leftist shills and Muslims conjure (which I do, FYI). Carry on.

Seems to me that your claim to be neutral is somewhat flawed if you only argue against one side of the issue.

Apathetic doesn't mean "neutral", and vice versa. Like I said, I merely get a kick outta arguing against the Palestinians and their innumerable support base.