What makes you support one or the other?

[Dogmaphobe]

All people people deserve basic rights, whether you like them or not.

Except for Jews, of course, who do not even have the right to live, apparently.

Accordiing to who?

Killing people is not a right.

No it isn't.

Terrorism is not a right.

No it isn't.

The desire for genocide as quite clearly stated in the very charter of those in governance is not a right -- even if you happen to think it is.

That part is debatable, as was argued elsewhere in looking at the PLO, Hamas, and Fatah and their charters. You're trying to rationalize a way to deny a people their basic rights based on a dishonest claim that they desire genocide.

When you scream constantly about the "rights" of people whose foremost desire is the destruction of another people, you are simply part of that process. The day the Arabs who now call themselves "Palestinian" place the actual establishment of a peaceful country of their own above that of their bloodthirsty desire for dead Jews, then they can be said to have inherent rights.

Until then, they do not deserve any.

Everyone deserves the same fundamental rights by nature of their being human until they've abrogated those rights, as individuals. They can't prove they can govern in an acceptable manner until they have a state, free of foreign interference, in which to govern. Genocide, not just poorly supported claims of "wanting genocide" has occurred and is occurring in many parts of the world yet I don't hear a peep from you on how they should forfeit their nations or national aspirations.

It says right in the Hamas' charter that hey desire to "kill Jews until they hide behind rocks and trees"

This has been pointed out to you countless times, yet you continue to lie so as to pursue your radical Arab agenda.


Countries define the collective will of the people. When that will involves extinguishing other people, they forfeit the rights that come with a state. Just because you support it, that does not make it some sort of "right".

 

[Coyote]

All people people deserve basic rights, whether you like them or not.

Except for Jews, of course, who do not even have the right to live, apparently.

Accordiing to who?

Killing people is not a right.

No it isn't.

Terrorism is not a right.

No it isn't.

The desire for genocide as quite clearly stated in the very charter of those in governance is not a right -- even if you happen to think it is.

That part is debatable, as was argued elsewhere in looking at the PLO, Hamas, and Fatah and their charters. You're trying to rationalize a way to deny a people their basic rights based on a dishonest claim that they desire genocide.

When you scream constantly about the "rights" of people whose foremost desire is the destruction of another people, you are simply part of that process. The day the Arabs who now call themselves "Palestinian" place the actual establishment of a peaceful country of their own above that of their bloodthirsty desire for dead Jews, then they can be said to have inherent rights.

Until then, they do not deserve any.

Everyone deserves the same fundamental rights by nature of their being human until they've abrogated those rights, as individuals. They can't prove they can govern in an acceptable manner until they have a state, free of foreign interference, in which to govern. Genocide, not just poorly supported claims of "wanting genocide" has occurred and is occurring in many parts of the world yet I don't hear a peep from you on how they should forfeit their nations or national aspirations.

It says right in the Hamas' charter that hey desire to "kill Jews until they hide behind rocks and trees"[

This has been pointed out to you countless times, yet you continue to lie so as to pursue your radical Arab agenda.

Hamas' is not the only charter nor is it the only representative of the Palestinians (as has been pointed out to you before).
Who Are The Palestinians?

Countries define the collective will of the people. When that will involves extinguishing other people, they forfeit the rights that come with a state. Just because you support it, that does not make it some sort of "right".

You have yet to prove that the collective will of the Palestinians is genocide.

Will you continue with this dishonest charade of what I do and don't support? It's really childish.

 

[TemplarKormac]

As it stands now, many Palestinians lack not only a homeland, but citizenship in any state.

All they need do is apply for citizenship in Israel. Its immigration policy is rather non discriminatory. There are Arabs and Jews living there peacefully.

It's not that simple and it's not non-discriminatory.

Israel s dilemma Who can be an Israeli - Los Angeles Times

Israeli citizenship is designed very differently from the American model. Here, if you are born in the country or become an American citizen, you retain your citizenship unless you seek to renounce it. U.S. citizenship is not conditioned on ethnic or religious origin, and every citizen has the same rights and responsibilities.

In Israel, it's more complicated, with a variety of pathways to different categories of citizenship. All Jews in the world are eligible, under Israel's 1950 Law of Return, to be fast-tracked to Israeli citizenship. And yet even citizenship for Jews is not simple.

Those born to a Jewish father rather than mother or converted to Judaism by non-Orthodox rabbis may qualify for citizenship according to the Law of Return, but do not qualify as Jews in the eyes of Israel's Ministry of Religious Affairs. Accordingly, they are precluded from marrying those registered by the ministry as Jewish because marriage in Israel is controlled by religious authorities. In fact, these Jews are, in some respects, accorded second-class citizenship in terms of their personal status.

Palestinian Arabs and Druze born in Israel are citizens by birth. But residents of East Jerusalem, which Israel annexed after the 1967 Six-Day War, are not. They are conditional residents, not citizens — conditional on living in East Jerusalem continuously or, for those able to travel abroad for the purposes of study or work, maintaining a regular return schedule to ensure their residency is not endangered.

East Jerusalem Palestinians may apply for Israeli citizenship (with no guarantee of success), but the number who have had their permanent residency revoked by the Israeli government since 1967 is as large as the number who have been successful in attaining citizenship. For this reason, Palestinians in East Jerusalem live in constant fear of losing the right to live in their homes.

Similarly grim are the prospects of citizenship for migrant workers in Israel, who come from places like Thailand and the Philippines. Often, their children speak Hebrew as their first language, attend Israeli schools and even do military service. But this does not qualify them for citizenship. Nor do the thousands of African refugees in Israel have a path to citizenship, or even access to social benefits such as healthcare and work permits, under a government that seeks to expel them as "infiltrators."
​

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Citizenship and Entry Law

On 31 July 2003, Israel enacted the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Provision), 5763-2003, a one year amendment to Israel's Citizenship Law denying citizenship and Israeli residence to Palestinians who reside in the West Bank or Gaza Strip and who marry Israelis; the rule has been waived for any Palestinian "who identifies with the State of Israel and its goals, when he or a member of his family has taken concrete action to advance the security, economy or any other matter important to the State". Upon expiration the law was extended for six months in August 2004, and again for four months in February 2005.[180] On 8 May 2005, the Israeli ministerial committee for issues of legislation once again amended the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, to restrict citizenship and residence in Israel only to Palestinian men over the age of 35, and Palestinian women over the age of 25.

Defenders of the Citizenship and Entry Law say it is aimed at preventing terrorist attacks and preserving the "Jewish character" of Israel by restricting Arab immigration.[181] The new bill was formulated in accordance with Shin Bet statistics showing that involvement in terror attacks declines with age. This newest amendment, in practice, removes restrictions from half of the Palestinian population requesting legal status through marriage in Israel. This law was upheld by a High Court decision in 2006.[181]


Although this law theoretically applies to all Israelis, it has disproportionately affected Arab citizens of Israel;[182] Arabs are far more likely to have Palestinian spouses than other Israelis.[183] Thus the law has been widely considered discriminatory[184] and the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has unanimously approved a resolution saying that the Israeli law violated an international human rights treaty against racism.[185]
​

Also: Advertisement

So no, I do not think it is "non-discrimminatory" and while yes, they can "just apply for it" it is unlikely they will get it.

So they remain - citizens of no state, in a no-man's land in regards to rights.

Then why are there 2 million Arabs living in Israel right now?

 

[TemplarKormac]

You are being a troll. Basically you are indirectly citing century old propaganda.

No. You are.
I am describing what Israel has done since 1948.

Of course you are. I've been studying and immersing myself in the machinations of the conflict for well over three years. Arabs started this conflict hands down, and it goes back to 1920:

March 1, 1920: Arabs initiated the conflict with the Battle of Tel Hai killing 8 Jews.

April 4, 1920: Arabs were responsible for inciting the Nebi Musa riots, which killed 4 Jews and wounded 218 more.

August 1, 1921: Arabs incite the Jaffa riots, killing 45 Jews and wounding 140 more.

August 23, 1929: Arabs incite the Palestine riots, killing 133 Jews and wounding 339 more.

August 29, 1929: Arabs participated in the Saffed massacre, killing 20 Jews and wounding 80 more.

Eight years later, on Sunday, November 14, 1937, the Irgun retaliate by killing 10 Arabs in an attack in the outskirts of Jerusalem. Known as "Black Sunday."

October 2, 1938: Arabs participate in the Tiberias pogrom massacre, killing 19 Jews.

Eleven years later, December 26, 1947, 7 Jews are killed while driving a convoy en route to Jerusalem. This is viewed as the official start of the conflict.

January 3, 1948: Arab Militants kill 7 Jews.

So, where does that leave you, my friend?

You left out a whole bunch of stuff: List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The first six attacks were by Arabs, Coyote. Where do you think I got the list from? It shows right off hand the Arabs were the ones who initiated the conflict. They were inciting riots and massacres a decade before the Jews responded.

 

[Coyote]

As it stands now, many Palestinians lack not only a homeland, but citizenship in any state.

All they need do is apply for citizenship in Israel. Its immigration policy is rather non discriminatory. There are Arabs and Jews living there peacefully.

It's not that simple and it's not non-discriminatory.

Israel s dilemma Who can be an Israeli - Los Angeles Times

Israeli citizenship is designed very differently from the American model. Here, if you are born in the country or become an American citizen, you retain your citizenship unless you seek to renounce it. U.S. citizenship is not conditioned on ethnic or religious origin, and every citizen has the same rights and responsibilities.

In Israel, it's more complicated, with a variety of pathways to different categories of citizenship. All Jews in the world are eligible, under Israel's 1950 Law of Return, to be fast-tracked to Israeli citizenship. And yet even citizenship for Jews is not simple.

Those born to a Jewish father rather than mother or converted to Judaism by non-Orthodox rabbis may qualify for citizenship according to the Law of Return, but do not qualify as Jews in the eyes of Israel's Ministry of Religious Affairs. Accordingly, they are precluded from marrying those registered by the ministry as Jewish because marriage in Israel is controlled by religious authorities. In fact, these Jews are, in some respects, accorded second-class citizenship in terms of their personal status.

Palestinian Arabs and Druze born in Israel are citizens by birth. But residents of East Jerusalem, which Israel annexed after the 1967 Six-Day War, are not. They are conditional residents, not citizens — conditional on living in East Jerusalem continuously or, for those able to travel abroad for the purposes of study or work, maintaining a regular return schedule to ensure their residency is not endangered.

East Jerusalem Palestinians may apply for Israeli citizenship (with no guarantee of success), but the number who have had their permanent residency revoked by the Israeli government since 1967 is as large as the number who have been successful in attaining citizenship. For this reason, Palestinians in East Jerusalem live in constant fear of losing the right to live in their homes.

Similarly grim are the prospects of citizenship for migrant workers in Israel, who come from places like Thailand and the Philippines. Often, their children speak Hebrew as their first language, attend Israeli schools and even do military service. But this does not qualify them for citizenship. Nor do the thousands of African refugees in Israel have a path to citizenship, or even access to social benefits such as healthcare and work permits, under a government that seeks to expel them as "infiltrators."
​

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Citizenship and Entry Law

On 31 July 2003, Israel enacted the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Provision), 5763-2003, a one year amendment to Israel's Citizenship Law denying citizenship and Israeli residence to Palestinians who reside in the West Bank or Gaza Strip and who marry Israelis; the rule has been waived for any Palestinian "who identifies with the State of Israel and its goals, when he or a member of his family has taken concrete action to advance the security, economy or any other matter important to the State". Upon expiration the law was extended for six months in August 2004, and again for four months in February 2005.[180] On 8 May 2005, the Israeli ministerial committee for issues of legislation once again amended the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, to restrict citizenship and residence in Israel only to Palestinian men over the age of 35, and Palestinian women over the age of 25.

Defenders of the Citizenship and Entry Law say it is aimed at preventing terrorist attacks and preserving the "Jewish character" of Israel by restricting Arab immigration.[181] The new bill was formulated in accordance with Shin Bet statistics showing that involvement in terror attacks declines with age. This newest amendment, in practice, removes restrictions from half of the Palestinian population requesting legal status through marriage in Israel. This law was upheld by a High Court decision in 2006.[181]


Although this law theoretically applies to all Israelis, it has disproportionately affected Arab citizens of Israel;[182] Arabs are far more likely to have Palestinian spouses than other Israelis.[183] Thus the law has been widely considered discriminatory[184] and the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has unanimously approved a resolution saying that the Israeli law violated an international human rights treaty against racism.[185]
​

Also: Advertisement

So no, I do not think it is "non-discrimminatory" and while yes, they can "just apply for it" it is unlikely they will get it.

So they remain - citizens of no state, in a no-man's land in regards to rights.

Then why are there 2 million Arabs living in Israel right now?

Are they all immigrants? How does having an Arab population show that immigration policies and citizenship laws are not discriminatory or that Palestinians can easily get Israeli citizenship?

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2013 was estimated at 1,658,000, representing 20.7% of the country's population.[2] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins and Druze tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8][9][10][11]

 

[Coyote]

You are being a troll. Basically you are indirectly citing century old propaganda.

No. You are.
I am describing what Israel has done since 1948.

Of course you are. I've been studying and immersing myself in the machinations of the conflict for well over three years. Arabs started this conflict hands down, and it goes back to 1920:

March 1, 1920: Arabs initiated the conflict with the Battle of Tel Hai killing 8 Jews.

April 4, 1920: Arabs were responsible for inciting the Nebi Musa riots, which killed 4 Jews and wounded 218 more.

August 1, 1921: Arabs incite the Jaffa riots, killing 45 Jews and wounding 140 more.

August 23, 1929: Arabs incite the Palestine riots, killing 133 Jews and wounding 339 more.

August 29, 1929: Arabs participated in the Saffed massacre, killing 20 Jews and wounding 80 more.

Eight years later, on Sunday, November 14, 1937, the Irgun retaliate by killing 10 Arabs in an attack in the outskirts of Jerusalem. Known as "Black Sunday."

October 2, 1938: Arabs participate in the Tiberias pogrom massacre, killing 19 Jews.

Eleven years later, December 26, 1947, 7 Jews are killed while driving a convoy en route to Jerusalem. This is viewed as the official start of the conflict.

January 3, 1948: Arab Militants kill 7 Jews.

So, where does that leave you, my friend?

You left out a whole bunch of stuff: List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The first six attacks were by Arabs, Coyote. Where do you think I got the list from? It shows right off hand the Arabs were the ones who initiated the conflict. They were inciting riots and massacres a decade before the Jews responded.

Yes, and they were but then there were a huge number of Jewish terrorist attacks - it no longer matters who was "first" and who wasn't - they both carried out attacks on civilians. Why do you leave that out?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

You have yet to prove that the collective will of the Palestinians is genocide.

Will you continue with this dishonest charade of what I do and don't support? It's really childish.

You calling somebody dishonest is like ISIS saying somebody has no regard for human rights.

I would suggest any of the humans here take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Roudy]

I thought this might an interesting topic...

It appears that there are a great many people involved on this forum who have little or NO connection with Israel or the Palestinians yet have incredibly strong views one side or the other...

So, without any name calling or propaganda, if thats possible...

I have no connection with either Israel or the Palestinians. I have been to Israel and it's neighbouring countries.

I support the plight of the Palestinian people NOT their leaders, Hamas. I have many Jewish friends, Muslim friends and friends of many other religions...

I do not support nor condone any form of violence or terrorism from either side.

My support for the Palestinian people is in the hope that one day, there will be peace in the region and where there is no oppression, no fear...

The occupation of territories by Israel needs to be addressed. The 'blockade' of Gaza should end and a genuine path to a proper solution should be sought, unconditionally.

Do I have the answers? No.

I consider that both side have 'extremists' who block the path to peace, mainly for their own agendas. I do feel that, from the Muslim extremist side, they do not want to have Israel there, from the Israeli side they do not want Muslims there... Both extremists want to see the demise of the other. In what ever form that takes.

Please, if you have nothing interesting to contribute, simply move along rather than posting hate and propaganda, that applies to all!

Palestine isn't sucking up billions of US tax dollars because it can't exist on its own, Israel is and they don't really like us and probably not anyone else either, they just like our money. That kind of thing is an eons old tradition with them.

Wow, three false statements plus one anti Semitic in a total of three sentences. Nice going.

 

[Roudy]

I know I have given you the lesson on dictionaries before Tossy, but it seems you fail that test once more and try to impose your own definitions.
I would love to waste my time by rubbing your nose in your idiocy again, but you are too insensible to notice. Just go find a good dictionary, and read through to delight yourself with uses of the words "invader" and "invasion" which don't fit your entirely limited requirements (and outlook).

As to your "yawn" RADA auditions, I don't know if you realise, but making an effort to insert a description of what you are doing does nothing to indicate boredom. Only desperation to pretend you are suffering from boredom. Why do you work so hard to try to deceive Tossy?
Are you just not willing to deal with Israel as the tyrannical gangster state that it is?

Get a grip mate. Get a grip.

Lets go back a little bit. In Monti's post that I responded to, I explained what an invasion is. You responded to me by accusing me of imposing my own definitions. I responded by posting a link for the definition of invasion, and it matched what I said therefore proving your accusation to be bullshit.
Your response is above.

I notice that when your lies are refuted, you respond by deflecting and posting complete drek. I guess that's one of your techniques that you use when you've just been made a fool of

And you tell me to get a grip ??? Oh Weezle Weezle Weezle

No sonny.
Your attempt to limit the definition failed. The dictionary included an armed invasion, but also many other types of invasion. You were wrong. It seems hard now, but you will feel better if you reread, understand, and admit it.

Go on. Give honesty a try Tossy. It will stand you in good stead for when you grow up.

Oh, so now I limited my definition. Earlier, you said I made up the definition. So admit your accusation was false Weezle (goddamn the name suits you so well!)

Ya right. You just have some type of uncontrollable urge. With all the real suffering, poverty, disease, and death that is going on all over the world, you choose at best a cause whom the so called "victims" happen to be Islamic terrorists that bring most of their "suffering" upon themselves in their quest to commit genocide upon the Jews.

So you didn't read what I want for peace...

No problem.

You want the occupation addressed, and the blockade removed. Whoop de doo.

Your OP had to do withy the why, not the what. When you tell us why you want the blockade lifted and the occupation addressed, which is kind of obvious, you can then do an exercise in honesty and tell us why they're there in the first place.

As I said Roody, you didn't read my earlier post that clearly states what I want for peace...

No problem.

Here's your title:

"What makes you support one or the other?"

Yes, I know, I wrote it

So, what makes you?

 

[Beelzebub]

You are being a troll. Basically you are indirectly citing century old propaganda.

No. You are.
I am describing what Israel has done since 1948.

Of course you are. I've been studying and immersing myself in the machinations of the conflict for well over three years. Arabs started this conflict hands down, and it goes back to 1920:

March 1, 1920: Arabs initiated the conflict with the Battle of Tel Hai killing 8 Jews.

April 4, 1920: Arabs were responsible for inciting the Nebi Musa riots, which killed 4 Jews and wounded 218 more.

August 1, 1921: Arabs incite the Jaffa riots, killing 45 Jews and wounding 140 more.

August 23, 1929: Arabs incite the Palestine riots, killing 133 Jews and wounding 339 more.

August 29, 1929: Arabs participated in the Saffed massacre, killing 20 Jews and wounding 80 more.

Eight years later, on Sunday, November 14, 1937, the Irgun retaliate by killing 10 Arabs in an attack in the outskirts of Jerusalem. Known as "Black Sunday."

October 2, 1938: Arabs participate in the Tiberias pogrom massacre, killing 19 Jews.

Eleven years later, December 26, 1947, 7 Jews are killed while driving a convoy en route to Jerusalem. This is viewed as the official start of the conflict.

January 3, 1948: Arab Militants kill 7 Jews.

So, where does that leave you, my friend?

You left out a whole bunch of stuff: List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The first six attacks were by Arabs, Coyote. Where do you think I got the list from? It shows right off hand the Arabs were the ones who initiated the conflict. They were inciting riots and massacres a decade before the Jews responded.

Have you checked out pre-Mandate Palestine?
Just because those are the first of the mandated territory it doesn't mean it was the start of hostilities.

In any case, I would condemn the Arab killings of Jews at the start of that list. There will have been a better solution to whatever grievance or vendetta.

The real issue is the forced immigration of hundreds of thousands more - clearly unwelcome - European settlers in the 1930's and 1940's. There is no excuse for the forcing themselves in to take the land. Not even those within the Mandate quota. Once out of Occupied Germany going to conquer and occupy someone else's land is unforgivable.

 

[Coyote]

I couldn't find anything for Pre-Mandate Palestine - did you Beez?

 

[Coyote]

You have yet to prove that the collective will of the Palestinians is genocide.

Will you continue with this dishonest charade of what I do and don't support? It's really childish.

You calling somebody dishonest is like ISIS saying somebody has no regard for human rights.

I would suggest any of the humans here take it with a grain of salt.

You have yet to prove that the collective will of the Palestinians is genocide. Can't you come up with something more than Hamas' charter? That's pretty weak evidence upon which to deny an entire people their rights.

I am guessing you are choosing to continue this dishonest claim of what I do or don't support. So be it. Let's move on then.

 

[Beelzebub]

I couldn't find anything for Pre-Mandate Palestine - did you Beez?

Nothing of the detail of your link.

But this has a lot of relevant context:
The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

I suspect violence during WWI would not have been well documented, what with there being so much of it, and I suspect Ottoman records would not be as detailed as British ones.

It may also be reasonable to think that the Ottomans reserved violence to themselves, so tensions would have been repressed only to break out when the totalitarians had left. Not unlike in our more recent Arab springs, or in Yugoslavia.

But there will be other sources. Anyone finding them, please post a link.

Edit:
From the link above:
“The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, ‘there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.’ He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

 

[TemplarKormac]

Are they all immigrants? How does having an Arab population show that immigration policies and citizenship laws are not discriminatory or that Palestinians can easily get Israeli citizenship?

"Are they all immigrants?"

As of the 2014 estimate, there are 1.68 migrants per 1,000 people in Israel. Places them in the top 23% (53 of 222) of countries in the world as it pertains to ease of immigration.

The current population of Israel is 8,059,000

8,059,000/1,000 = 8059

8059 x 1.68 = 13,539

Meaning that roughly 13,539 immigrants make it to Israel each year.

List of countries by net migration rate - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Between 1990 and 2009, 1.25 million people immigrated to Israel. A majority of them from the Former Soviet Union.

https://unstats.un.org/unsd/wsd/docs/Israel_wsd_brochure.pdf

Between 1993 and the 2003 law, nearly 100,000 - 140,000 Palestinians became legal citizens and have settled in Israel.

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=14464&CategoryId=4


As for the discriminatory nature of the 2003 law, I would point out that in 1882, President Chester A. Arthur signed a law which banned all immigration by Chinese laborers, though it was repealed. In 1924, President Calvin Coolidge signed the Johnson Reed Act, which established an annual 2% immigration quota restricting immigration by Southern Europeans, Eastern Europeans, and Jews. It then placed severe restrictions on immigration from select countries in Africa and from India. In 1952, Congress revised the 1924 act, which President Truman vetoed, however Congress overrode his veto and the law was enacted. It wasn't until 1965 that the law was repealed permanently.

It's funny how we forget our own history. You must also understand that the 2000 freeze of Family Reunification and 2003 law was the response of the Israeli government to repeated attacks by Palestine. I don't blame them. Cry discrimination all you want, but Israel was trying to protect itself by stopping immigration from enemy countries, including Palestine. Allowing free immigration by Palestinians could risk enemy combatants slipping through and posing a threat to Israeli citizens.

 

[montelatici]

"As of the 2014 estimate, there are 1.68 migrants per 1,000 people in Israel. Places them in the top 23% (53 of 222) of countries in the world as it pertains to ease of immigration."

For those of a particular religion/race. A racist policy.

Jews from Europe went to Palestine, expelled most of the Christians and Muslims, created their own state, and now want to keep non-Jews out. Seems fair. LOL

 

[Roudy]

What has Israel stolen then, that was not theirs to begin with.

The West Bank, basically.

Historically, Jews have never really lived in any of the land except Jericho. There is really no question amongst Israelis that towns like Nablus and Ramallah are Palestinian towns, anymore so than there is any question amongst Palestinians that Tel Aviv or Qiryat Shemonah are Jewish areas.

I don't see this issue as being particularly complex. It may be that a just settlement would see Israel now keep 10% - 15% of the West Bank and trade land for it, and in some cases that might be best for everyone, but I don't think anyone who really understands a thing about this conflict honestly believes a town like Nablus belongs in Israel.

There isn't suppose to be an Israel until Jesus comes back to personally found it, that which claims to be Israel is plain and simply a biblical abomination.

Nope. You got your order of the prophecy wrong, wrong Nazi boy. Jews gather in the promised land, a world wide battle ensues with an evil entity in which all nations fall (including USA), and the only ones left standing in this "Armageddon" are the Jews.

 

[Roudy]

As any good Zionist will try to make people conflate Judaism and Zionism, I think you are either a little behind in education, a little careless in your thinking, or trying to support the Zionism by being a poor advocate against Zionism.

Judaism has not been a recipient of US handouts for eons, as even the USA is a recent invention. And apart from that Jews have generally been more taxed through Christendom than subsidised.

Where are you getting your history from? Walt Disney?

The truth of the matter is that it is the very low IQ antisemites who think they are being oh, so clever when they substitute the term "Zionist" for "Jew" as they rail away with their hatred.

Quality humans see through this stupid ruse that only works on morons.

There is no such thing as an anti Zionist who isn't an anti Semite.

 

[Roudy]

"As of the 2014 estimate, there are 1.68 migrants per 1,000 people in Israel. Places them in the top 23% (53 of 222) of countries in the world as it pertains to ease of immigration."

For those of a particular religion/race. A racist policy.

Jews from Europe went to Palestine, expelled most of the Christians and Muslims, created their own state, and now want to keep non-Jews out. Seems fair. LOL

Still lying and crying over spilt milk? LOL

 

[TemplarKormac]

I couldn't find anything for Pre-Mandate Palestine - did you Beez?

Nothing of the detail of your link.

But this has a lot of relevant context:
The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

I suspect violence during WWI would not have been well documented, what with there being so much of it, and I suspect Ottoman records would not be as detailed as British ones.

It may also be reasonable to think that the Ottomans reserved violence to themselves, so tensions would have been repressed only to break out when the totalitarians had left. Not unlike in our more recent Arab springs, or in Yugoslavia.

But there will be other sources. Anyone finding them, please post a link.

Edit:
From the link above:
“The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, ‘there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.’ He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

In the 1840's the Jews began purchasing land in Pre-Mandate Palestine. Between 1880 and 1914, 60,000 Jews settled in Palestine. In 1937, the Peel Commission found that due to Jewish land purchases the Arabs were becoming concerned with dispossession, but their fears were of their own doing. During the Jewish immigration boom in the late 19th and early 20th century, a majority of Arab landlords were selling swaths of land to the Jews. Realizing their mistakes, the Arabs incited the the Arab revolt of 1936-39 as a result of such land purchases.

A Palestinian newspaper, Al Ikdam on January 19, 1931 acknowledged these land sales:

"We are selling our lands to Jews without any remorse. Land brokers are busy day and night with their odious trade without feeling any shame. In the meantime the nation is busy sending protests. Where are we going to? One looks at the quantity of Arab lands transferred daily to Jewish hands, [one] realizes that we are bound to go away from this country. But where? Shall we move to Egypt, Hijaz, or Syria? How could we live there, since we would have sold the lands of our fathers and ancestors to our enemies? Nobody could show us mercy or pity, were we to go away from our country, because we would have lost her with our own hands.'

So, the Jews had no intention of driving Arabs out of their lands, Arabs in this case were their own worst enemies.

 

[Coyote]

Are they all immigrants? How does having an Arab population show that immigration policies and citizenship laws are not discriminatory or that Palestinians can easily get Israeli citizenship?

"Are they all immigrants?"

As of the 2014 estimate, there are 1.68 migrants per 1,000 people in Israel. Places them in the top 23% (53 of 222) of countries in the world as it pertains to ease of immigration.

The current population of Israel is 8,059,000

8,059,000/1,000 = 8059

8059 x 1.68 = 13,539

Meaning that roughly 13,539 immigrants make it to Israel each year.

List of countries by net migration rate - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Between 1990 and 2009, 1.25 million people immigrated to Israel. A majority of them from the Former Soviet Union.

https://unstats.un.org/unsd/wsd/docs/Israel_wsd_brochure.pdf

Between 1993 and the 2003 law, nearly 100,000 - 140,000 Palestinians became legal citizens and have settled in Israel.

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=14464&CategoryId=4

When I said "are they all immigrants" - I was referring to the Arab citizens - were they all immigrants or residents who accepted Israeli citizenship early on. You gave me a whole bunch of immigration stats that have nothing to do with my question but talk about overall immigration or talk about the general population demographics of Israel.

One of your sources also shows how discriminatory the policies are:

Brief Timeline:

1967 – Family unification of a limited number of Palestinian refugees was allowed. 45,000-50,000 persons were approved for family unification between 1967 and 1972 under this policy. The original requests amounted to 140,000 and approval was denied to males between the ages of 16-60.

1973 – Most applications for family unification were denied. The policy was unclear and was done on “strict confidential criteria” . Over 150,000 families put in requests for unification from 1973 – 1982, but only 1,000 requests were approved annually.

1983 – A new policy was set in place to make it impossible to approve requests for family unification. Part of the policy was to deny applicants for family unification a permit to enter to visit his or her family if an application is in the process. The procedure could take a number of years and it was expected that a parent and spouse would want to see their family during that period. As a result, many families either did not apply for family unification in order to secure the right to get a permit or moved to the Occupied Palestinian Territories to be with their spouse, thus risking their own residency rights in Jerusalem. Alternatively, some chose to stay in the city on an expired permit, risking deportation and denial of reentry.

From 1983 to August 1992 only a few hundred requests were approved annually, based largely on administrative and humanitarian needs. This was slightly amended in 1985 to include a provision that stipulates that an applicant must remain away until his or her request is approved. Before 1987, children were automatically registered in their father’s Jerusalem ID, regardless of the status of their mother. After 1987 a new military order forbid registration of a child whose mother is not already a resident.

1993 – An annual quota of 2,000 requests for family unification was implemented starting August of that year; however, the exact number of approved applications is unclear. This new policy restricted requests to those made for a spouse and any child under the age of 16. The previous military order concerning a non-resident mother was annulled, but it was still ignored by the Civil Administration in reviewing cases for family unification.

1995 – After the establishment of the Palestinian Authority, the aforementioned quota system remained in effect, but also included requests coming from throughout the Occupied Territories, including areas under the PA’s control. ​

1998 & 1999 – The quota system rose to 3,000 per year and according to some figures 3,000 applications in both years were approved.

2000 – The quota system was raised to 4,000 family reunification requests. Despite the rise in the quota, only 3,600 requests were approved that year.

Since 2000, all family reunification requests have been frozen.

2003 - The Knesset enacts the Nationality and Entry into Israel (Temporary Order) Law, 5762-2003 in July. This law effectively annulled all the procedures for family unification. One of the main reasons for this law was on security grounds, especially since “The granting of a permit to stay for the purpose of settling in Israel to a resident of a state or political entity that is in armed conflict with the State of Israel entails a security risk, in that the allegiance and commitment of the said person is liable to be to the state or political entity in conflict with Israel. And because it is possible to pressure a person whose family members continue to live in such a place, to get that person to assist terror organizations, if he doesn’t want any harm to come to his family…” ​

As for the discriminatory nature of the 2003 law, I would point out that in 1882, President Chester A. Arthur signed a law which banned all immigration by Chinese laborers, though it was repealed. In 1924, President Calvin Coolidge signed the Johnson Reed Act, which established an annual 2% immigration quota restricting immigration by Southern Europeans, Eastern Europeans, and Jews. It then placed severe restrictions on immigration from select countries in Africa and from India. In 1952, Congress revised the 1924 act, which President Truman vetoed, however Congress overrode his veto and the law was enacted. It wasn't until 1965 that the law was repealed permanently.

Yes, and those were some pretty damning and shameful periods in our history weren't they?

It's funny how we forget our own history. You must also understand that the 2000 freeze of Family Reunification and 2003 law was the response of the Israeli government to repeated attacks by Palestine. I don't blame them. Cry discrimination all you want, but Israel was trying to protect itself by stopping immigration from enemy countries, including Palestine. Allowing free immigration by Palestinians could risk enemy combatants slipping through and posing a threat to Israeli citizens.

Forget our own history? Not in the least. We should not forget it and we should not be repeating it or using it's injustices to support further injustices.

As for the freeze of the Family Reunification law - what about the period prior, with so few applications approved? And, of those few approved - as long as TEN years to process? With the restrictions in place preventing family members from meeting prior to approval?