What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

[IndependntLogic]

Look dickweed, I don't have to do squat. And yes, Sweden does operate an efficient health care system. So does Indoensia. Hell The Ukraine has a better system than we do. But backwoods gomers who have their every opinion fed to them by the RW media outlets and have never lived outside Pukewater, Iowa don't know a thing so they just think what they're told to think and parrot what they're told to say.
But hey, it's cool. Without ignorant ass wipes like you, who would vote Republican?

Yep, people are packing up and flying to the Ukrain every day to get care.

You leftists sure are smart, and honest.....

The reason I mentioned The Ukraine is simply because I used to live there. And Austria and Canada and Mexico and Peru. So tell me Gomer, where exactly have you lived that gives you such expertise on a public option? Yeah, thought so. Internet "experts" are so amusing.
And again, I'm not a leftist. You're just a mindless drone who can't think for yourself. Care to see who can prove the other wrong in this regard?
Time for you to Cut & Run Gomer.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Look dickweed, I don't have to do squat. And yes, Sweden does operate an efficient health care system. So does Indoensia. Hell The Ukraine has a better system than we do. But backwoods gomers who have their every opinion fed to them by the RW media outlets and have never lived outside Pukewater, Iowa don't know a thing so they just think what they're told to think and parrot what they're told to say.
But hey, it's cool. Without ignorant ass wipes like you, who would vote Republican?

Yep, people are packing up and flying to the Ukrain every day to get care.

You leftists sure are smart, and honest.....

Sweden and Indonesia too.

All you have to look at are the growing number of Canadians and Brits who are 'visiting' the USA in order to access our healthcare system when the waiting lists in their own countries become intolerably long. Even in Germany that has one of the better government healthcare systems, the taxes go ever higher and folks aren't flying there to access their system either.

The idea of healthcare for everybody is a wonderful, practical, benevolent concept. But it cannot hold a candle to the innovations, broad advances, new technoglogies, and brilliance that emerges in a free market system.

How much better and more practical would it have been for the federal government to focus on helping the free market system work more efficiently, effectively, and economically instead of attempting to dismantle it in favor of bureaucrats and politicians running it.

But try to get a liberal to discuss that! It is frustrating.

Ah. Someone who can discuss concepts intelligently.
Okay. There's no getting around the fact that governments take money from people who live in their country. So it becomes a matter of what you get in return. What do we get?
Our money is given to banks, foreign countries, Big Oil and MNE's that ship our jobs and tax revenues offshore. Why? Because politicians tell us that giving money away to banksters, crooked politicians in other countries and Fortune 500's is more important than making sure our own citizens don't die in the streets because - screw the wait - they can't get health care AT ALL.
We spend more money on defense than every other country in the world COMBINED. Are we really THAT evil? I don't think so. Hell, we used to be the indisputable GOOD GUYS. But we got so arrogant and empirical, that this has become disputable. So we make the Military Industrial Complex rich beyind rich. Why? Because feeding that machine is more important than making sure our children get the medical care they need.
It's simply a matter of priorities. What do we prioritize over the health and welfare of our citizens? Bank profits, The Profits of Companies that don't pay taxes and ship jobs overseas, The profits of the Military Industrial Complex and of course, crooked politicians in dozens of foreign countries.
So there is no public option. Let's say ObamaCare (which sucks) is eliminated too. Do we pay for health care? Absolutely. We pay much more than we would if we had a public option.
Think of all the entreprenaurs who will never start a business because they are enslaved to their employers through our current system.
2/3 of all bankruptcies are due in large part, to medical bills. Guess who is paying for all those bankruptcies RIGHT NOW?
Do you think if there was a public option, there wouldn't be private insurance? Wrong. Lots of countries have a very basic level available to all citizens. it's paid for much like Social Security and it's not great. Not at all. If you want and can afford better, you pay for better. Or much better. And so on.
Or there's the system like Indonesia's. You pay in based on your income. If you want one check up a year, it's free. Two involves a co-pay. Third is paid for by you 100% - eliminates abuse.
Or like Mexico. There's basic insurance which is pretty bad and like the DMV. Those with more money get better care. Just like here. I actually got GREAT care in Mexico! The only difference is you don't have millions of people walking around with no access to health care at all.
This "all or nothing" mentality is a fabrication of RW media aimed at those who have never traveled or experienced anything beyond what they grew up with. There are a lot of options but the Right has closed the minds of their followers to even considering anything other than what worked in the 1950's. This isn't then.

 

[bravoactual]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

Except of course when "The Government" decides that forcing a Woman to undergo a medically un-necessary, and totally invasive vaginal probe and then your all about "The Right of The Government" to decided what medical procedure is done.

IF you do not want want "The Government" to decide medical care, then you cannot support any law or bill that requires a woman to undergo such a procedure.

IF you do not want "Big Government" telling YOU what to do, then you cannot support a ban on Gay/Lesbian Marriage, such a ban is the exact opposite of what you believe.

It is not that you do like "Big Government", its that you want that "Big Government" as long as that "Big Government" serves your political purposes.

 

[Full-Auto]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

Except of course when "The Government" decides that forcing a Woman to undergo a medically un-necessary, and totally invasive vaginal probe and then your all about "The Right of The Government" to decided what medical procedure is done.

IF you do not want want "The Government" to decide medical care, then you cannot support any law or bill that requires a woman to undergo such a procedure.

IF you do not want "Big Government" telling YOU what to do, then you cannot support a ban on Gay/Lesbian Marriage, such a ban is the exact opposite of what you believe.

It is not that you do like "Big Government", its that you want that "Big Government" as long as that "Big Government" serves your political purposes.

Some very good points.

Now lets add we already have big government with a system in place that gives tax dollars to many who refuse to take care of themselves. It is then another big government solution becomes necessary.

There is two sides regardless of your willingness to admit such.

 

[koshergrl]

Yep, people are packing up and flying to the Ukrain every day to get care.

You leftists sure are smart, and honest.....

Sweden and Indonesia too.

All you have to look at are the growing number of Canadians and Brits who are 'visiting' the USA in order to access our healthcare system when the waiting lists in their own countries become intolerably long. Even in Germany that has one of the better government healthcare systems, the taxes go ever higher and folks aren't flying there to access their system either.

The idea of healthcare for everybody is a wonderful, practical, benevolent concept. But it cannot hold a candle to the innovations, broad advances, new technoglogies, and brilliance that emerges in a free market system.

How much better and more practical would it have been for the federal government to focus on helping the free market system work more efficiently, effectively, and economically instead of attempting to dismantle it in favor of bureaucrats and politicians running it.

But try to get a liberal to discuss that! It is frustrating.

Ah. Someone who can discuss concepts intelligently.
Okay. There's no getting around the fact that governments take money from people who live in their country. So it becomes a matter of what you get in return. What do we get?
Our money is given to banks, foreign countries, Big Oil and MNE's that ship our jobs and tax revenues offshore. Why? Because politicians tell us that giving money away to banksters, crooked politicians in other countries and Fortune 500's is more important than making sure our own citizens don't die in the streets because - screw the wait - they can't get health care AT ALL.
We spend more money on defense than every other country in the world COMBINED. Are we really THAT evil? I don't think so. Hell, we used to be the indisputable GOOD GUYS. But we got so arrogant and empirical, that this has become disputable. So we make the Military Industrial Complex rich beyind rich. Why? Because feeding that machine is more important than making sure our children get the medical care they need.
It's simply a matter of priorities. What do we prioritize over the health and welfare of our citizens? Bank profits, The Profits of Companies that don't pay taxes and ship jobs overseas, The profits of the Military Industrial Complex and of course, crooked politicians in dozens of foreign countries.
So there is no public option. Let's say ObamaCare (which sucks) is eliminated too. Do we pay for health care? Absolutely. We pay much more than we would if we had a public option.
Think of all the entreprenaurs who will never start a business because they are enslaved to their employers through our current system.
2/3 of all bankruptcies are due in large part, to medical bills. Guess who is paying for all those bankruptcies RIGHT NOW?
Do you think if there was a public option, there wouldn't be private insurance? Wrong. Lots of countries have a very basic level available to all citizens. it's paid for much like Social Security and it's not great. Not at all. If you want and can afford better, you pay for better. Or much better. And so on.
Or there's the system like Indonesia's. You pay in based on your income. If you want one check up a year, it's free. Two involves a co-pay. Third is paid for by you 100% - eliminates abuse.
Or like Mexico. There's basic insurance which is pretty bad and like the DMV. Those with more money get better care. Just like here. I actually got GREAT care in Mexico! The only difference is you don't have millions of people walking around with no access to health care at all.
This "all or nothing" mentality is a fabrication of RW media aimed at those who have never traveled or experienced anything beyond what they grew up with. There are a lot of options but the Right has closed the minds of their followers to even considering anything other than what worked in the 1950's. This isn't then.

Oh look, more convoluted bs to justify wholesale murder, marginalize the concept of freedom and liberty, and to put the brakes on any interference.

Good nazi baby killer. You must be proud!

 

[IndependntLogic]

Sweden and Indonesia too.

All you have to look at are the growing number of Canadians and Brits who are 'visiting' the USA in order to access our healthcare system when the waiting lists in their own countries become intolerably long. Even in Germany that has one of the better government healthcare systems, the taxes go ever higher and folks aren't flying there to access their system either.

The idea of healthcare for everybody is a wonderful, practical, benevolent concept. But it cannot hold a candle to the innovations, broad advances, new technoglogies, and brilliance that emerges in a free market system.

How much better and more practical would it have been for the federal government to focus on helping the free market system work more efficiently, effectively, and economically instead of attempting to dismantle it in favor of bureaucrats and politicians running it.

But try to get a liberal to discuss that! It is frustrating.

Ah. Someone who can discuss concepts intelligently.
Okay. There's no getting around the fact that governments take money from people who live in their country. So it becomes a matter of what you get in return. What do we get?
Our money is given to banks, foreign countries, Big Oil and MNE's that ship our jobs and tax revenues offshore. Why? Because politicians tell us that giving money away to banksters, crooked politicians in other countries and Fortune 500's is more important than making sure our own citizens don't die in the streets because - screw the wait - they can't get health care AT ALL.
We spend more money on defense than every other country in the world COMBINED. Are we really THAT evil? I don't think so. Hell, we used to be the indisputable GOOD GUYS. But we got so arrogant and empirical, that this has become disputable. So we make the Military Industrial Complex rich beyind rich. Why? Because feeding that machine is more important than making sure our children get the medical care they need.
It's simply a matter of priorities. What do we prioritize over the health and welfare of our citizens? Bank profits, The Profits of Companies that don't pay taxes and ship jobs overseas, The profits of the Military Industrial Complex and of course, crooked politicians in dozens of foreign countries.
So there is no public option. Let's say ObamaCare (which sucks) is eliminated too. Do we pay for health care? Absolutely. We pay much more than we would if we had a public option.
Think of all the entreprenaurs who will never start a business because they are enslaved to their employers through our current system.
2/3 of all bankruptcies are due in large part, to medical bills. Guess who is paying for all those bankruptcies RIGHT NOW?
Do you think if there was a public option, there wouldn't be private insurance? Wrong. Lots of countries have a very basic level available to all citizens. it's paid for much like Social Security and it's not great. Not at all. If you want and can afford better, you pay for better. Or much better. And so on.
Or there's the system like Indonesia's. You pay in based on your income. If you want one check up a year, it's free. Two involves a co-pay. Third is paid for by you 100% - eliminates abuse.
Or like Mexico. There's basic insurance which is pretty bad and like the DMV. Those with more money get better care. Just like here. I actually got GREAT care in Mexico! The only difference is you don't have millions of people walking around with no access to health care at all.
This "all or nothing" mentality is a fabrication of RW media aimed at those who have never traveled or experienced anything beyond what they grew up with. There are a lot of options but the Right has closed the minds of their followers to even considering anything other than what worked in the 1950's. This isn't then.

Oh look, more convoluted bs to justify wholesale murder, marginalize the concept of freedom and liberty, and to put the brakes on any interference.

Good nazi baby killer. You must be proud!

Good nazi baby killer?
Justify wholesale murder?
Marginalize freedom and liberty?
WTF? Are you off your meds again or something?
Okay the stupid whackjob bumper sticker slogans are very cute.
So want to try to actually address anything discussed?

Oh wait! What's So Frustrating About Debating Anything With Conservatives is:
They don't address issues or topics.
They just spew ignorant BS they parrot from the talking points.
Then they sling a few petty insults.

Thanks for proving the OP goes both ways! See. You're good for SOMETHING! WooHoo!

 

[Oddball]

This "all or nothing" mentality is a fabrication of RW media aimed at those who have never traveled or experienced anything beyond what they grew up with. There are a lot of options but the Right has closed the minds of their followers to even considering anything other than what worked in the 1950's. This isn't then.

Nice strawman, Slapnutz....Pretty much negates the entire prattling text wall which preceded it.

 

[Foxfyre]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

Except of course when "The Government" decides that forcing a Woman to undergo a medically un-necessary, and totally invasive vaginal probe and then your all about "The Right of The Government" to decided what medical procedure is done.

IF you do not want want "The Government" to decide medical care, then you cannot support any law or bill that requires a woman to undergo such a procedure.

IF you do not want "Big Government" telling YOU what to do, then you cannot support a ban on Gay/Lesbian Marriage, such a ban is the exact opposite of what you believe.

It is not that you do like "Big Government", its that you want that "Big Government" as long as that "Big Government" serves your political purposes.

That is UNLESS you believe that the unborn baby is a human life just as the baby just emerged from the womb is a human life. UNLESS you believe that there is no stage of human development any less essential to a human life than any other stage of human development. And rather than deny a woman the right to end the human life that she carries, at least insist that she be fully educated and advised that it is a human life that she chooses to end and not some meaningless inconsequential bunch of cells.

I, a staunch conservative, do not want the federal government involved in the issue of abortion at all. Left to govern themselves, I suspect that most states and/or local communities would not pass laws requiring ultrasound procedures before abortions. But a free people is free to act on its convictions and those states or communities who put value on human life at ALL stages should be able to act on their convictions in that matter.

In the end it all comes down to the definition of human life. And because of all the variables that can honestly be included in that, it is always going to come down to the human conscience. Life and liberty, which all conservatives put as most important in the social contract, includes the ability to exercise one's consicence so long as the rights of another are not violated.

It would be less frustrating arguing with liberals if the focus could be there instead of the constant name calling, accusations, hateful inerences, and blatant stupidity etc. etc. etc.

 

[IndependntLogic]

This "all or nothing" mentality is a fabrication of RW media aimed at those who have never traveled or experienced anything beyond what they grew up with. There are a lot of options but the Right has closed the minds of their followers to even considering anything other than what worked in the 1950's. This isn't then.

Nice strawman, Slapnutz....Pretty much negates the entire prattling text wall which preceded it.

Hmmm. Doesn't actually counter or even address any points made. Really fugging stupid. Must be Oddball!

How are ya baby! I forgot about your weak ass! So. Still got zero to offer, zero to counter, zero intellect! The Party of Zero would be proud of you junior!

So where have you lived and had govt. health care? Oh that's right. it's not like you know anything that hasn't been spoon-fed to you. Have a nice day Junior!

 

[IndependntLogic]

This "all or nothing" mentality is a fabrication of RW media aimed at those who have never traveled or experienced anything beyond what they grew up with. There are a lot of options but the Right has closed the minds of their followers to even considering anything other than what worked in the 1950's. This isn't then.

Nice strawman, Slapnutz....Pretty much negates the entire prattling text wall which preceded it.

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

Except of course when "The Government" decides that forcing a Woman to undergo a medically un-necessary, and totally invasive vaginal probe and then your all about "The Right of The Government" to decided what medical procedure is done.

IF you do not want want "The Government" to decide medical care, then you cannot support any law or bill that requires a woman to undergo such a procedure.

IF you do not want "Big Government" telling YOU what to do, then you cannot support a ban on Gay/Lesbian Marriage, such a ban is the exact opposite of what you believe.

It is not that you do like "Big Government", its that you want that "Big Government" as long as that "Big Government" serves your political purposes.

That is UNLESS you believe that the unborn baby is a human life just as the baby just emerged from the womb is a human life. UNLESS you believe that there is no stage of human development any less essential to a human life than any other stage of human development. And rather than deny a woman the right to end the human life that she carries, at least insist that she be fully educated and advised that it is a human life that she chooses to end and not some meaningless inconsequential bunch of cells.

I, a staunch conservative, do not want the federal government involved in the issue of abortion at all. Left to govern themselves, I suspect that most states and/or local communities would not pass laws requiring ultrasound procedures before abortions. But a free people is free to act on its convictions and those states or communities who put value on human life at ALL stages should be able to act on their convictions in that matter.

In the end it all comes down to the definition of human life. And because of all the variables that can honestly be included in that, it is always going to come down to the human conscience. Life and liberty, which all conservatives put as most important in the social contract, includes the ability to exercise one's consicence so long as the rights of another are not violated.

It would be less frustrating arguing with liberals if the focus could be there instead of the constant name calling, accusations, hateful inerences, and blatant stupidity etc. etc. etc.

Solid post and I agree with it completely. It comes down to how life is defined. Currently, the legal definition is different than your definition. I disagree with many legal definitions though, so I can empathize with your view.

The last sentence in bold? Hmmm. Why don't you scroll up to Oddball and KosherGirl's post directly above. You will see proof it applies to Conservs as well.

 

[Foxfyre]

This "all or nothing" mentality is a fabrication of RW media aimed at those who have never traveled or experienced anything beyond what they grew up with. There are a lot of options but the Right has closed the minds of their followers to even considering anything other than what worked in the 1950's. This isn't then.

Nice strawman, Slapnutz....Pretty much negates the entire prattling text wall which preceded it.

Except of course when "The Government" decides that forcing a Woman to undergo a medically un-necessary, and totally invasive vaginal probe and then your all about "The Right of The Government" to decided what medical procedure is done.

IF you do not want want "The Government" to decide medical care, then you cannot support any law or bill that requires a woman to undergo such a procedure.

IF you do not want "Big Government" telling YOU what to do, then you cannot support a ban on Gay/Lesbian Marriage, such a ban is the exact opposite of what you believe.

It is not that you do like "Big Government", its that you want that "Big Government" as long as that "Big Government" serves your political purposes.

That is UNLESS you believe that the unborn baby is a human life just as the baby just emerged from the womb is a human life. UNLESS you believe that there is no stage of human development any less essential to a human life than any other stage of human development. And rather than deny a woman the right to end the human life that she carries, at least insist that she be fully educated and advised that it is a human life that she chooses to end and not some meaningless inconsequential bunch of cells.

I, a staunch conservative, do not want the federal government involved in the issue of abortion at all. Left to govern themselves, I suspect that most states and/or local communities would not pass laws requiring ultrasound procedures before abortions. But a free people is free to act on its convictions and those states or communities who put value on human life at ALL stages should be able to act on their convictions in that matter.

In the end it all comes down to the definition of human life. And because of all the variables that can honestly be included in that, it is always going to come down to the human conscience. Life and liberty, which all conservatives put as most important in the social contract, includes the ability to exercise one's consicence so long as the rights of another are not violated.

It would be less frustrating arguing with liberals if the focus could be there instead of the constant name calling, accusations, hateful inerences, and blatant stupidity etc. etc. etc.

Solid post and I agree with it completely. It comes down to how life is defined. Currently, the legal definition is different than your definition. I disagree with many legal definitions though, so I can empathize with your view.

The last sentence in bold? Hmmm. Why don't you scroll up to Oddball and KosherGirl's post directly above. You will see proof it applies to Conservs as well.

Yet both Oddball and KG CAN and do focus and analyze an issue and articulate a coherent opinion, and when addressed respectfully can and will do so. Otherwise, a lot of conservatives join in and have fun with the food fights when that is all that is offered.

And conservatives operate on and draw conclusions from reason and logic and not assigned definitions of what life is.

So many of our liberal friends here have not yet shown that they can focus and articulate a rationale for a concept or point of view without atacking or accusing or blaming somebody else.

 

[Oddball]

This "all or nothing" mentality is a fabrication of RW media aimed at those who have never traveled or experienced anything beyond what they grew up with. There are a lot of options but the Right has closed the minds of their followers to even considering anything other than what worked in the 1950's. This isn't then.

Nice strawman, Slapnutz....Pretty much negates the entire prattling text wall which preceded it.

Hmmm. Doesn't actually counter or even address any points made. Really fugging stupid. Must be Oddball!

How are ya baby! I forgot about your weak ass! So. Still got zero to offer, zero to counter, zero intellect! The Party of Zero would be proud of you junior!

So where have you lived and had govt. health care? Oh that's right. it's not like you know anything that hasn't been spoon-fed to you. Have a nice day Junior!

The "points" you made were (pretty much like everything else you post) all about you and how incomprehensibly brilliant you believe yourself to be.

That aside, those opposed to socialized medical services aren't the ones with the "all or nothing" mentality...That mindset is what applies to the socialists.

Furthermore, your "this isn't the 1950s" platitude is yet another vapid strawman argument.

You'd think that someone who attempts to play himself off as the most logical and smartest pole smoker in the room would recognize such things before clicking on the submit button....But you're not, so you don't.

 

[koshergrl]

Nice strawman, Slapnutz....Pretty much negates the entire prattling text wall which preceded it.

That is UNLESS you believe that the unborn baby is a human life just as the baby just emerged from the womb is a human life. UNLESS you believe that there is no stage of human development any less essential to a human life than any other stage of human development. And rather than deny a woman the right to end the human life that she carries, at least insist that she be fully educated and advised that it is a human life that she chooses to end and not some meaningless inconsequential bunch of cells.

I, a staunch conservative, do not want the federal government involved in the issue of abortion at all. Left to govern themselves, I suspect that most states and/or local communities would not pass laws requiring ultrasound procedures before abortions. But a free people is free to act on its convictions and those states or communities who put value on human life at ALL stages should be able to act on their convictions in that matter.

In the end it all comes down to the definition of human life. And because of all the variables that can honestly be included in that, it is always going to come down to the human conscience. Life and liberty, which all conservatives put as most important in the social contract, includes the ability to exercise one's consicence so long as the rights of another are not violated.

It would be less frustrating arguing with liberals if the focus could be there instead of the constant name calling, accusations, hateful inerences, and blatant stupidity etc. etc. etc.

Solid post and I agree with it completely. It comes down to how life is defined. Currently, the legal definition is different than your definition. I disagree with many legal definitions though, so I can empathize with your view.

The last sentence in bold? Hmmm. Why don't you scroll up to Oddball and KosherGirl's post directly above. You will see proof it applies to Conservs as well.

Yet both Oddball and KG CAN and do focus and analyze an issue and articulate a coherent opinion, and when addressed respectfully can and will do so. Otherwise, a lot of conservatives join in and have fun with the food fights when that is all that is offered.

So many of our liberal friends here have not yet shown that they can focus and articulate a rationale for a concept or point of view without atacking or accusing or blaming somebody else.

bingo.

Ultimately, there's no point in wasting the effort that goes into articulation and intelligent discourse with people who are incapable of it.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Nice strawman, Slapnutz....Pretty much negates the entire prattling text wall which preceded it.

That is UNLESS you believe that the unborn baby is a human life just as the baby just emerged from the womb is a human life. UNLESS you believe that there is no stage of human development any less essential to a human life than any other stage of human development. And rather than deny a woman the right to end the human life that she carries, at least insist that she be fully educated and advised that it is a human life that she chooses to end and not some meaningless inconsequential bunch of cells.

I, a staunch conservative, do not want the federal government involved in the issue of abortion at all. Left to govern themselves, I suspect that most states and/or local communities would not pass laws requiring ultrasound procedures before abortions. But a free people is free to act on its convictions and those states or communities who put value on human life at ALL stages should be able to act on their convictions in that matter.

In the end it all comes down to the definition of human life. And because of all the variables that can honestly be included in that, it is always going to come down to the human conscience. Life and liberty, which all conservatives put as most important in the social contract, includes the ability to exercise one's consicence so long as the rights of another are not violated.

It would be less frustrating arguing with liberals if the focus could be there instead of the constant name calling, accusations, hateful inerences, and blatant stupidity etc. etc. etc.

Solid post and I agree with it completely. It comes down to how life is defined. Currently, the legal definition is different than your definition. I disagree with many legal definitions though, so I can empathize with your view.

The last sentence in bold? Hmmm. Why don't you scroll up to Oddball and KosherGirl's post directly above. You will see proof it applies to Conservs as well.

Yet both Oddball and KG CAN and do focus and analyze an issue and articulate a coherent opinion, and when addressed respectfully can and will do so. Otherwise, a lot of conservatives join in and have fun with the food fights when that is all that is offered.

And conservatives operate on and draw conclusions from reason and logic and not assigned definitions of what life is.

So many of our liberal friends here have not yet shown that they can focus and articulate a rationale for a concept or point of view without atacking or accusing or blaming somebody else.

Nice strawman, Slapnutz....Pretty much negates the entire prattling text wall which preceded it.

Hmmm. Doesn't actually counter or even address any points made. Really fugging stupid. Must be Oddball!

How are ya baby! I forgot about your weak ass! So. Still got zero to offer, zero to counter, zero intellect! The Party of Zero would be proud of you junior!

So where have you lived and had govt. health care? Oh that's right. it's not like you know anything that hasn't been spoon-fed to you. Have a nice day Junior!

The "points" you made were (pretty much like everything else you post) all about you and how incomprehensibly brilliant you believe yourself to be.

You think that I am government health care in The Ukraine? That's a rather stupid idea. So basically, because I have personal experience to draw upon and you have only the opinions fed to you by your Thought Masters, you have to strawman the fact that I speak from knowledge and you speak from ignorance. This is expected from you.

That aside, those opposed to socialized medical services aren't the ones with the "all or nothing" mentality...That mindset is what applies to the socialists.

Again your argument is really stupid. Do you think there are partial alternatives to a completely socialized health care system? You don't know. Which is wy you Cut & Run from the facts and arguments. That's okay. This too is expected of you.

Furthermore, your "this isn't the 1950s" platitude is yet another vapid strawman argument.

You'd think that someone who attempts to play himself off as the most logical and smartest pole smoker in the room would recognize such things before clicking on the submit button....But you're not, so you don't.

Hmmm. Should I whine about the personal attack? Nah. Not my style. So how exactly is the increase in population and change in demographics from the 1950's a strawman argument? Please specify. Oh wait. You don't do that.

Solid post and I agree with it completely. It comes down to how life is defined. Currently, the legal definition is different than your definition. I disagree with many legal definitions though, so I can empathize with your view.

The last sentence in bold? Hmmm. Why don't you scroll up to Oddball and KosherGirl's post directly above. You will see proof it applies to Conservs as well.

Yet both Oddball and KG CAN and do focus and analyze an issue and articulate a coherent opinion, and when addressed respectfully can and will do so. Otherwise, a lot of conservatives join in and have fun with the food fights when that is all that is offered.

So many of our liberal friends here have not yet shown that they can focus and articulate a rationale for a concept or point of view without atacking or accusing or blaming somebody else.

Nah. I appreciate your loyalty to those of like mind but Oddballs' a blithering idiot (should I have said "pole smoker"? Nah, that's the class displayed by Conservatives) who comes into every thread attacking anyone who disagrees with any of his views, while offering absolutely nothing as a counter. Same with KosherGirl. This thread is a case in point. Did they come in saying "Well, as far as a public option that only covers X" or "I disagree with you on Y Because this is...." Nope. They never do. They come into every thread with complete stupidity, petty insults and nothing to say about points or topics. Want a dozen examples of First Post In Thread where this is all they have? Easy enough to provide.
They make BS excuses for their petty attacks and complete lack of intelligent discourse by saying "Oh um, well you don't get it so i won't even bother to make a valid counter-argument!" Which is obviously complete bull. I offered examples from direct experience and verifiable facts about government health care programs that work. But the mindless kool-aid drinkers are so clueless about say, health care in Indonesia, they just come in with their ignorant rants instead of an open mind or even slightly intelligent counter argument. It's really all they have as their every opinion is spoon fed to them, so they can't deal with a real Independent. Therefore, it is proven that the complaints about Liberals, applies equally to the weaker and more stupid Conservatives on this board as well. There are really intelligent and strong debaters here who are Conservative and Liberal. And there are certainly Liberal versions of Oddball and Koshergirl, as well.

bingo.

Ultimately, there's no point in wasting the effort that goes into articulation and intelligent discourse with people who are incapable of it.

Yes, Kosher. or in your case, there's no point in trying to pretend you have either against someone who does.
Want to Cut & Run from the "Who Is Really an independent Challenge" again? Of COURSE you do. You're a mindless drone who has all you opinions fed to you, so all you have left is stupidity, bumper sticker slogans and insults. Poor little thing. Embarrassing, really.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The reason I mentioned The Ukraine is simply because I used to live there. And Austria and Canada and Mexico and Peru. So tell me Gomer, where exactly have you lived that gives you such expertise on a public option? Yeah, thought so. Internet "experts" are so amusing.

So sparky, do feel free to list all of those packing up for care in the Ukraine?

What? You've got nothing?

And again, I'm not a leftist. You're just a mindless drone who can't think for yourself. Care to see who can prove the other wrong in this regard?
Time for you to Cut & Run Gomer.

Ohh, you're inviting me to prove a negative?

What a surprise...

Say sparky, here is a novel idea, hows about you prove your assertion?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Except of course when "The Government" decides that forcing a Woman to undergo a medically un-necessary, and totally invasive vaginal probe and then your all about "The Right of The Government" to decided what medical procedure is done.

Say, would you provide a citation of the last three instances that the "government" forced a woman to undergo a "vaginal probe?"

I mean, unless you're lying about this, as leftists tend to do.....

 

[Oddball]

Hmmm. Should I whine about the personal attack? Nah. Not my style. So how exactly is the increase in population and change in demographics from the 1950's a strawman argument? Please specify. Oh wait. You don't do that.

Because none of those things are relevant to the workings of a free market on any scale, which existed in the realm of the delivery of medical services in the 1950s far more so than it does today.

But if I were as committed to trying to prove to everyone what a genius I am as you are, I'd probably want to divert from little details like that, too.

 

[Truthseeker420]

 

[koshergrl]

Except of course when "The Government" decides that forcing a Woman to undergo a medically un-necessary, and totally invasive vaginal probe and then your all about "The Right of The Government" to decided what medical procedure is done.

Say, would you provide a citation of the last three instances that the "government" forced a woman to undergo a "vaginal probe?"

I mean, unless you're lying about this, as leftists tend to do.....

They just like to use the term and promote that image.

Cuz they're all about maintaining the dignity of women.

 

[IndependntLogic]

The reason I mentioned The Ukraine is simply because I used to live there. And Austria and Canada and Mexico and Peru. So tell me Gomer, where exactly have you lived that gives you such expertise on a public option? Yeah, thought so. Internet "experts" are so amusing.

So sparky, do feel free to list all of those packing up for care in the Ukraine?

What? You've got nothing?

And again, I'm not a leftist. You're just a mindless drone who can't think for yourself. Care to see who can prove the other wrong in this regard?
Time for you to Cut & Run Gomer.

Ohh, you're inviting me to prove a negative?

What a surprise...

Say sparky, here is a novel idea, hows about you prove your assertion?

No. Sorry let me dumb this down for you. I can prove that you are a mindless drone who doesn't think for yourself but rather, has the RW sources tell you what to think. I can also prove that I have as many (or close to) Conservative views as I do Liberal because I DO think for myself. Those are both posities junior. You call anyone disageeing with you a "Leftist" because it's all you have. It's not like you have fact, tatitics, direct knowledge etc... to back you up.

Hmmm. Should I whine about the personal attack? Nah. Not my style. So how exactly is the increase in population and change in demographics from the 1950's a strawman argument? Please specify. Oh wait. You don't do that.

Because none of those things are relevant to the workings of a free market on any scale, which existed in the realm of the delivery of medical services in the 1950s far more so than it does today.

But if I were as committed to trying to prove to everyone what a genius I am as you are, I'd probably want to divert from little details like that, too.

Regarding the genius thing, it's not my fault that you have an inferiority complex and therefore project this onto others. Psychologists refer this as "transference". Since you feel so insecure, you transfer the source of the negative emotions to those to whom you see as the source of those insecurities. While I am secure with my intellect, there are a lot of highly intelligent people here. It's not my fault that you're not one of them.

Regarding the change in demographics etc... since the 1950's, this is obviously beyond your ken if you think that the delivery of a product or service is never effected by such factors in a free market. When you are able to think beyond the cute little bumper sticker phrases and slogans that have been spoon-fed to you, you'll be better equipped to discuss them.
A truly free market has almost never existed, nor will it and for good reason. A truly free market is completely unregulated - sort of ConservaRepub / Libertarian's dream. Of course with all that freedom for corporations comes a few downsides. Envrionmental disasters, dangerous or even lethal products, child labor and so on. So the Libetarian blabber about a "free market" being the panacea to all our woes is pure nonsense. No industrialized nation in the world has ever been so stupid as to be purely capitalist. Without at least minimal social protection, we'd all be living in Uganda. But hey, you're welcome to tell me how a company would cease to exist if it harmed consumers or employees!