What Leftism Does to People

[The Gadfly]

For the few hypocritical, cognizantly challenged, reading dysfunctional, and brainwashed among us, Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people. (The scary thing as that some of these people that can't seem to read and comprehend claim to have college degrees, teachers of children, or be engaged in other careers that influence minds. Shudder.)

Again Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people.

What he did say is:
Leftism is bad for people. It makes them awful.

There is a huge difference in those two things.

In the illustration he is using in his thesis, conservatism provokes courtesy, good citizenship, respect for the rights and property of others, and other behavior that responsible grown ups teach and promote. Pretty much without exception the Tea Partiers, 9/12ers, and similar groups have produced such exemplary behavior.

Leftism, however, has produced people such as we see in some of the Occupy groups who are defecating in the street, littering and trashing public and private properties, defacing, damaging, and destroying public and private property, and disrupting the livelihoods of people in the area. In other words, leftism produces spoiled, hateful, insensitive, selfish, bratty, immature human beings demanding that others give them what they want and don't give a flying fig about the rights of anybody else.

Who any sense of propriety would not call that awful?

The conservatives on this thread continue to appreciate the behavior of the Tea Partiers et al and condemn the behavior of the Occupy groups.

The leftists on this thread continue to scorn the Tea Partiers and defend, make excuses for, or deflect from the behavior of the Occupy groups and call this a flame thread. Almost no effort whatsoever to reflect on the topic. Just condemnation for those who think we need to have a conversation about it.

I wonder if we have arrive at a point in which leftism has made it impossible to even have a conservation about this. Or are we already too far gone?

It is well beyond that, Foxfyre; it has been for a while now. The Left is not amenable to reason; their goal is a totalitarian state, and the destruction of conservatism. Therefore, our goal must ultimately be the destruction of the Left. We cannot co-exist with their ideology, nor should we desire to. This can only end in conflict, winner take all. Whether this gets settled through the political process, or eventually is settled by war, we cannot at present know, but the possibility of the latter is growing. I believe, that if it comes to that, our goal must be victory, by whatever means necessary. Meanwhile, we have no recourse but to fight them, and all they stand for, with every lawful means at our disposal.

NO MORE COMPROMISE, NO MORE NEGOTIATION, NO MORE DISCUSSION, NO MORE APPEASEMENT, NO MORE ACCOMMODATION! We can have NO common ground with the Left, on ANYTHING! The Left is the enemy, this is political war, and the gloves are OFF!

 

[Bfgrn]

For the few hypocritical, cognizantly challenged, reading dysfunctional, and brainwashed among us, Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people. (The scary thing as that some of these people that can't seem to read and comprehend claim to have college degrees, teachers of children, or be engaged in other careers that influence minds. Shudder.)

Again Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people.

What he did say is:
Leftism is bad for people. It makes them awful.

There is a huge difference in those two things.

In the illustration he is using in his thesis, conservatism provokes courtesy, good citizenship, respect for the rights and property of others, and other behavior that responsible grown ups teach and promote. Pretty much without exception the Tea Partiers, 9/12ers, and similar groups have produced such exemplary behavior.

Leftism, however, has produced people such as we see in some of the Occupy groups who are defecating in the street, littering and trashing public and private properties, defacing, damaging, and destroying public and private property, and disrupting the livelihoods of people in the area. In other words, leftism produces spoiled, hateful, insensitive, selfish, bratty, immature human beings demanding that others give them what they want and don't give a flying fig about the rights of anybody else.

Who any sense of propriety would not call that awful?

The conservatives on this thread continue to appreciate the behavior of the Tea Partiers et al and condemn the behavior of the Occupy groups.

The leftists on this thread continue to scorn the Tea Partiers and defend, make excuses for, or deflect from the behavior of the Occupy groups and call this a flame thread. Almost no effort whatsoever to reflect on the topic. Just condemnation for those who think we need to have a conversation about it.

I wonder if we have arrive at a point in which leftism has made it impossible to even have a conservation about this. Or are we already too far gone?

It is well beyond that, Foxfyre; it has been for a while now. The Left is not amenable to reason; their goal is a totalitarian state, and the destruction of conservatism. Therefore, our goal must ultimately be the destruction of the Left. We cannot co-exist with their ideology, nor should we desire to. This can only end in conflict, winner take all. Whether this gets settled through the political process, or eventually is settled by war, we cannot at present know, but the possibility of the latter is growing. I believe, that if it comes to that, our goal must be victory, by whatever means necessary. Meanwhile, we have no recourse but to fight them, and all they stand for, with every lawful means at our disposal.

NO MORE COMPROMISE, NO MORE NEGOTIATION, NO MORE DISCUSSION, NO MORE APPEASEMENT, NO MORE ACCOMMODATION! We can have NO common ground with the Left, on ANYTHING! The Left is the enemy, this is political war, and the gloves are OFF!

WOW, pure emotion with no moderation or thought. A perfect representative of what has completely overtaken the right in this country. The brainwashed authoritarian follower personified.

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.
Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Sky Dancer]

For the few hypocritical, cognizantly challenged, reading dysfunctional, and brainwashed among us, Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people. (The scary thing as that some of these people that can't seem to read and comprehend claim to have college degrees, teachers of children, or be engaged in other careers that influence minds. Shudder.)

Again Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people.

What he did say is:
Leftism is bad for people. It makes them awful.

There is a huge difference in those two things.

In the illustration he is using in his thesis, conservatism provokes courtesy, good citizenship, respect for the rights and property of others, and other behavior that responsible grown ups teach and promote. Pretty much without exception the Tea Partiers, 9/12ers, and similar groups have produced such exemplary behavior.

Leftism, however, has produced people such as we see in some of the Occupy groups who are defecating in the street, littering and trashing public and private properties, defacing, damaging, and destroying public and private property, and disrupting the livelihoods of people in the area. In other words, leftism produces spoiled, hateful, insensitive, selfish, bratty, immature human beings demanding that others give them what they want and don't give a flying fig about the rights of anybody else.

Who any sense of propriety would not call that awful?

The conservatives on this thread continue to appreciate the behavior of the Tea Partiers et al and condemn the behavior of the Occupy groups.

The leftists on this thread continue to scorn the Tea Partiers and defend, make excuses for, or deflect from the behavior of the Occupy groups and call this a flame thread. Almost no effort whatsoever to reflect on the topic. Just condemnation for those who think we need to have a conversation about it.

I wonder if we have arrive at a point in which leftism has made it impossible to even have a conservation about this. Or are we already too far gone?

It is well beyond that, Foxfyre; it has been for a while now. The Left is not amenable to reason; their goal is a totalitarian state, and the destruction of conservatism. Therefore, our goal must ultimately be the destruction of the Left. We cannot co-exist with their ideology, nor should we desire to. This can only end in conflict, winner take all. Whether this gets settled through the political process, or eventually is settled by war, we cannot at present know, but the possibility of the latter is growing. I believe, that if it comes to that, our goal must be victory, by whatever means necessary. Meanwhile, we have no recourse but to fight them, and all they stand for, with every lawful means at our disposal.

NO MORE COMPROMISE, NO MORE NEGOTIATION, NO MORE DISCUSSION, NO MORE APPEASEMENT, NO MORE ACCOMMODATION! We can have NO common ground with the Left, on ANYTHING! The Left is the enemy, this is political war, and the gloves are OFF!

This is a perfect example of why the right isn't interested in dialogue with the left. You're at war with us.

I hope you and FF come to your senses soon.

YOu may not like left wing ideas, but we are fellow citizens with rights. We are NOT your enemy.

The war is on you. I'm not joining.

I'm going to vote. I hope you join me.

 

[Foxfyre]

For the few hypocritical, cognizantly challenged, reading dysfunctional, and brainwashed among us, Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people. (The scary thing as that some of these people that can't seem to read and comprehend claim to have college degrees, teachers of children, or be engaged in other careers that influence minds. Shudder.)

Again Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people.

What he did say is:
Leftism is bad for people. It makes them awful.

There is a huge difference in those two things.

In the illustration he is using in his thesis, conservatism provokes courtesy, good citizenship, respect for the rights and property of others, and other behavior that responsible grown ups teach and promote. Pretty much without exception the Tea Partiers, 9/12ers, and similar groups have produced such exemplary behavior.

Leftism, however, has produced people such as we see in some of the Occupy groups who are defecating in the street, littering and trashing public and private properties, defacing, damaging, and destroying public and private property, and disrupting the livelihoods of people in the area. In other words, leftism produces spoiled, hateful, insensitive, selfish, bratty, immature human beings demanding that others give them what they want and don't give a flying fig about the rights of anybody else.

Who any sense of propriety would not call that awful?

The conservatives on this thread continue to appreciate the behavior of the Tea Partiers et al and condemn the behavior of the Occupy groups.

The leftists on this thread continue to scorn the Tea Partiers and defend, make excuses for, or deflect from the behavior of the Occupy groups and call this a flame thread. Almost no effort whatsoever to reflect on the topic. Just condemnation for those who think we need to have a conversation about it.

I wonder if we have arrive at a point in which leftism has made it impossible to even have a conservation about this. Or are we already too far gone?

It is well beyond that, Foxfyre; it has been for a while now. The Left is not amenable to reason; their goal is a totalitarian state, and the destruction of conservatism. Therefore, our goal must ultimately be the destruction of the Left. We cannot co-exist with their ideology, nor should we desire to. This can only end in conflict, winner take all. Whether this gets settled through the political process, or eventually is settled by war, we cannot at present know, but the possibility of the latter is growing. I believe, that if it comes to that, our goal must be victory, by whatever means necessary. Meanwhile, we have no recourse but to fight them, and all they stand for, with every lawful means at our disposal.

NO MORE COMPROMISE, NO MORE NEGOTIATION, NO MORE DISCUSSION, NO MORE APPEASEMENT, NO MORE ACCOMMODATION! We can have NO common ground with the Left, on ANYTHING! The Left is the enemy, this is political war, and the gloves are OFF!

LOL, well I'm not quite ready to put all the leftists in concentration camps quite yet. There are more than a few that I'm quite fond of and I would hate to lose those that I read regularly.

I know with all my heart that conservatism, modern American style, does produce the most beneficial and pleasing society, offers the most freedom, compassion, opportunity, prosperity, and respect for the creativity, ingenuity, and productiveness of the human, mind, spirit, and ability. A society that values and protects unalienable rights and freedom tempered by voluntary restraint is the closest thing we will achieve to Utopia on Planet Earth.

But I think we need to keep a few thinking liberals around to keep the process honest. Sometimes we conservatives need to be reminded of the short term consequences of actions taken so that we can temper our decision making to not cause unnecessary distress for people or so that we can mitigate it as much as possible. Liberals also tend to write better poetry than conservatives do. And we need to be reminded also of what liberalism, modern American style, can produce which is what we see in some of those Occupy groups. We need to be reminded so that we don't forget.

I think our goal should not be destruction of the Left but simply to keep preaching, teaching, pushing, and demonstrating modern American conservatism; i.e. Classical Liberalism. We need to keep taking our kids out of leftist schools so that they can get a complete education and won't be subject to indoctrination by the 'state'. Humankind has overcome adversity far far worse than what we have in America today and I have every faith that if we properly educate enough people, we can overcome today's adversity too.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

You guys got pissed when we called the Tea Party protesters becAuse a few were, why do the very same thing you were pissed about?

The Tea Party's for the most part were Rallies, not Demonstrations. They were planned, they got their Permit's, they had a Schedule. They came, they Rallied, they went home.

The OWS Demonstrations are not Rallies. Multiple Zoning Laws are being broken and ignored. Health Issues ans Safety issues arise everyday. The planning is poor, too many are unaccountable, and that puts people and property at risk.

There is little comparison between the two.

Both Entities need to take responsibility for the actions, and what those actions manifest, and adhere to Nonviolence. That is Oversight. There is no excuse for losing control of your participants in that way. It is about Responsibility. Yes, OWS has a Right to Protest, Civilly. They have no right to violate Health Laws.

Well said!

And the reason I know what most are protesting is because I listen to what they ate saying. By this I also know your view of them is mostly wrong. You ate judging them by what you have seen on Fox. The movements are mostly non violent, not anti semantic, along with whatever you are spouting. The right just has a habit of judging many by a few. You do the same thing with so called welfare moms.
You might not be controlled by your government, but you are controlled by your stereotypes.

Luissa I went to occupy boston 2 times now.....they are the ones who have shaped my opinion of the movement's views.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Yes it began with Carter managing to get legislation passed to make it easier for the poor to buy homes. The rules were written in a responsible way at that time, however. In the Clinton administration, the bureaucrats started rewriting the rules and putting pressure for riskier and risker loans on Freddie and Fannie who attempted to minimize their own risk by bundling bad loans with good ones and selling these off to the financial institutions. As the bubble was building, it was highly lucrative and many jumped on the band wagon to get a piece of that pie.

The irresponsible policies continued well into the Bush administration. To his credit President Bush and a few others were sounding the alarm in the last few years before the crash, but the then Democratically controlled Congress continued to support Freddie and Fannie and deny there was a problem. Then when there was an economic downturn, people who had no investment in their homes began defaulting not in the hundrds but in the tens of thousands. And the bubble burst.

So now the Occupy groups blame Wallstreet for the problem. Wallstreet never would have been a problem if it had not been for an irresponsible Congress and bureaucracy. Wallstreet may indeed be guilty of crimes, but the Occupy groups are trying to hang them for a crime they did not commit.

And the Occupy groups are doing that by utter disregard for decency, the law, and the rights and property of others.

Is it the leftist mentality that prompts them to behave that way?

Is there anybody brave enough to tackle that question?

You want to smear anyone with leftist politics based on your "outraged sensibilities" about how some people are behaving at a protest.

Why not simply ask why do people behave this way in a crowd, rather than presuming it's the politics.

We have many examples of peaceful demonstrations by left leaning citizens. Of course, that doesn't fit your prejudice and hatred of people whose politics are different from yours.

I am still shaking my head at your ignorance about Katrina survivors. It sounded very close to racism.

The thread was comparing the actions of the left (OWS), to the actions of the conservatives (TEA party). The behavior between the two groups is vastly different. There seems to be a pattern: when the left gathers, there is immoral behavior; when the conservatives gather, there are few problems (other than the lefties trying to stir up trouble and no one taking the bait).
And please, give us these examples of "peaceful" demonstrations and give the numbers along with it, because at the TEA party rally in DC there were over 2 million, and there was not the mess, the violence, the gov't having to pay extra to "watch", or the outright crime that has been done at the OWS in NYC with a fraction of the people.

And the premise of the first post in the thread is to say that liberalism breeds this type of behavior in individuals more than conservatism does.

We were supposedly going to discuss the merits of that premise but some people got lost along the way

 

[Sky Dancer]

For the few hypocritical, cognizantly challenged, reading dysfunctional, and brainwashed among us, Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people. (The scary thing as that some of these people that can't seem to read and comprehend claim to have college degrees, teachers of children, or be engaged in other careers that influence minds. Shudder.)

Again Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people.

What he did say is:
Leftism is bad for people. It makes them awful.

There is a huge difference in those two things.

In the illustration he is using in his thesis, conservatism provokes courtesy, good citizenship, respect for the rights and property of others, and other behavior that responsible grown ups teach and promote. Pretty much without exception the Tea Partiers, 9/12ers, and similar groups have produced such exemplary behavior.

Leftism, however, has produced people such as we see in some of the Occupy groups who are defecating in the street, littering and trashing public and private properties, defacing, damaging, and destroying public and private property, and disrupting the livelihoods of people in the area. In other words, leftism produces spoiled, hateful, insensitive, selfish, bratty, immature human beings demanding that others give them what they want and don't give a flying fig about the rights of anybody else.

Who any sense of propriety would not call that awful?

The conservatives on this thread continue to appreciate the behavior of the Tea Partiers et al and condemn the behavior of the Occupy groups.

The leftists on this thread continue to scorn the Tea Partiers and defend, make excuses for, or deflect from the behavior of the Occupy groups and call this a flame thread. Almost no effort whatsoever to reflect on the topic. Just condemnation for those who think we need to have a conversation about it.

I wonder if we have arrive at a point in which leftism has made it impossible to even have a conservation about this. Or are we already too far gone?

It is well beyond that, Foxfyre; it has been for a while now. The Left is not amenable to reason; their goal is a totalitarian state, and the destruction of conservatism. Therefore, our goal must ultimately be the destruction of the Left. We cannot co-exist with their ideology, nor should we desire to. This can only end in conflict, winner take all. Whether this gets settled through the political process, or eventually is settled by war, we cannot at present know, but the possibility of the latter is growing. I believe, that if it comes to that, our goal must be victory, by whatever means necessary. Meanwhile, we have no recourse but to fight them, and all they stand for, with every lawful means at our disposal.

NO MORE COMPROMISE, NO MORE NEGOTIATION, NO MORE DISCUSSION, NO MORE APPEASEMENT, NO MORE ACCOMMODATION! We can have NO common ground with the Left, on ANYTHING! The Left is the enemy, this is political war, and the gloves are OFF!

LOL, well I'm not quite ready to put all the leftists in concentration camps quite yet. There are more than a few that I'm quite fond of and I would hate to lose those that I read regularly.

I know with all my heart that conservatism, modern American style, does produce the most beneficial and pleasing society, offers the most freedom, compassion, opportunity, prosperity, and respect for the creativity, ingenuity, and productiveness of the human, mind, spirit, and ability. A society that values and protects unalienable rights and freedom tempered by voluntary restraint is the closest thing we will achieve to Utopia on Planet Earth.

But I think we need to keep a few thinking liberals around to keep the process honest. Sometimes we conservatives need to be reminded of the short term consequences of actions taken so that we can temper our decision making to not cause unnecessary distress for people or so that we can mitigate it as much as possible. Liberals also tend to write better poetry than conservatives do. And we need to be reminded also of what liberalism, modern American style, can produce which is what we see in some of those Occupy groups. We need to be reminded so that we don't forget.

I think our goal should not be destruction of the Left but simply to keep preaching, teaching, pushing, and demonstrating modern American conservatism; i.e. Classical Liberalism. We need to keep taking our kids out of leftist schools so that they can get a complete education and won't be subject to indoctrination by the 'state'. Humankind has overcome adversity far far worse than what we have in America today and I have every faith that if we properly educate enough people, we can overcome today's adversity too.

Clearly, this post indicates the right want's to dominate the left, not to engage in dialogue. The poster isn't ready for liberal concentration camp, because she wants to save her few liberal friends. The rest of us can go to hell.

The post promotes the idea that we should indoctrinate our populace with right wing views. Keep kids away from being exposed to other political views.

The poster wants to keep a few liberals around to write poetry, the rest? Who cares? Get them away from our children. As if liberals were a threat to children. I work with elementary school children and I don't "indoctrinate" them with Marxism. What a ridiculous idea.

This post is more subdued than previous ones but is still full of stereotypes and prejudice. Even the "they write better poetry" nonsense. I wouldn't say the RW write worse poetry than the left. It's a silly claim.

The OP and this poster are not interested in a respectful dialogue with liberals or people whose politics lean left or they wouldn't say our views cause us to be "awful people."

Peeing and shitting in public, defacing and destroying property is "awful" behavior, it is anarchy. The OP confuses the people behaving badly at OWS with leftism and anarchy.

The case cannot be made that leftist politics breed "awful people".

 

[Sky Dancer]

You want to smear anyone with leftist politics based on your "outraged sensibilities" about how some people are behaving at a protest.

Why not simply ask why do people behave this way in a crowd, rather than presuming it's the politics.

We have many examples of peaceful demonstrations by left leaning citizens. Of course, that doesn't fit your prejudice and hatred of people whose politics are different from yours.

I am still shaking my head at your ignorance about Katrina survivors. It sounded very close to racism.

The thread was comparing the actions of the left (OWS), to the actions of the conservatives (TEA party). The behavior between the two groups is vastly different. There seems to be a pattern: when the left gathers, there is immoral behavior; when the conservatives gather, there are few problems (other than the lefties trying to stir up trouble and no one taking the bait).
And please, give us these examples of "peaceful" demonstrations and give the numbers along with it, because at the TEA party rally in DC there were over 2 million, and there was not the mess, the violence, the gov't having to pay extra to "watch", or the outright crime that has been done at the OWS in NYC with a fraction of the people.

And the premise of the first post in the thread is to say that liberalism breeds this type of behavior in individuals more than conservatism does.

We were supposedly going to discuss the merits of that premise but some people got lost along the way

That's because there are no merits to that premise, and the RW won't give up. They just want to stir up divisiveness rather than discuss differing ideas and ideology.

YOu can't have a decent conversation with someone who consider you an "awful person".

Conservatism may breed "polite" behavior, on the surface, a lot of "holier than thou" rhetorica, but I'm not convinced after listeing to Rush, Coulter and Beck they breed "polite". They aren't polite at all. The RW has it's own share of scoundrels.

This is a really stupid argument with no other goal than to bash liberal citizens and turn us into YOUR enemies.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The thread was comparing the actions of the left (OWS), to the actions of the conservatives (TEA party). The behavior between the two groups is vastly different. There seems to be a pattern: when the left gathers, there is immoral behavior; when the conservatives gather, there are few problems (other than the lefties trying to stir up trouble and no one taking the bait).
And please, give us these examples of "peaceful" demonstrations and give the numbers along with it, because at the TEA party rally in DC there were over 2 million, and there was not the mess, the violence, the gov't having to pay extra to "watch", or the outright crime that has been done at the OWS in NYC with a fraction of the people.

And the premise of the first post in the thread is to say that liberalism breeds this type of behavior in individuals more than conservatism does.

We were supposedly going to discuss the merits of that premise but some people got lost along the way

That's because there are no merits to that premise, and the RW won't give up. They just want to stir up divisiveness rather than discuss differing ideas and ideology.

YOu can't have a decent conversation with someone who consider you an "awful person".

On the contrary several posts in this thread have backed up that premise. For example comparing the worst behavior of some OWS protestors with the worst behavior of some of the TEA party protestors.

 

[Foxfyre]

You guys got pissed when we called the Tea Party protesters becAuse a few were, why do the very same thing you were pissed about?

The Tea Party's for the most part were Rallies, not Demonstrations. They were planned, they got their Permit's, they had a Schedule. They came, they Rallied, they went home.

The OWS Demonstrations are not Rallies. Multiple Zoning Laws are being broken and ignored. Health Issues ans Safety issues arise everyday. The planning is poor, too many are unaccountable, and that puts people and property at risk.

There is little comparison between the two.

Both Entities need to take responsibility for the actions, and what those actions manifest, and adhere to Nonviolence. That is Oversight. There is no excuse for losing control of your participants in that way. It is about Responsibility. Yes, OWS has a Right to Protest, Civilly. They have no right to violate Health Laws.

Well said!

And the reason I know what most are protesting is because I listen to what they ate saying. By this I also know your view of them is mostly wrong. You ate judging them by what you have seen on Fox. The movements are mostly non violent, not anti semantic, along with whatever you are spouting. The right just has a habit of judging many by a few. You do the same thing with so called welfare moms.
You might not be controlled by your government, but you are controlled by your stereotypes.

Luissa I went to occupy boston 2 times now.....they are the ones who have shaped my opinion of the movement's views.

I didn't intentionally go to an Occupy Albuquerque rally but got caught up in one when trying to get my Aunt to a doctor's appointment. Because they refused to allow cars to pass on the street, we were late to the appointment. I have also watched some of a livestream somebody set up. The group has changed its name to (un)Occupy Albuqeurque because some of the members objected to the term 'occupy' as too reminiscent of when the Spanish Conquistadors occupied this area.

The group did start out intentionally non violent and peaceful, but like most of the other Occupy groups dissolved into antisocial behavior as the days went by. It first turned violent when UNM refused to renew a permit for an Occupy group camped out in a small park on campus. The group was urinating, defecating, and generally trashing the park, destroying landscaping, damaging trees etc.. The ACLU intervened on behalf of the Occupy group and something was worked out. There have been other incidents of civil disobedience in destructive ways and some arrests have been made.

All this is to say that even when the organizers try to keep things civil and neighborly, leftism seems to promote antisocial and destructive, even violent, behavior in people that conservatism doesn't seem to promote.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The Tea Party's for the most part were Rallies, not Demonstrations. They were planned, they got their Permit's, they had a Schedule. They came, they Rallied, they went home.

The OWS Demonstrations are not Rallies. Multiple Zoning Laws are being broken and ignored. Health Issues ans Safety issues arise everyday. The planning is poor, too many are unaccountable, and that puts people and property at risk.

There is little comparison between the two.

Both Entities need to take responsibility for the actions, and what those actions manifest, and adhere to Nonviolence. That is Oversight. There is no excuse for losing control of your participants in that way. It is about Responsibility. Yes, OWS has a Right to Protest, Civilly. They have no right to violate Health Laws.

Well said!

And the reason I know what most are protesting is because I listen to what they ate saying. By this I also know your view of them is mostly wrong. You ate judging them by what you have seen on Fox. The movements are mostly non violent, not anti semantic, along with whatever you are spouting. The right just has a habit of judging many by a few. You do the same thing with so called welfare moms.
You might not be controlled by your government, but you are controlled by your stereotypes.

Luissa I went to occupy boston 2 times now.....they are the ones who have shaped my opinion of the movement's views.

I didn't intentionally go to an Occupy Albuquerque rally but got caught up in one when trying to get my Aunt to a doctor's appointment. Because they refused to allow cars to pass on the street, we were late to the appointment. I have also watched some of a livestream somebody set up. The group has changed its name to (un)Occupy Albuqeurque because some of the members objected to the term 'occupy' as too reminiscent of when the Spanish Conquistadors occupied this area.

The group did start out intentionally non violent and peaceful, but like most of the other Occupy groups dissolved into antisocial behavior as the days went by. It first turned violent when UNM refused to renew a permit for an Occupy group camped out in a small park on campus. The group was urinating, defecating, and generally trashing the park, destroying landscaping, damaging trees etc.. The ACLU intervened on behalf of the Occupy group and something was worked out. There have been other incidents of civil disobedience in destructive ways and some arrests have been made.

All this is to say that even when the organizers try to keep things civil and neighborly, leftism seems to promote antisocial and destructive, even violent, behavior in people that conservatism doesn't seem to promote.

I choose to go on purpose. I figured it was the least I could do if I am going to discuss them on the internet. I find it much easier to make valid claims when I actually went to an event instead of just commenting on what media outlets reported on in regards to it.

The boston one didn't give me any impression of violence. Yes they showed blatant disregard for some laws (public exposure/defecation, public intoxication, drug violations, private property rights) and sure they destroyed all the bushes and SOD we payed tax money to plant 3 months ago but they weren't violent.

Most of them are actually college students and many of them come from families that aren't all that bad off. Their complaints about corporate compensation and having to start off at the bottom when you first get a job somewhere just struck me as greedy and lazy. Its hard to shake that impression when you see a lot of the comments on the news about how they want to "eat the rich" or don't want to take jobs when someone sets up a job table because the starting pay is $12/hour or its not a company they prefer to work for. http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...ith-a-table-filled-with-job-applications.html <---we discussed that there.

 

[Sky Dancer]

And the premise of the first post in the thread is to say that liberalism breeds this type of behavior in individuals more than conservatism does.

We were supposedly going to discuss the merits of that premise but some people got lost along the way

That's because there are no merits to that premise, and the RW won't give up. They just want to stir up divisiveness rather than discuss differing ideas and ideology.

YOu can't have a decent conversation with someone who consider you an "awful person".

On the contrary several posts in this thread have backed up that premise. For example comparing the worst behavior of some OWS protestors with the worst behavior of some of the TEA party protestors.

You still don't make the premise that "leftism" makes people "awful". The RW is not interested in a conversation about political ideas and solutions to national problems, only with stereotyping and shutting down dialogue.

Who the hell wants to talk to ANYONE who thinks you're an "awful person".

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

That's because there are no merits to that premise, and the RW won't give up. They just want to stir up divisiveness rather than discuss differing ideas and ideology.

YOu can't have a decent conversation with someone who consider you an "awful person".

On the contrary several posts in this thread have backed up that premise. For example comparing the worst behavior of some OWS protestors with the worst behavior of some of the TEA party protestors.

You still don't make the premise that "leftism" makes people "awful".

EDIT:You still don't make the premise that "leftism" makes people "awful". The RW is not interested in a conversation about political ideas and solutions to national problems, only with stereotyping and shutting down dialogue.

Who the hell wants to talk to ANYONE who thinks you're an "awful person".

The premise is that liberalisms values more readily lend themselves to poor indivdual behavior within a society than conservative values do.

No one claims liberalism or conservatism makes people good or bad, the claim is that one lends itself to negative societal behavior more readily than the other....individuals are the ones who make their own choices in the end.


EDIT: You edited i'm just editing in your edit.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The Tea Party's for the most part were Rallies, not Demonstrations. They were planned, they got their Permit's, they had a Schedule. They came, they Rallied, they went home.

The OWS Demonstrations are not Rallies. Multiple Zoning Laws are being broken and ignored. Health Issues ans Safety issues arise everyday. The planning is poor, too many are unaccountable, and that puts people and property at risk.

There is little comparison between the two.

Both Entities need to take responsibility for the actions, and what those actions manifest, and adhere to Nonviolence. That is Oversight. There is no excuse for losing control of your participants in that way. It is about Responsibility. Yes, OWS has a Right to Protest, Civilly. They have no right to violate Health Laws.

Well said!

And the reason I know what most are protesting is because I listen to what they ate saying. By this I also know your view of them is mostly wrong. You ate judging them by what you have seen on Fox. The movements are mostly non violent, not anti semantic, along with whatever you are spouting. The right just has a habit of judging many by a few. You do the same thing with so called welfare moms.
You might not be controlled by your government, but you are controlled by your stereotypes.

Luissa I went to occupy boston 2 times now.....they are the ones who have shaped my opinion of the movement's views.

I didn't intentionally go to an Occupy Albuquerque rally but got caught up in one when trying to get my Aunt to a doctor's appointment. Because they refused to allow cars to pass on the street, we were late to the appointment. I have also watched some of a livestream somebody set up. The group has changed its name to (un)Occupy Albuqeurque because some of the members objected to the term 'occupy' as too reminiscent of when the Spanish Conquistadors occupied this area.

The group did start out intentionally non violent and peaceful, but like most of the other Occupy groups dissolved into antisocial behavior as the days went by. It first turned violent when UNM refused to renew a permit for an Occupy group camped out in a small park on campus. The group was urinating, defecating, and generally trashing the park, destroying landscaping, damaging trees etc.. The ACLU intervened on behalf of the Occupy group and something was worked out. There have been other incidents of civil disobedience in destructive ways and some arrests have been made.

All this is to say that even when the organizers try to keep things civil and neighborly, leftism seems to promote antisocial and destructive, even violent, behavior in people that conservatism doesn't seem to promote.

You continue to assert that it is conservatism that makes people behave. That's ridiculous.

Thoughout history, we have had MANY demonstrations by people on the left that were peaceful, non-violent and not criminal.

You've got a SEVERE prejudice against liberals and those of us with left leaning politics.

You continue to assert that somehow being conservative make YOU and yours superior human beings.

This is bias.

I'm sure you would NEVER consider the possibility of agitators from the RW being planted into OWS to cause problems.

When I marched as a youth, because we were organized, we knew how to identify these outside agitators, (sometimes police and government) and to resist their influence.

I don't know what is causing the problem with OWS. There is plenty of speculation. But YOUR premise may lead to fascism, IMO.

You'd like to squash all influence of politics that don't meet your conservative standards. (keep those people away from indoctrinating our children).

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

It's kinda a chicken and egg thing. Does leftism tend to drive one into the murky depths of complete insanity, or, does being completely insane just tend to make you gravitate toward the left?

I dunno.

 

[Kiki Cannoli]

We humans have much to learn. Until we treat each other as unique, special and curious creatures, rather than judging and claiming moral superiority the decline of humanity will continue.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm sorry, but I think people who think it is okay to defecate in public, destroy public property, block access and prevent people from going about their business, close down businesses by making it too unpleasant or threatening to enter the area, and generally violate other people's rights are awful.

I guess you leftist who think it is wrong to describe violent and antisocial Occupiers as 'awful' don't think the Westboro Baptist Church protesting at funerals or Skinheads taunting gays and minorities or people blocking abortion clinics are 'awful' either, huh.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I think an interesting thread might be stereotypes the left and the right have of each other.

One stereotype the right have about the left is we are PRO BIG GOVERNMENT and we think government should solve every social issue.

Bullshit. My wife works for the county as an accountant. The government is inefficient, stupid and wasteful. She could tell you stories that would make your hair curl. Up until the last few years she has always worked in private business. The government is poorly run.

I watched the Watergate hearings. I have ZERO trust in government.

I do support funding for education, libraries, law enforcement, roads, unemployment insurance, food stamps, defense etc.

I have traveled in too many third world countries to think that what our services to the poor should look like is theirs.

I don't buy that charity will solve EVERY social need. Especially, IMO, when proselytizing and discriminating against non-religious is part of their game.

Of course, FF won't respond to this post, because I'm one of those "awful people" with left wing views.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm sorry, but I think people who think it is okay to defecate in public, destroy public property, block access and prevent people from going about their business, close down businesses by making it too unpleasant or threatening to enter the area, and generally violate other people's rights are awful.

I guess you leftist who think it is wrong to describe violent and antisocial Occupiers as 'awful' don't think the Westboro Baptist Church protesting at funerals or Skinheads taunting gays and minorities or people blocking abortion clinics are 'awful' either, huh.

Link to ONE leftist poster here who approves of urinating and defecating in publics and destroying property.

It's pretty hypocritical of the RW to have NO problem with anti-abortion activists blocking access to medical care, but it's ONLY the LEFTISTS who are "awful people".

For the record, the AWFUL behavior of some of the OWS demonstrators has NOTHING to do with liberalism.

I guess you don't know the difference between anarchists and liberals. The OP doesn't call the OWS occupiers "awful". He says leftism makes people, ALL people, awful. THAT IS BIGOTRY PURE AND SIMPLE. His premise is left leaning political views are inherently evil. FF agrees. His premise is conservatism is inherently holy, FF agrees. FF is not unlike some anti-islamic extremists who think that because there are terrorist who claim Islam, all Muslims are terrorists. That premise, is that Islam is inherently evil. FF premise is that liberalism or "leftism" is inherently evil.

Paint a broad brush that shows your hatred of those on the other side of the political aisle from you, FF. Don't talk to anyone with liberal views. Stay prejudiced. Lie about us. Puff yourself up as superior to other human beings with political views different from yours. One day, your side will be locking us all up. Right wing extremism leads to fascism.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well said!




Luissa I went to occupy boston 2 times now.....they are the ones who have shaped my opinion of the movement's views.

I didn't intentionally go to an Occupy Albuquerque rally but got caught up in one when trying to get my Aunt to a doctor's appointment. Because they refused to allow cars to pass on the street, we were late to the appointment. I have also watched some of a livestream somebody set up. The group has changed its name to (un)Occupy Albuqeurque because some of the members objected to the term 'occupy' as too reminiscent of when the Spanish Conquistadors occupied this area.

The group did start out intentionally non violent and peaceful, but like most of the other Occupy groups dissolved into antisocial behavior as the days went by. It first turned violent when UNM refused to renew a permit for an Occupy group camped out in a small park on campus. The group was urinating, defecating, and generally trashing the park, destroying landscaping, damaging trees etc.. The ACLU intervened on behalf of the Occupy group and something was worked out. There have been other incidents of civil disobedience in destructive ways and some arrests have been made.

All this is to say that even when the organizers try to keep things civil and neighborly, leftism seems to promote antisocial and destructive, even violent, behavior in people that conservatism doesn't seem to promote.

I choose to go on purpose. I figured it was the least I could do if I am going to discuss them on the internet. I find it much easier to make valid claims when I actually went to an event instead of just commenting on what media outlets reported on in regards to it.

The boston one didn't give me any impression of violence. Yes they showed blatant disregard for some laws (public exposure/defecation, public intoxication, drug violations, private property rights) and sure they destroyed all the bushes and SOD we payed tax money to plant 3 months ago but they weren't violent.

Most of them are actually college students and many of them come from families that aren't all that bad off. Their complaints about corporate compensation and having to start off at the bottom when you first get a job somewhere just struck me as greedy and lazy. Its hard to shake that impression when you see a lot of the comments on the news about how they want to "eat the rich" or don't want to take jobs when someone sets up a job table because the starting pay is $12/hour or its not a company they prefer to work for. http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...ith-a-table-filled-with-job-applications.html <---we discussed that there.

And it is commendable to do some real research instead of just knee jerk response that fits a particular ideology.

But then you can read, comprehend, and focus in on what the topic actually is. And you are rarely ever guilty of inserting red herrings or straw men or intentionally misstating a thesis or trashing somebody because you don't like the subject and/or it makes you really uncomfortable.

Alas, leftism does not seem to promote clarity of focus either. Which is probably why those in the Occupy group cannot seem to articulate what they really want or what they want done. It is always some vague 'get corporations out of government' or 'eat the rich' or such as that, but they cannot put that into any kind of concept that anybody could deal with. But some sure don't mind violating the rights of others, trashing, damaging, destroying public and private property, and engaging in other antisocial behavior.

And some on the Left continue to criticize those of us who condemn that.