Not really. But if you contend that a declaration from Putin is such gospel that you deem resistance futile then you have to show he always follows through with his declarations.
He hasn't.
what is the lefts plan to end the war in Ukraine ?
- Thread starter yidnar
- Start date
He hasn't.
The vital importance of Ukrainian territory for the security of the Russian Federation is not just a product of Putin's declarations. It's a geographical fact. The unity of Russian people, including those who live in Ukraine(and even including those who call themselves Ukrainians) - is a linguo-cultural fact. America would fight a war (if necessary - nuclear war) to defend California and/or Texas (both against secessionists and foreign invaders). We don't need anybody's declarations to understand it. Whoever is in charge in Washington - Clinton, Obama, Trump, Vance, Psaki whoever else - he/she won't allow Shanghai Pact forces in the North America.
I'm inclined to think, that it's your racism that can't allow you to think about Russians as the human beings, with their own feelings and goals.
Well, my sympathy for your ambitions and goals are somewhat tempered by mass graves, abductions of children, and systemic rape. Not to mention the simple fact that you are invading a country, a country whose people have their own goals and ambitions YOU don't respect.
Tell me, didn't Putin also declare that the Baltic States are Russian? I suppose you should have those to, right? No matter what their goals or ambitions are.
The simple fact is, that when goals and ambitions of countries includes the taking of other countries, I have a problem. Not with the "race" of a country, but with their actions.
I'm a student of history and have a grandfather who was send to Germany as forced labor when another country deemed their "goals and ambitions" superior to anyone else's.
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I didn't said anything about "sympathy". I do say about "understanding". I do understand why Ukrainian nationalists can't live in peace with Russians. I do understand why Europeans making their suicidal crisades. I do understand why radical Muslim terrorists kill Jews and Christians.
That's why I do understand that Ukrainian nationalists won't sign any peace deal including equal rights for local Russians and Russian-speakers. I do understand that Americans won't leave Alaska or California (at leats without the threat of virtually total annihilation). But for some reason (likely because of your ignorance, low education level and racism) you don't want to understand that the Russians won't leave Ukraine.
Europe thinks 2 things.
First, since this is the third time Russia under Putin felt their goals and ambitions justified taking territory of other nations, there is no reason to believe Putin will stop with Ukraine. Since you didn't answer my question about the Baltic States, I think you realize this to.
Second, since this is territory that is both part of NATO and the EU, this would lead to an actual war. So, it's better to nip this in the butt now. Then wait until your dear leader decides he wants to gamble some more. That's the thing about the threat of force to achieve your goals. If the other side thinks that giving in won't fix the problem, they have very little reason to give in.
As for the Ukrainians wanting to live in peace with Russians. Since you've abducted tens of thousands of their children, raped and killed their woman and invaded their country. I'm guessing things are going to be tense for a bit. But make no mistake those are all your actions that caused that.
It's actually funny, you keep on throwing the word Nationalist around like an insult. While all the while you are justifying inflicting violence on other nations because what you feel are your nations rights.
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yidnar
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #307
because Russia isn't fighting a war thousands of miles away .. they are fighting a war in their immediate vicinity .. and Russia lost millions in WW2 and didnt stop fighting .. they are willing to do the same now .. that's why its critical to get a cease fire and peace agreement ! both sides will have to give up things they don't want to .. NK has already [you can bet with the CCPs approval] been fighting alongside Russia in Ukraine .. if Nato puts troops on the ground you can bet the Chicoms will get involved in a ground war ..
China, Russia pledge to strengthen military cooperation
BEIJING — The Chinese and Russian defence ministers pledged on Monday to deepen cooperation between their two countries' militaries as they met in Beijing.Moscow and Beijing have forged closer ties since Russia invaded neighbouring Ukraine in February 2022, an alliance that has drawn anxiety in...
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Yet they haven't broken through. Despite 3 years of fighting.because Russia isn't fighting a war thousands of miles away .. they are fighting a war in their immediate vicinity .. and Russia lost millions in WW2 and didnt stop fighting .. they are willing to do the same now .. that's why its critical to get a cease fire and peace agreement ! both sides will have to give up things they don't want to .. NK has already [you can bet with the CCPs approval] fighting alongside with Russia in Ukraine .. if Nato puts troops on the ground you can bet the Chicoms will get involved in a ground war ..
China, Russia pledge to strengthen military cooperation
BEIJING — The Chinese and Russian defence ministers pledged on Monday to deepen cooperation between their two countries' militaries as they met in Beijing.Moscow and Beijing have forged closer ties since Russia invaded neighbouring Ukraine in February 2022, an alliance that has drawn anxiety in...jordantimes.com
Inflation is up. There has been one tank column to Moscow. There is no reason to think that Russia can keep this up forever. This is not 1945. Modern war has gotten even more about economics.
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skye
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- Oct 19, 2012
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Didn't I? My fault. If Baltic states will continue oppression and discrimination of local Russians living in "their" states, they definitely will rebel. It's their God-given right and even duty to fight against oppressive tyrannical regimes. And if Baltic states, EU, NATO or anyone else will try to fight the Rebels, than, of course, Russian Federation won't have other option but to invade them.
Not that simple, but yes, its quite possible.
It mostly depends on what they believe their problems are. Its still possible to build the system of equal rights and equal safety.
Both Russians and Ukrainians know exactly who's action caused it. It's NATO. Survived Ukrainians will hate NATO (actually only those Ukrainians who hate NATO will survive).
"Ukrainain nationalist" is definitely an insult.
Talking about myself it's more about being "Imperialistic" rather than "nationalistic". It would be a bit crazy to be a nationalistic for an offspring of a Jewish father and Ukrainian mother. It's not about national discrimination. It's more about bringing safety, law, wealth and justice to people.
Imperialistic is just nationalistic but on the empire level. So you think people thinking that they have a right to their country is bad. On the other hand, someone who thinks they have a right to an empire isn't. As for your claim of safety and justice to people. It seems to me that's safety and justice for YOUR people. Everybody else will just have to surrender. That's the crux of what you are saying. YOU have rights. YOUR people have rights. Nobody else does. That's what imperialism comes down to.
As for blame. NATO didn't invade. Nor did Ukraine.
What always struck me as odd about the NATO argument is that NATO is a defensive alliance. Meaning that it poses no threat to anybody unless a country in it is DIRECTLY attacked. That's why the US for instance has been in plenty of wars without it.
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No. Other people might have rights basically in two cases: if they become our people and/or if their rights doesn't contradict our rights.
We are defending our rights. You are defending your rights. Join us, and we'll defend our common rights together. Or stand against us, and then we'll solve our contradictions in the old, but still most reliable way possible.
So, people have rights ONLY when they are your people. Or when their rights don't contradict yours.
Your rights on the other hand, can contradict the rights of other people, you still keep your rights. And if anybody disagrees its war.
I'm so glad we cleared that up. So, tell me again what reason anybody who wants to keep their rights have, to actually give you more power? That's just a recipe for further conflict, isn't it? Only now with an even stronger foe.
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Not necessarily "war". War is the last argument, when everything else doesn't work. It may be diplomatic discussion, may be sabotage, may be special military operation or something. There are a lot of ways to settle conflict, find a mutually acceptable solution or, if it is impossible, to eliminate the enemy.
May be because its not a zero-sum game, and we not necessarily should be foes. Say, getting rid of "strategic parasites" and building mutually acceptable safety system in Europe might become very useful for the USA in solving their inner problems or possible conflicts with neighbours.
Dude I'm European my wife is American. And it very much is a zero-sum game now isn't? If you are saying that the only rights you accept for other people are those that don't contradict yours. Because let me tell you contradicting interests are a fact of life in both personal and international relations. No diplomacy is possible if you don't recognize other people's interest as legitimate if they compete with yours. Something you flat out state.
I pretty doubt that there is a nation "European".
No, it isn't.
Yes, and there are a lot of ways to settle the contradictions and find a positive, mutually profitable solution.
The system of equal rights and equal safety might be mutually profitable for all of us. But if you prefer war - war might be even better for us.
No but there is a nation called Belgium. Which is a part of Europe
Not when the only option you allow for are solutions that don't contradict what you consider your rights regardless of if it violates the right of others. That's not "mutually profitable" that profits ONLY you.
What "equal rights" do you propose when you already said that my rights only are legitimate if they don't contradict yours, and yours can contradict mine and are always legitimate? Do you understand what equal actually means?
You do realize your GDP is the size of the Benelux countries, right? Not the EU, just 3 small pieces of it. It has taken you 3 years to get a small portion of the Ukraine and it has caused hundreds of thousands of deaths on your side.
What do you think happens when you attack a territory about 17 times the size of Ukraine with a GDP 10 times bigger than yours? You will have to use Nukes and hope that you can take out ours, after which the winner will rule over a wasteland.
Economy of the European Union - Wikipedia
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Is it a real nation or just French-German mixing zone?
Of course, no. Lets play the simple example. Russia sell to Belgium oil, Belgium sell to Russia flowers. Its win-win. It might be mutually profitable deal. And, say, attempt to take your flowers without giving you oil - will cause that there will be no more flowers. It's lose-lose.
Establishing the system of equal rights (and certain rules) might be mutually profitable.
Look, my cousin (who, his whole life have been identificating himself as a "pure-blood Jew") from Kherson (then - Ukraine) hated Putin's Russia from the depht of his heart. And after 2014 he left Ukraine, got Israel's citizenship and found there a good job (in a Chinese company). After his first collisions with Middle-East reality, he began identifying himself as a "Russian" stick together with other "Russians". He doesn't see much difference between Middle-East Jews and Arabs, and one of his half-joke mottos is "From the river to the sea - territoriya Rusi". Ten years of life in the Middle-East convinced him, that only Imperial laws might be useful for both sides.
If you establish equal rights and equal safety system, you remove the basis of contradictions.
Not a good example. Since nothing there contradicts your rights. I will give you a better example.
Latvia has decided to become a part of the EU and Europe. It's people want to be a part of the EU and NATO. Russia on the other hand considers it part of their territory. What "mutual profitable" solution do you suggest?
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