What is the ideal Liberal world?

[KMAN]

I am a conservative so I may have this all wrong but here is my serious understanding of what liberals want.

1.) Universal Healthcare - Does this include all healthcare? Or only certain things? If only certain things, who decides? If 2 gay lovers have anal sex and get AIDS, does that mean other Americans pay for their treatment?

2.) Abortions - Government should fund abortions, including partial birth abortions?

3.) Affirmative action? Qualifications don't matter only race, correct?

4.) Gay Marriage - Gays should have the same right to marry and have the same benefits as heterosexuals?

5.) Thinks the environment and animals are more or equally as important as humans.

6.) Believe that the theory of Global Warming is caused by humans. Let's just be fair though, there has been no proof yet.

7.) Anti-War - meaning all disagreements can be resolved by means of communication.

8.) Believe that the government should be more in control than the individual.

9.) Anti death penalty

10) Progressive tax - The more you make the more you should be taxed... I assume this is an effort to make everyone earn the same amount of money, yes?

Am I correct on these statments?

Just trying to understand more.....

 

[editec]

I don't know if I qualify to speak for liberals but I'll take a shot at it since I have little doubt mnay here assume I must be..

I am a conservative so I may have this all wrong but here is my serious understanding of what liberals want.

1.) Universal Healthcare - Does this include all healthcare? Or only certain things? If only certain things, who decides? If 2 gay lovers have anal sex and get AIDS, does that mean other Americans pay for their treatment?

Yes, I think that is probably correct. Liberals think universal health care is the solution

2.) Abortions - Government should fund abortions, including partial birth abortions?

Don't know about funding them, but allowing them is definitely on the agenda.

3.) Affirmative action? Qualifications don't matter only race, correct?

wrong

4.) Gay Marriage - Gays should have the same right to marry and have the same benefits as heterosexuals?

Yes

5.) Thinks the environment and animals are more or equally as important as humans.

Wrong

6.) Believe that the theory of Global Warming is caused by humans. Let's just be fair though, there has been no proof yet.

Wrong

7.) Anti-War - meaning all disagreements can be resolved by means of communication.

wrong

8.) Believe that the government should be more in control than the individual

.

Wrong

9.) Anti death penalty

Wrong

10) Progressive tax - The more you make the more you should be taxed...

Right

I assume this is an effort to make everyone earn the same amount of money, yes?

Wrong

Am I correct on these statments?

Some of them

Just trying to understand more.....

You apparently believe that all liberals are exactly on the same page on every issue.

Plus you tend to overstate (drastically) what they believe, and tend to credit them with the goofiest possible reason for believing it too.

 

[CharlestonChad]

All liberals don't think alike. All conservatives don't think alike. There are shades of gray. No KMAN, please stop trolling the USMB.

 

[Reality]

I am a conservative so I may have this all wrong but here is my serious understanding of what liberals want.

Well labels don't do much for me. Here are my thoughts.

1.) Universal Healthcare - Does this include all healthcare? Or only certain things? If only certain things, who decides? If 2 gay lovers have anal sex and get AIDS, does that mean other Americans pay for their treatment?

Setting aside your homophobia, I don't know what the appropriate way on health care really is. The issue does cut to the heart of my thoughts on progressivism, however. There are two issues that cut to the heart of reducing social welfare and programs: education and health care. Lifting up individuals starts with education. Sick kids don't learn. The ability to live and developing critical thinking abilities for the individual will, in part, allow communities to accumulate wealth and lift themselves out of poverty.

Secondly, health care costs are destroying American families. There is plenty of information on bankruptcy claims partially related to health care costs. People get sick and never recover financially. There is nothing beneficial about that situation. Everyone looses. Health care providers, individuals, insurance co's and tax coffers suffer.

2.) Abortions - Government should fund abortions, including partial birth abortions?

Thats pretty much propaganda fed to you by the "right to invade the body of Americans" click. I don't have any problem with no govt funding for abortion. I have a problem with dictating to Americans what can happen with their body. Abortion is distasteful. So are many other things. That doesn't give the govt the right to legislate behavior. It would be a much better scenario if abortions didn't happen, but not by government mandate. Educational programs have had the most dramatic effect on reducing abortions, not legislation.

3.) Affirmative action? Qualifications don't matter only race, correct?

Ok, now I'm getting annoyed. Based on the prose of your question, your only knowledge of Affirmative Action comes from the GOP propaganda machine and ignorance.

Affirmative Action is a system that requires ONLY those employers that benefit from federal funding to give preference to candidates and applicants who are members of protected classes (this includes women and the disabled, neither of which are races) ONLY WHEN those applicants meet the minimum qualifications for a position. A job description is formed prior to a search for someone to fill that role is launched, thus the minimum qualifications are determined ahead of time.

Before you decide to be against something you should try to learn something about the topic.

4.) Gay Marriage - Gays should have the same right to marry and have the same benefits as heterosexuals?

What churches do is there own private business. The government has no right to deny tax benefits to two people who wish to file a marriage license.

5.) Thinks the environment and animals are more or equally as important as humans.

No, I just think the environment is important at all and don't have the audacity to think that a living thing, the earth, is indestructible. Nor do I think a creationist view contains any biblical evidence that the good Lord created an indestructible environment or is protecting the ecological system He created from harm.

6.) Believe that the theory of Global Warming is caused by humans. Let's just be fair though, there has been no proof yet.

"Proof" doesn't happen in science. Take any introductory level college science class. Scientists gather evidence to develop theories based on that evidence. The composition of water, H2O, is technically just a theory. Should the ability to detect another chemical science is not aware of at this point is developed, it is possible science will develop an alternate theory of water's composition. This is true of everything science has taught us.

As far as global warming, here is the scenario in its most basic form. The greenhouse effect theory has been rather settled theory in the scientific community since late in the 19th century. Quite simply, there is stuff that rises into the atmosphere the prevents the rays of the sun reflecting off of earth from escaping earth's atmosphere. One of those things is carbon. Carbon in the atmosphere is measurable and is at it's highest level ever and continues to rise. The most accepted theory as to why is human activity, esp the use of fossil fuels. I'm far from educated enough scientifically to really be able to determine if global temperature rise is actually happening, but its certainly feasible. It just seems like smart policy to reduce those emissions in an effort not to piss the planet off. Combine that with the geo-political situation regarding oil, and it seems like incredibly coherent policy.

7.) Anti-War - meaning all disagreements can be resolved by means of communication.

This is a rather new GOP talking point that holds less water than a paper towel. George H.W. Bush's Secretary of State, James Baker, traveled to Syria 13 times on purely diplomatic missions. The talks that Clinton facilitated between Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Syria over the Golan were at least in part a result of Baker's diplomacy. Without the ground work laid by Baker, Clinton would have been doing that diplomatic work that made those talks possible, not facilitating the talks.

Is H.W. and James Baker terrorist sympathizers? Of course not, they are statesmen, a concept the current adminstration is almost alone in not understanding.

8.) Believe that the government should be more in control than the individual.

Another logical fallacy. Govt is in the singularly unique position of being able to craft national policy that benefits the individual (as previously mentioned, education is in my view the most important area). In the United States we do not have a pure capitalistic system. We also do not have a socialist system. We have what non-propagandized people call a mixed economy. The balance we strike between collectivism and capitalism is something that we should continue to debate on an ongoing basis. Going two feet into either system would be ill advised.

9.) Anti death penalty

If the govt is to execute just one innocent person, that is a murder that every American citizen is guilty of. I refuse to be a murderer. It's very unlikely this has not already happened. If you'd like more information on people wrongfully convicted of horrible crimes, see:

The Innocence Project - Home

For instance, there is a rather disturbing case in Alabama currently.

The Innocence Project - News and Information: Innocence Blog: Still no DNA test for Alabama man; July 31 execution date set

Furthermore, we have a judicial system that rewards police officers and district attorney's for convictions. When it is in the personal interest of people hired by the government to bring home convictions, regardless of justice, its a bad idea to kill people based on that.

10) Progressive tax - The more you make the more you should be taxed... I assume this is an effort to make everyone earn the same amount of money, yes?

I personally advocate a consumption tax and a dramatic cut in the IRS. Take the same tax rate from every person at the cash register. Its transparent, its equal, its cost effective and everyone pays.

Am I correct on these statments?

No, but your political party is sure happy you think you are.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Most Liberals do in fact argue the Government should pay for abortions for those that can not afford their own. The argument being that to deny those poor the money is to deny them the right to an abortion.

Environment and animal rights are fringe things. Though the press is strongly behind making global warming into a big bogue man.

A lot of Liberals may be for Gay marriage BUT a lot of Democrats are against it.

And yes Liberals think Affirmative action designed just to give those poor oppressed minorities more than equal treatment is a good thing. Why? Because us whiteys are all racist and do everything we can to keep those non whites down. It is called white Guilt and liberals are FULL of it.

As for Government, YES Liberals want more Government, now of course they will tell you it is just for your own good. They just want to take care of us retards and hicks. Anyone not one of them, in other words. Of course you will find that such new laws and restrictions somehow will exempt the Liberal leaders, after all they deserve something for all that hard work taking care of us.

Liberals are only against any war they did not start. And they have started a few.

Not completely sure the death penalty is a liberal thing. Kind of doubt it.

And yes taxing the shit out of anyone with money is the Liberal thing, of course they will ensure loopholes they can use exist to protect their fortunes.

 

[KMAN]

I am seriously trying to understand your point of view... Not trying to cause any fights.

Thanks.


1.) Where in the constitution does it say all Americans have a right to healthcare... and this is coming from someone who has a kidney disease but I don't expect you to pay for it.

2.)Isn't an abortion the same as killing someone? You are against killing an innocent man with the death penalty but you are all for killing an innocent baby?

3.) So if a federally funded company has more women then men, they must hire a man for the position? Even if both man and woman candidates meet the minimum requirements and the women has a much better resume?

4.) Let's just eliminate the government from the marriage business altogether... Wouldn't that be easier?

5.) Ok. I don't believe in harming the environment either but (maybe because I am a Christian) I believe in doing what it takes to take care of my family first, then worry about other things next.

6.) If the theory is so well known why do over 31000 scientists disagree with this theory? You do know that plants benefit from CO2 right? And you do know that the average Carbon dioxide content in the air is between 0.03% (300 ppm) and 0.06% (600 ppm). That 600 CO2 particles out of a million! How in the world can this be the cause of global warming? With this theory wouldn't it get hotter every year?


7.) Ok, both parties agree that war is sometimes necessary... But why do Democrats want to cut the military?

8.) Wouldn't it be more beneficial to teach people to take care of themselves instead of relying on the government? When you increase programs to help people who don't want to help themselves doesn't that create more dependency on the government?

9) I agree I don't want to execute an innocent man, but if it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt that someone murdered 20 people and the person admits to it, what is wrong with ensuring he doesn't do it again when he gets out in 20 years?

10) Here, here, I'm with you on that... Personall I'd like to eliminate all income taxes.

11) I forgot one. it seems like Liberals are for letting people come to this country illegally. Is that true?

 

[Charles_Main]

You do know that Scientist all agree that water vapor is by far the single worst global warming contributing factor and CO2 is less than .04% of the atmosphere right.

So how long before Water Vapor is listed as a pollutant.

so much for all those new cars that only give out "harmless" water vapor.

 

[jillian]

I am a conservative so I may have this all wrong but here is my serious understanding of what liberals want.

1.) Universal Healthcare - Does this include all healthcare? Or only certain things? If only certain things, who decides? If 2 gay lovers have anal sex and get AIDS, does that mean other Americans pay for their treatment?

Ridiculous question. Do you think health care should be discriminatory?

2.) Abortions - Government should fund abortions, including partial birth abortions?

D&E? (There's no such medical term as partial birth abortion). And late term abortion is rare and should be decided between a woman and her doctor.

3.) Affirmative action? Qualifications don't matter only race, correct?

No. You're not.

4.) Gay Marriage - Gays should have the same right to marry and have the same benefits as heterosexuals?

That's two separate questions. They should have the same benefits as heterosexuals. Whether that should be by marriage or civil union is an open question.

5.) Thinks the environment and animals are more or equally as important as humans.

You are aware, aren't you, that there's a difference between looking at people's goals and concerns and exaggerting those goals and concerns.

So, no... you've misrepresented. However, the environment and animals are something that should be taken into reasonable consideration, don't you think? Or you just think you should be able to dump toxic waste into my drinking water?

6.) Believe that the theory of Global Warming is caused by humans. Let's just be fair though, there has been no proof yet.

Again, that's absurd. All reasonable science agrees that we are undergoing climate change. Whether we "cause" or exacerbate the problem is really beside the point. It's idiocy to look at the problem and exclaim "d'uh...."

7.) Anti-War - meaning all disagreements can be resolved by means of communication.

Again, you're making stuff up. In case it's escaped you, most of the country was all for going into Afghanistan. Maybe the left is just opposed to stupid wars of choice.

8.) Believe that the government should be more in control than the individual.

If you persist in making stuff up, there's really no point to talking to you. However, what I will say is there are times government action is appropriate (like when companies pollute the environment or engage in price gouging) and times it shouldn't (like over my personal decisions regarding my body). See how that works?

9.) Anti death penalty

If you were smart, you'd understand that there are absolutely things people should die for. But far too many people have been placed on death row and later had DNA evidence prove that the wrong person was sentenced to death. That's a problem. (Try googling the Innocence Project), as is the disparity in application based on race.

10) Progressive tax - The more you make the more you should be taxed... I assume this is an effort to make everyone earn the same amount of money, yes?

Another silly mischaracterization...so much so, that it isn't worth a response.

Am I correct on these statments?

Just trying to understand more.....

Are you? Or are you trolling?

Just trying to understand more.

 

[AllieBaba]

Let's hear it for Ingrid Betancourt, who was kidnapped while trying to "negotiate" with FARC and held hostage for years.

Liberals should keep her picture in front of them and give her a ring whenever they are thinking about "negotiating" with terrorists. I watched her Larry King interview and the thing she said that stood out was that she couldn't conceive of actually being taken and/or hurt.

It's called insular elitism. I'll bet she feels a little different about negotiating with terrorists today.

 

[KMAN]

I am a conservative so I may have this all wrong but here is my serious understanding of what liberals want.



Ridiculous question. Do you think health care should be discriminatory?



D&E? (There's no such medical term as partial birth abortion). And late term abortion is rare and should be decided between a woman and her doctor.



No. You're not.



That's two separate questions. They should have the same benefits as heterosexuals. Whether that should be by marriage or civil union is an open question.



You are aware, aren't you, that there's a difference between looking at people's goals and concerns and exaggerting those goals and concerns.

So, no... you've misrepresented. However, the environment and animals are something that should be taken into reasonable consideration, don't you think? Or you just think you should be able to dump toxic waste into my drinking water?



Again, that's absurd. All reasonable science agrees that we are undergoing climate change. Whether we "cause" or exacerbate the problem is really beside the point. It's idiocy to look at the problem and exclaim "d'uh...."



Again, you're making stuff up. In case it's escaped you, most of the country was all for going into Afghanistan. Maybe the left is just opposed to stupid wars of choice.



If you persist in making stuff up, there's really no point to talking to you. However, what I will say is there are times government action is appropriate (like when companies pollute the environment or engage in price gouging) and times it shouldn't (like over my personal decisions regarding my body). See how that works?



If you were smart, you'd understand that there are absolutely things people should die for. But far too many people have been placed on death row and later had DNA evidence prove that the wrong person was sentenced to death. That's a problem. (Try googling the Innocence Project), as is the disparity in application based on race.



Another silly mischaracterization...so much so, that it isn't worth a response.



Are you? Or are you trolling?

Just trying to understand more.

Jillian - Come on now... I'm trying to have a serious discussion and you resond...stupid question... ridiculous.... this isn't worth a response... or your making stuff up...

Just FYI - I believe the majority of democrats supported the Iraq war, and the argument about global warming is that humans are causing it... by the way what is reasonable science when you have 31000 scientists claiming it's false?

This is why us conservatives are confused by liberals because for the most part they can't explain why they feel a certain way... they just do...

 

[jillian]

Actually, I answered most of your inquiries if you actually read my response. It's that some of what you wrote was such stereotypes of what you *think* people on the left believe that I pointed it out to you. I was actually fairly specific in most instances.

If you believe the majority of democrats supported the Iraq War, that kind of shows that your initial hypothesis about "liberals" being opposed to all wars wasn't correct. However, I don't believe the majority of Dems supported Iraq. I KNOW we supported Afghanistan. It was a pity the admin dropped the ball on that one.

If you're confused, it's because instead of dealing in nuances, you're dealing in generalizations and ignoring the fact that there's no homogeneous view of the world among Democrats, so you confuse the terms "liberal" and "democrat" and "progressive". You also ignore that someone can be to the left on certain issues and to the right on others.

 

[Ravi]

The only two liberal beliefs on your list are the one about gays and that progressive tax is the best way to go.

The one about gays is also pretty much the belief of conservatives as well.

The problem here is you are either very uninformed or a troll.

 

[KMAN]

Actually, I answered most of your inquiries if you actually read my response. It's that some of what you wrote was such stereotypes of what you *think* people on the left believe that I pointed it out to you. I was actually fairly specific in most instances.

If you believe the majority of democrats supported the Iraq War, that kind of shows that your initial hypothesis about "liberals" being opposed to all wars wasn't correct. However, I don't believe the majority of Dems supported Iraq. I KNOW we supported Afghanistan. It was a pity the admin dropped the ball on that one.

If you're confused, it's because instead of dealing in nuances, you're dealing in generalizations and ignoring the fact that there's no homogeneous view of the world among Democrats, so you confuse the terms "liberal" and "democrat" and "progressive". You also ignore that someone can be to the left on certain issues and to the right on others.

You are correct. This thread is for liberals not Democrats.

You could've looked this up for yourself but here is the link to the Iraq vote...

U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

 

[KMAN]

Why when trying to have legit conversation all I hear is how uninformed I am instead of providing statements supporting your beliefs... not all of you do this but many liberals do.... if you don't want to participate don't... it's that easy. The government isn't forcing you to answer, at least not yet.

 

[Reality]

Let's hear it for Ingrid Betancourt, who was kidnapped while trying to "negotiate" with FARC and held hostage for years.

Liberals should keep her picture in front of them and give her a ring whenever they are thinking about "negotiating" with terrorists. I watched her Larry King interview and the thing she said that stood out was that she couldn't conceive of actually being taken and/or hurt.

It's called insular elitism. I'll bet she feels a little different about negotiating with terrorists today.

Yea, like Gandhi negotiating with the Brits or FLN calling for negotiations with the French (I'm sure you don't know who that is).

 

[Reality]

Why when trying to have legit conversation all I hear is how uninformed I am instead of providing statements supporting your beliefs... not all of you do this but many liberals do.... if you don't want to participate don't... it's that easy. The government isn't forcing you to answer, at least not yet.

No less than 3 people responded to your list point by point. Your response was to further go on a liberal bashing rant. Pointless.

 

[Jeepers]

Let's hear it for Ingrid Betancourt, who was kidnapped while trying to "negotiate" with FARC and held hostage for years.

Liberals should keep her picture in front of them and give her a ring whenever they are thinking about "negotiating" with terrorists. I watched her Larry King interview and the thing she said that stood out was that she couldn't conceive of actually being taken and/or hurt.

It's called insular elitism. I'll bet she feels a little different about negotiating with terrorists today.

Should I replace my pictures of kim jong il and Moamar Kaddafi?

 

[Mr. Right]

The supreme gender neutral wisdom sharer will declare all Anglo Saxon males will be enslaved in order to make up for the oppressive value based Christian lineage that so hindered mother nature and all her glory.

Christianity will be outlawed.

Abortions will be on demand and forced on anyone over 28. Children will be called Parasitic units.

Global Warming will be done away with because it was the vehicle used to acquire power.

All forms of transportation and commerce will be illegal. Because they pollute.

Animals will have the same rights you once had.

I could go on for a long time.

Plants will be assigned lawyers and be able to appeal the decision to cut them down.

Flatulence will be considered a "Greenhouse Gas and you will be fined for it.

Water vapor will also be deemed dangerous and the government will take steps to see to it steam is outlawed.

The use of butter will be illegal because milk fat and all milk products are dangerous and cause heart disease.

A new 99.9% tax rate will ensure you never be able to have any freedom to choose anything other than Government cheese for dinner.

The word Black will be deemed offensive to some and replaced with the words "full of color".

all languages will be spoken accept English because it will be deemed oppressive and insensitive.

Football will be replaced by Soccer and they wont keep score.

Everyone will wear a rainbow uniform.

NASCAR will mean tricycle races.

The consumption of meat of any kind will be outlawed. It will carry a death penalty that will not be carried out. You will be paroled after "time served or 8 hours.

The act of shaving ones arm pits if female will be looked at as not manly enough for a woman.

Sexual harassment will include dating.

 

[CharlestonChad]

Should I replace my pictures of kim jong il and Moamar Kaddafi?

thread over

 

[midcan5]

UHC should be a part of any modern progressive society, anyone asked would certainly agree regardless of political philosophy, it just makes sense as it makes living more secure, free, and helps small business be more innovative.

Abortion is a private concern of women, it is not the concern of government or religion, support education and prevention and it will be the non issue it should be. And anyone who remembers when only the rich could get abortions while the others suffered or died should not wish for a return to our primitive past.

Gays live under the same Constitution and should have the same rights as others in our society.

If the environment dies we die, if the animals die we die, seems too easy.

If you saw the pollution caused by factories and the pollution of our streams you see the damage mankind can do on a small scale. Another issue that should be part of how live, do the best you can to keep mother earth clean. She's a pretty good mother.

War is the most serious endeavor man can enter into, it should not be entered into over fear or speculation.

Government cannot control people, witness the war on drugs, all government can do is help provide an environment that is safe for people and helps to provide for their needs.

Death penalty is one I have no answer for as even as a liberal I would kill any person who hurt my family. I'm liberal not Amish, I'll skip that one.

The earthed belongs to everyone and birth and or connections do not grant you the right to more of it. So yes, tax them, they don't need 5 million dollar cars, two or three should suffice.



"Ideally citizens are to think of themselves as if they were legislators and ask themselves what statutes, supported by what reasons satisfying the criterion of reciprocity, they would think is most reasonable to enact." John Rawls