What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Yet you just said Israel should cease to be a Jewish state.

Correct. It should just be a state.

If you think that is "anti semitic", then you are a fool.

 

[Shusha]

RE: What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote
⁜→ Shusha, P F Tinmore, et al,

RoccoR and P F Tinmore,

If you have anything at all which proves “Palestinian Territory” had some other legal meaning than a geographical descriptor prior to 1948, I’d kindly suggest you bring it to the thread.

Tinmore has LONG argued that the State of Palestine came into existence in 1924, in spite of failing to meet the criteria of Statehood right up to the present day.

I’m surprised you are agreeing with Tinmore here Rocco. Perhaps you can state your reasoning.

(DOCUMENTATION)

The short answer:

◈ Palestine as a Legal Entity 1929 - 1948
• MEMORANDUM “A” LEGAL MEANING OF THE “TERMINATION OF THE MANDATE” •

◈ Memorandum: UN Under-Secretary General - Legal Affairs 11 December 2012
• Issues Relating to the General Assembly Resolution 67/19 on the Status of Palestine in the UN •


Most Respectfully,
R

Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.

Ah, yes. I've seen that before, though it comes up rarely. I should not have used the term "legal entity".

But I think my original question still stands. What meaning does it have as a legal entity, since it can not act in any legal capacity and has no sovereign? It is a territorial designation, the responsibility for which passed from the British Mandate to the UN Commission.

Are you arguing indeed that it is "territory held pending the emergence of local self-government"?

 

[Shusha]

Slums: Most countries have tiers of income distribution, some of which lead to lower-income housing. Israel is no different. Even America has lower-income and welfare housing. Just because Israel lower-income and welfare housing can be noticed - has no being on the issue of herding.

Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights.

NO, buddy, Equal Voting rights would be all 6 Million Arabs being able to vote.

In other words, you want Israel to apply sovereignty to the entire territory -- a one-state solution: Israel.

BUT you want this so Israel will be eliminated.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

BUT you want this so Israel will be eliminated.

How would that "eliminate" Israel?

 

[Shusha]

Interesting twist here. Britain released its Mandate over Palestine to the United Nations Commission. However the UN did not accept that transfer. The territory and sovereignty were left to the Palestinians. So the Palestinians declared independence on their own territory inside their own international borders.

The Arab Palestinians declared independence and the Jewish Palestinians declared independence. But only one of them became self-governing. and a State.

 

[Shusha]

BUT you want this so Israel will be eliminated.

How would that "eliminate" Israel?

Well, the assumption is that Arabs would out number and therefore out vote Jews and in short order would be just another Arab Islamic State, with a minority of resident Jews and all the inherent issues of discrimination and antisemitism.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

BUT you want this so Israel will be eliminated.

How would that "eliminate" Israel?

Well, the assumption is that Arabs would out number and therefore out vote Jews and in short order would be just another Arab Islamic State, with a minority of resident Jews and all the inherent issues of discrimination and antisemitism.

How would that work? There are more Jews in Israel than total people in the Palestinian territories combined, I thought.

 

[Shusha]

Yet you just said Israel should cease to be a Jewish state.

Correct. It should just be a state.

If you think that is "anti semitic", then you are a fool.

Do you oppose the statehood of Catalonia? Tibet? Quebec? Scotland? Of Korea? Pakistan? Bosnia? Serbia? Jordan?

Why or why not?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Yet you just said Israel should cease to be a Jewish state.

Correct. It should just be a state.

If you think that is "anti semitic", then you are a fool.

Do you oppose the statehood of Catalonia? Tibet? Quebec? Scotland? Of Korea? Pakistan? Bosnia? Serbia? Jordan?

Why or why not?

Irrelevant. I don't oppose the statehood of Israel.

 

[Shusha]

BUT you want this so Israel will be eliminated.

How would that "eliminate" Israel?

Well, the assumption is that Arabs would out number and therefore out vote Jews and in short order would be just another Arab Islamic State, with a minority of resident Jews and all the inherent issues of discrimination and antisemitism.

How would that work? There are more Jews in Israel than total people in the Palestinian territories combined, I thought.

Not everyone does think it will work that way. (see: Caroline Glick's One State Solution). But most people subscribe to the idea that the Arab population will overrun the Jewish one in numbers. Especially when the "right of return" (meaning for Arabs, not for Jews) is enacted.

But both you and JoeB seem to be arguing for the same thing -- the elimination of the Jewish character of the state.

 

[Shusha]

Yet you just said Israel should cease to be a Jewish state.

Correct. It should just be a state.

If you think that is "anti semitic", then you are a fool.

Do you oppose the statehood of Catalonia? Tibet? Quebec? Scotland? Of Korea? Pakistan? Bosnia? Serbia? Jordan?

Why or why not?

Irrelevant. I don't oppose the statehood of Israel.

Just the Jewish character of the statehood of Israel. You support Israel's statehood as long as it has no Jewish character.

So, would you insist that if Catalonia gained independent Statehood, that is must have no Catalan character? Or if Scotland gained independence that it must have no Scottish character?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

But most people subscribe to the idea that the Arab population will overrun the Jewish one in numbers.

And, like them, I am inviting you to argue why this is, when there are more Jews just in Israel than there are all people combined in the Palestinian territories.

I am arguing that Israel should become a truly secular state with no deference to any religion or its followers. If that means losing the "jewish character" to you, then you are correct.

 

[Shusha]

But most people subscribe to the idea that the Arab population will overrun the Jewish one in numbers.

And, like them, I am inviting you to argue why this is, when there are more Jews just in Israel than there are all people combined in the Palestinian territories.

I am arguing that Israel should become a truly secular state with no deference to any religion or its followers. If that means losing the "jewish character" to you, then you are correct.

First, I'd ask why you "demand" that Israel -- of all the states in the world which are not "truly secular" -- be compelled to be so?

Then, I'd ask what "deference to religion" means here.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

First, I'd ask why you "demand" that Israel -- of all the states in the world which are not "truly secular" -- be compelled to be so?

I would ask that of every state. But since this is a more immediate and worse problem, and also the thread topic, I speak of Israel. You're fishing hard, my friend. You are wasting your time.

Now...your argument I requested? Please explain how a minority of Muslims will turn Israel into an Arab Muslim state.

 

[Shusha]

First, I'd ask why you "demand" that Israel -- of all the states in the world which are not "truly secular" -- be compelled to be so?

I would ask that of every state. But since this is a more immediate and worse problem, and also the thread topic, I speak of Israel. You're fishing hard, my friend. You are wasting your time.

Now...your argument I requested? Please explain how a minority of Muslims will turn Israel into an Arab Muslim state.

Totally fair. If you demand that every state be secular and apply that equally, I can't argue.

Now, "deference to religion"? What does that mean?

I already answered your question. It won't be a minority of Arabs, it will be a majority of Arabs -- 6 million Jews + 8 million Arabs, plus the expected larger Arab population growth, plus the "right of return" for Arabs (but not Jews).

 

[RoccoR]

RE: What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Damn it! The Memo does not say that at all. And your description here is nowhere near the reality.

Interesting twist here. Britain released its Mandate over Palestine to the United Nations Commission. However, the UN did not accept that transfer. The territory and sovereignty were left to the Palestinians. So the Palestinians declared independence on their own territory inside their own international borders.

I would like to draw your attention to:

◈ CableGram DTD 15 MAY 1948 Addressed to the UN Secretary-General Press Release S/745 15 May 1948 Department of Public Information • Press and Publications Bureau
(Note: This was the essentially a notice of First Actor and Aggression)

"On the occasion of the intervention of Arab States in Palestine to restore law and order and to prevent disturbances prevailing in Palestine from spreading into their territories and to check further bloodshed, I have the honour to request your excellency to bring following statement before General Assembly and Security Council."​

◈ Press Release PAL/169 17 May 1948 Department of Public Information • Press and Publications Bureau

During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."​

◈ Press Release PAL/170 17 May 1948 Department of Public Information • Press and Publications Bureau

"The High Commissioner confirms that he had appointed Mr. Evans as Municipal Commissioner for Jerusalem before his departure under the Jerusalem Municipal Government Order of 1948 and he also appointed Mr. Azcarate as Mr. Evans' deputy until his arrival."​

Your response was intentional disinformation, in an attempt to deceive the members of the Discussion Group.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I already answered your question. It won't be a minority of Arabs, it will be a majority of Arabs -- 6 million Jews + 8 million Arabs, plus the expected larger Arab population growth, plus the "right of return" for Arabs (but not Jews).

Better check those numbers.

6.7 million Jews in Israel.

1.7 million Muslims in Israel

4.7 million people total in the Palestinian territories, and not all are muslims

So your answer was not a good one. Would you like to recant or modify it?

 

[Shusha]

I already answered your question. It won't be a minority of Arabs, it will be a majority of Arabs -- 6 million Jews + 8 million Arabs, plus the expected larger Arab population growth, plus the "right of return" for Arabs (but not Jews).

Better check those numbers.

6.7 million Jews in Israel.

1.7 million Muslims in Israel

4.7 million people total in the Palestinian territories, and not all are muslims

So your answer was not a good one. Would you like to recant or modify it?

Would you like to read my answers again?

(Yes, I over-estimated the number of Arabs in Gaza and the WB, my apologies).


Now, "deference to religion"? Seems hypocritical of you to demand I answer and then ignore my requests.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Would you like to read my answers again?

No, I would like you to recant your answer and present a new one that is factual. Or you can recant your claim altogether, as not only have you not supported it, it seems to be contrary to the evidence.

No, you are not going to sidestep this with your bait and switch. One thing at a time.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I already answered your question. It won't be a minority of Arabs, it will be a majority of Arabs -- 6 million Jews + 8 million Arabs, plus the expected larger Arab population growth, plus the "right of return" for Arabs (but not Jews).

Better check those numbers.

6.7 million Jews in Israel.

1.7 million Muslims in Israel

4.7 million people total in the Palestinian territories, and not all are muslims

So your answer was not a good one. Would you like to recant or modify it?

So it's about even, more or less, with the Jews having a slight majority.

So there are 4.7 million ppl in the "territories." The Christian Arabs mainly identify as Palestinians, but there aren't much of them anymore, since they have fled from the Muslims, like in most Middle Eastern countries. Do the 4.7 million include the Jewish "settlers?"