What Happened to Church?

[Taz]

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

Again, there is no pressure at our church. Why can't you ever let go of that? You're so absolutely certain there is pressure that you bring it up time and time again. I'm telling you there is none.

So you pretend to give. Cool.

This is what happens when you're more determined to troll than to discuss. You end up saying patently absurd things, like that. Obviously, we give, or the bills wouldn't be paid, we couldn't support our missionaries, community outreach wouldn't happen, etc. If you're not going to be serious, go away.

You're not serious about this thread or else you'd tell me what you give.

 

[Taz]

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

Why do you care what other people give when they do it anonymously?

And I quote myself "I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go".

 

[Taz]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

God should be effortless.

 

[bodecea]

How much did they hit you up for that?

A week of penitence.

All churches are not Catholic.

Just be glad they don't use the whip to encourage..

You have some seriously odd notions about what churches are, or even were. Maybe try attending one sometime, rather than believing propaganda.

And maybe try not rushing to every thread on religion to try to derail it so that no one can ever discuss it seriously.

Two hour services three times a week? Wow!

 

[Cecilie1200]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

God should be effortless.

Why?

 

[Taz]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

God should be effortless.

Why?

Why not? Why all the hardship?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

God should be effortless.

Why?

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

 

[Taz]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

God should be effortless.

Why?

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

 

[ding]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

God should be effortless.

Why?

Why not? Why all the hardship?

You mean you don't see all the good? Why don't you ask why all the good?

 

[Likkmee]

How much did they hit you up for that?

A week of penitence.

All churches are not Catholic.

Only the Roman Satanic Corporation of Idol Worship. Hail Mary

 

[ding]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

God should be effortless.

Why?

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

God should be effortless.

Why?

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

The fact that something sounds good to YOU is not any sort of recommendation. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[Cecilie1200]

How much did they hit you up for that?

A week of penitence.

All churches are not Catholic.

Only the Roman Satanic Corporation of Idol Worship. Hail Mary

You know how I told Taz that this thread wasn't about his hatred of Christians? It's also not about your hatred of Catholics. This discussion does not in any way require your desperate bid for attention.

Speak to the topic, or go form your own thread.

 

[Cecilie1200]

God should be effortless.

Why?

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty certain that mindset is what has turned church into the drive-through, fast-food version of itself that it is in so many places now.

 

[Taz]

God should be effortless.

Why?

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

 

[ding]

Why?

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

Not at all. Your idea of God is illogical. Besides I can't imagine a God that could possibly be nicer than one who was born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer an agonizing death for us. Your problem is that you lack complete knowledge in your understanding of God.

 

[hadit]

Why?

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

It does nothing to us except reinforce what has happened to the church. Instead of pushing back against that false teaching, the church has absorbed the desire for an easy religion that doesn't demand anything from the person and tried to become what people want.

Obviously, it's a false teaching and if that's all you want, go find a social group to feel good in that caters to you, but it's not Christianity.

 

[ding]

Why not? Why all the hardship?

Is it really so alien a concept to you that the more worth having something is, the more it is worth working for and investing yourself in?

Well, you're a leftist, so it probably IS alien to you to think of working for something, rather than expecting it to be handed to you.

Naw, god should be effortless and free, sounds like a better idea.

It sounds to me that you want "God Lite." All of the good and none of the less pleasant consequences. You want a God that gives the you emotional comfort of believing in God and none of that messy baggage of being virtuous. You want a tame God. You want a God you can switch on and off when it suits you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Your "God Lite" is the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has ever seen.

My idea of god is nicer than your god, does that piss you off?

It does nothing to us except reinforce what has happened to the church. Instead of pushing back against that false teaching, the church has absorbed the desire for an easy religion that doesn't demand anything from the person and tried to become what people want.

Obviously, it's a false teaching and if that's all you want, go find a social group to feel good in that caters to you, but it's not Christianity.

C.S. Lewis explains....

We have two bits of evidence about the Somebody. One is the universe He has made. If we used that as our only clue, then I think we should have to conclude that He was a great artist (for the universe is a very beautiful place), but also that He is quite merciless and no friend to man (for the universe is a very dangerous and terrifying place). The other bit of evidence is that Moral Law which He has put into our minds. And this is a better bit of evidence than the other, because it is inside information. You find out more about God from the Moral Law than from the universe in general just as you find out more about a man by listening to his conversation than by looking at a house he has built. Now, from this second bit of evidence we conclude that the Being behind the universe is intensely interested in right conduct — in fair play, unselfishness, courage, good faith, honesty and truthfulness. In that sense we should agree with the account given by Christianity and some other religions, that God is "good." But do not let us go too fast here. The Moral Law does not give us any grounds for thinking that God is "good" in the sense of being indulgent, or soft, or sympathetic. There is nothing indulgent about the Moral Law. It is as hard as nails. It tells you to do the straight thing and it does not seem to care how painful, or dangerous, or difficult it is to do. If God is like the Moral Law, then He is not soft. It is no use, at this stage, saying that what you mean by a "good" God is a God who can forgive. You are going too quickly. Only a Person can forgive. And we have not yet got as far as a personal God — only as far as a power, behind the Moral Law, and more like a mind than it is like anything else. But it may still be very unlike a Person. If it is pure impersonal mind, there may be no tense in asking it to make allowances for you or let you off, just as there is no sense in asking the multiplication table to let you off when you do your sums wrong. You are bound to get the wrong answer. And it is no use either saying that if there is a God of that sort — an impersonal absolute goodness — then you do not like Him and are not going to bother about Him. For the trouble is that one part of you is on His side and really agrees with His disapproval of human greed and trickery and exploitation. You may want Him to make an exception in your own case, to let you off this one time; but you know at bottom that unless the power behind the world really and unalterably detests that sort of behaviour, then He cannot be good. On the other hand, we know that if there does exist an absolute goodness it must hate most of what we do. That is the terrible fix we are in. If the universe is not governed by an absolute goodness, then all our efforts are in the long run hopeless. But if it is, then we are making ourselves enemies to that goodness every day, and are not in the least likely to do any better tomorrow, and so our case is hopeless again. We cannot do without it. and we cannot do with it. God is the only comfort, He is also the supreme terror: the thing we most need and the thing we most want to hide from. He is our only possible — ally, and we have made ourselves His enemies. Some people talk as if meeting the gaze of absolute goodness would be fun. They need to think again. They are still only playing with religion. Goodness is either the great safety or the great danger — according to the way you react to it. And we have reacted the wrong way. Now my third point. When I chose to get to my real subject in this roundabout way, I was not trying to play any kind of trick on you. I had a different reason. My reason was that Christianity simply does not make sense until you have faced the sort of facts I have been describing. Christianity tells people to repent and promises them forgiveness. It therefore has nothing (as far as I know) to say to people who do not know they have done anything to repent of and who do not feel that they need any forgiveness. It is after you have realised that there is a real Moral Law, and a Power behind the law, and that you have broken that law and put yourself wrong with that Power — it is after all this, and not a moment sooner, that Christianity begins to talk. When you know you are sick, you will listen, to. the doctor. When you have realised that our position is nearly desperate you will begin to understand what the Christians are talking about. They offer an explanation of how we got into our present state of both hating goodness and loving it. They offer an explanation of how God can be this impersonal mind at the back of the Moral Law and yet also a Person. They tell you how the demands of this law, which you and I cannot meet, have been met on our behalf, how God Himself becomes a man to save man from the disapproval of God. It is an old story and if you want to go into it you will no doubt consult people who have more authority to talk about it than I have. All I am doing is to ask people to face the facts — to understand the questions which Christianity claims to answer. And they are very terrifying facts. I wish it was possible to say something more agreeable. But I must say what I think true. Of course, I quite agree that the Christian religion is, in the long run, a thing of unspeakable comfort. But it does not begin in comfort; it begins in the dismay I have been describing, and it is no use at all trying to go on to that comfort without first going through that dismay. In religion, as in war and everything else, comfort is the one thing you cannot get by looking for it. If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end: if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth — only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair. Most of us have got over the prewar wishful thinking about international politics. It is time we did the same about religion.

 

[ding]

Taz wants soft soap and wishful thinking.

 

[tycho1572]

My first time attending any church service was when I about 16.
I attended several churches of different denominations for ~a year.

While most seemed nice and inviting, they went against what my parents taught me,

I was taught to accept and respect the differences people often have. I stopped going after thinking they were asking me to dismiss what I’ve been taught.