What do you all think of hydrogen fuel cells to power trucks and cars?

[MarathonMike]

I just started reading about Nikola and their use of hydrogen fuel cells in trucks. I've been interested in hydrogen as a fuel since the early 90s when I first saw a demo of it. Apparently hydrogen fuel cells were used in the Space Shuttle program for decades, something I didn't know. What do you think, is this a viable alternative to EVs? Apparently the range is 500+ miles between recharge.

Nikola Corporation Hydrogen in heavy-duty transport: EWG supports E.ON and Nikola in international H2 project -

E.ON and Nikola, together with partners and interested customers, are working to develop a package for hydrogen-powered heavy-duty transport. With expertise in energy, infrastructure and transportation, the Essen-based energy company and the U.S. hydrogen pioneer have set themselves the goal of...

nikolamotor.com

Hydrogen fuel cells are, IMO the way to go. Recharge is just like a gasoline powered car, except you use liquid H.

How much are cryogenic fuel tanks going to cost?
Any danger of explosion in a crash?
How often do you need to refuel?
Where do you get the hydrogen?

First two questions I dunno. But the range estimates are 500-700 miles between recharges. Electrolysis equipment apparently creates the hydrogen.

 

[westwall]

I just started reading about Nikola and their use of hydrogen fuel cells in trucks. I've been interested in hydrogen as a fuel since the early 90s when I first saw a demo of it. Apparently hydrogen fuel cells were used in the Space Shuttle program for decades, something I didn't know. What do you think, is this a viable alternative to EVs? Apparently the range is 500+ miles between recharge.

Nikola Corporation Hydrogen in heavy-duty transport: EWG supports E.ON and Nikola in international H2 project -

E.ON and Nikola, together with partners and interested customers, are working to develop a package for hydrogen-powered heavy-duty transport. With expertise in energy, infrastructure and transportation, the Essen-based energy company and the U.S. hydrogen pioneer have set themselves the goal of...

nikolamotor.com

Hydrogen fuel cells are, IMO the way to go. Recharge is just like a gasoline powered car, except you use liquid H.

How much are cryogenic fuel tanks going to cost?
Any danger of explosion in a crash?
How often do you need to refuel?
Where do you get the hydrogen?

Cost has already been lowered by half. After just a couple of years of research. No real danger with liquid H if it is stored properly. Same as a car. Hydrogen extraction is THE big cost now. Tech research will lower that.

Cost has already been lowered by half.

So now it's only 3 times the cost and half the energy?

No real danger with liquid H if it is stored properly.

And if it's not or it's in a crash?????

Hydrogen extraction is THE big cost now.

And the big energy waste. I don't see the attraction.
Is it fear of CO2?

Yes, and just think, gasoline used to be super expensive too. Amazing how technology lowers cost and increases efficiency. I am not saying we abandon fossil fuels, far from it, but the technology research is worth doing. Just like building a base on the Moon is likewise worth doing, even though the tech advances will become apparent long after i am dead.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I just started reading about Nikola and their use of hydrogen fuel cells in trucks. I've been interested in hydrogen as a fuel since the early 90s when I first saw a demo of it. Apparently hydrogen fuel cells were used in the Space Shuttle program for decades, something I didn't know. What do you think, is this a viable alternative to EVs? Apparently the range is 500+ miles between recharge.

Nikola Corporation Hydrogen in heavy-duty transport: EWG supports E.ON and Nikola in international H2 project -

E.ON and Nikola, together with partners and interested customers, are working to develop a package for hydrogen-powered heavy-duty transport. With expertise in energy, infrastructure and transportation, the Essen-based energy company and the U.S. hydrogen pioneer have set themselves the goal of...

nikolamotor.com

Hydrogen fuel cells are, IMO the way to go. Recharge is just like a gasoline powered car, except you use liquid H.

How much are cryogenic fuel tanks going to cost?
Any danger of explosion in a crash?
How often do you need to refuel?
Where do you get the hydrogen?

First two questions I dunno. But the range estimates are 500-700 miles between recharges. Electrolysis equipment apparently creates the hydrogen.

Electrolysis equipment apparently creates the hydrogen.

So you generate electricity (with partial efficiency) and use the electricity to electrolyze water (with partial efficiency) and then you have to cool and compress the hydrogen (more energy loss) store it in cryogenic tanks and then lose more energy in the auto's fuel cell?

And how is the refueling going to work? Like filling up the tank now?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I just started reading about Nikola and their use of hydrogen fuel cells in trucks. I've been interested in hydrogen as a fuel since the early 90s when I first saw a demo of it. Apparently hydrogen fuel cells were used in the Space Shuttle program for decades, something I didn't know. What do you think, is this a viable alternative to EVs? Apparently the range is 500+ miles between recharge.

Nikola Corporation Hydrogen in heavy-duty transport: EWG supports E.ON and Nikola in international H2 project -

E.ON and Nikola, together with partners and interested customers, are working to develop a package for hydrogen-powered heavy-duty transport. With expertise in energy, infrastructure and transportation, the Essen-based energy company and the U.S. hydrogen pioneer have set themselves the goal of...

nikolamotor.com

Hydrogen fuel cells are, IMO the way to go. Recharge is just like a gasoline powered car, except you use liquid H.

How much are cryogenic fuel tanks going to cost?
Any danger of explosion in a crash?
How often do you need to refuel?
Where do you get the hydrogen?

Cost has already been lowered by half. After just a couple of years of research. No real danger with liquid H if it is stored properly. Same as a car. Hydrogen extraction is THE big cost now. Tech research will lower that.

Cost has already been lowered by half.

So now it's only 3 times the cost and half the energy?

No real danger with liquid H if it is stored properly.

And if it's not or it's in a crash?????

Hydrogen extraction is THE big cost now.

And the big energy waste. I don't see the attraction.
Is it fear of CO2?

Yes, and just think, gasoline used to be super expensive too. Amazing how technology lowers cost and increases efficiency. I am not saying we abandon fossil fuels, far from it, but the technology research is worth doing. Just like building a base on the Moon is likewise worth doing, even though the tech advances will become apparent long after i am dead.

Yes, and just think, gasoline used to be super expensive too.

At least when you pull the oil out of the ground, it already has energy in it.

Amazing how technology lowers cost and increases efficiency.

Manufacturing liquid hydrogen is never going to make sense when discussing energy.
So why are you so interested in using it for cars?
You're not reducing pollution or saving energy or money. Why do it?

 

[westwall]

I just started reading about Nikola and their use of hydrogen fuel cells in trucks. I've been interested in hydrogen as a fuel since the early 90s when I first saw a demo of it. Apparently hydrogen fuel cells were used in the Space Shuttle program for decades, something I didn't know. What do you think, is this a viable alternative to EVs? Apparently the range is 500+ miles between recharge.

Nikola Corporation Hydrogen in heavy-duty transport: EWG supports E.ON and Nikola in international H2 project -

E.ON and Nikola, together with partners and interested customers, are working to develop a package for hydrogen-powered heavy-duty transport. With expertise in energy, infrastructure and transportation, the Essen-based energy company and the U.S. hydrogen pioneer have set themselves the goal of...

nikolamotor.com

Hydrogen fuel cells are, IMO the way to go. Recharge is just like a gasoline powered car, except you use liquid H.

How much are cryogenic fuel tanks going to cost?
Any danger of explosion in a crash?
How often do you need to refuel?
Where do you get the hydrogen?

Cost has already been lowered by half. After just a couple of years of research. No real danger with liquid H if it is stored properly. Same as a car. Hydrogen extraction is THE big cost now. Tech research will lower that.

Cost has already been lowered by half.

So now it's only 3 times the cost and half the energy?

No real danger with liquid H if it is stored properly.

And if it's not or it's in a crash?????

Hydrogen extraction is THE big cost now.

And the big energy waste. I don't see the attraction.
Is it fear of CO2?

Yes, and just think, gasoline used to be super expensive too. Amazing how technology lowers cost and increases efficiency. I am not saying we abandon fossil fuels, far from it, but the technology research is worth doing. Just like building a base on the Moon is likewise worth doing, even though the tech advances will become apparent long after i am dead.

Yes, and just think, gasoline used to be super expensive too.

At least when you pull the oil out of the ground, it already has energy in it.

Amazing how technology lowers cost and increases efficiency.

Manufacturing liquid hydrogen is never going to make sense when discussing energy.
So why are you so interested in using it for cars?
You're not reducing pollution or saving energy or money. Why do it?

Ummmm, so does Hydrogen.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

W. Bush pushed this when he was President. When the Progs took over they eliminated it.

The problem with Hydrogen is, it's the smallest molecule and that pesky little critter has a tendency to leak though the best of the seals. Now unless you are NASA or the equiv and have the facility to deal with it (lots of distance and lack of other things) then you may not want to be around a hydrogen powered car. One of the worst problems with them is when it leaks, it collects in places like fender wells and other places and just waits for something to set it off. If you do put it in a fuel cell, the cost of operation is so high it's not a viable alternative to anything but it's at least safer. Politics didn't kill it, common sense did.

Those are reasonable points. But it would seem that decades of experience with the Space Shuttle program the safety and leaking problems would have been solved.

If you haven't noticed the launches, the various fuels and gasses leak like a sive. And what should cost thousands for the space vehicle ends up costing hundreds of millions or billions to defeat the other problems including leaking hydrogen.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I just started reading about Nikola and their use of hydrogen fuel cells in trucks. I've been interested in hydrogen as a fuel since the early 90s when I first saw a demo of it. Apparently hydrogen fuel cells were used in the Space Shuttle program for decades, something I didn't know. What do you think, is this a viable alternative to EVs? Apparently the range is 500+ miles between recharge.

Nikola Corporation Hydrogen in heavy-duty transport: EWG supports E.ON and Nikola in international H2 project -

E.ON and Nikola, together with partners and interested customers, are working to develop a package for hydrogen-powered heavy-duty transport. With expertise in energy, infrastructure and transportation, the Essen-based energy company and the U.S. hydrogen pioneer have set themselves the goal of...

nikolamotor.com

Hydrogen fuel cells are, IMO the way to go. Recharge is just like a gasoline powered car, except you use liquid H.

How much are cryogenic fuel tanks going to cost?
Any danger of explosion in a crash?
How often do you need to refuel?
Where do you get the hydrogen?

Cost has already been lowered by half. After just a couple of years of research. No real danger with liquid H if it is stored properly. Same as a car. Hydrogen extraction is THE big cost now. Tech research will lower that.

Cost has already been lowered by half.

So now it's only 3 times the cost and half the energy?

No real danger with liquid H if it is stored properly.

And if it's not or it's in a crash?????

Hydrogen extraction is THE big cost now.

And the big energy waste. I don't see the attraction.
Is it fear of CO2?

Yes, and just think, gasoline used to be super expensive too. Amazing how technology lowers cost and increases efficiency. I am not saying we abandon fossil fuels, far from it, but the technology research is worth doing. Just like building a base on the Moon is likewise worth doing, even though the tech advances will become apparent long after i am dead.

Yes, and just think, gasoline used to be super expensive too.

At least when you pull the oil out of the ground, it already has energy in it.

Amazing how technology lowers cost and increases efficiency.

Manufacturing liquid hydrogen is never going to make sense when discussing energy.
So why are you so interested in using it for cars?
You're not reducing pollution or saving energy or money. Why do it?

Ummmm, so does Hydrogen.

Hopefully, unlike a liquid hydrogen fuel cell, a fusion powered car would be energy positive.

 

[fncceo]

I can't believe no one has posted THIS yet...

 

[Dick Foster]

I just started reading about Nikola and their use of hydrogen fuel cells in trucks. I've been interested in hydrogen as a fuel since the early 90s when I first saw a demo of it. Apparently hydrogen fuel cells were used in the Space Shuttle program for decades, something I didn't know. What do you think, is this a viable alternative to EVs? Apparently the range is 500+ miles between recharge.

Nikola Corporation Hydrogen in heavy-duty transport: EWG supports E.ON and Nikola in international H2 project -

E.ON and Nikola, together with partners and interested customers, are working to develop a package for hydrogen-powered heavy-duty transport. With expertise in energy, infrastructure and transportation, the Essen-based energy company and the U.S. hydrogen pioneer have set themselves the goal of...

nikolamotor.com

Hydrogen fuel cells are, IMO the way to go. Recharge is just like a gasoline powered car, except you use liquid H.

How much are cryogenic fuel tanks going to cost?
Any danger of explosion in a crash?
How often do you need to refuel?
Where do you get the hydrogen?

First two questions I dunno. But the range estimates are 500-700 miles between recharges. Electrolysis equipment apparently creates the hydrogen.

No but if we had a decent source of safe and clean electrical engery say from nuclear fission from thorium it could be.

 

[ding]

I just started reading about Nikola and their use of hydrogen fuel cells in trucks. I've been interested in hydrogen as a fuel since the early 90s when I first saw a demo of it. Apparently hydrogen fuel cells were used in the Space Shuttle program for decades, something I didn't know. What do you think, is this a viable alternative to EVs? Apparently the range is 500+ miles between recharge.

Nikola Corporation Hydrogen in heavy-duty transport: EWG supports E.ON and Nikola in international H2 project -

E.ON and Nikola, together with partners and interested customers, are working to develop a package for hydrogen-powered heavy-duty transport. With expertise in energy, infrastructure and transportation, the Essen-based energy company and the U.S. hydrogen pioneer have set themselves the goal of...

nikolamotor.com

Great technology, extremely clean as reaction produces water vapor but the cost to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen takes more energy than you get from the fuel cell when it recombines the hydrogen with oxygen so commercial viability is questionable. Lastly, there may be a safety issue with storing the hydrogen.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I just started reading about Nikola and their use of hydrogen fuel cells in trucks. I've been interested in hydrogen as a fuel since the early 90s when I first saw a demo of it. Apparently hydrogen fuel cells were used in the Space Shuttle program for decades, something I didn't know. What do you think, is this a viable alternative to EVs? Apparently the range is 500+ miles between recharge.

Nikola Corporation Hydrogen in heavy-duty transport: EWG supports E.ON and Nikola in international H2 project -

E.ON and Nikola, together with partners and interested customers, are working to develop a package for hydrogen-powered heavy-duty transport. With expertise in energy, infrastructure and transportation, the Essen-based energy company and the U.S. hydrogen pioneer have set themselves the goal of...

nikolamotor.com

Great technology, extremely clean as reaction produces water vapor but the cost to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen takes more energy than you get from the fuel cell when it recombines the hydrogen with oxygen so commercial viability is questionable. Lastly, there may be a safety issue with storing the hydrogen.

Doesn't save money, doesn't reduce pollution, doesn't save energy and isn't safer.

Seems like the perfect liberal "solution".

 

[ding]

I just started reading about Nikola and their use of hydrogen fuel cells in trucks. I've been interested in hydrogen as a fuel since the early 90s when I first saw a demo of it. Apparently hydrogen fuel cells were used in the Space Shuttle program for decades, something I didn't know. What do you think, is this a viable alternative to EVs? Apparently the range is 500+ miles between recharge.

Nikola Corporation Hydrogen in heavy-duty transport: EWG supports E.ON and Nikola in international H2 project -

E.ON and Nikola, together with partners and interested customers, are working to develop a package for hydrogen-powered heavy-duty transport. With expertise in energy, infrastructure and transportation, the Essen-based energy company and the U.S. hydrogen pioneer have set themselves the goal of...

nikolamotor.com

Great technology, extremely clean as reaction produces water vapor but the cost to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen takes more energy than you get from the fuel cell when it recombines the hydrogen with oxygen so commercial viability is questionable. Lastly, there may be a safety issue with storing the hydrogen.

Doesn't save money, doesn't reduce pollution, doesn't save energy and isn't safer.

Seems like the perfect liberal "solution".

It wouldn't be my first choice to solve a problem we don't have, that's for sure.

 

[ReinyDays]

Burning fossil fuels to make electricity is inefficient ... we lose power in the process ...

With that in mind ... we add yet another layer of inefficiencies using our fossil fuel fired electricity to make hydrogen ... even more loss of power ...

What's the point? ... we'll run out of hydrogen just like we'll run out of fossil fuels ... there's a finite amount of the stuff ya know ...

 

[esalla]

I just started reading about Nikola and their use of hydrogen fuel cells in trucks. I've been interested in hydrogen as a fuel since the early 90s when I first saw a demo of it. Apparently hydrogen fuel cells were used in the Space Shuttle program for decades, something I didn't know. What do you think, is this a viable alternative to EVs? Apparently the range is 500+ miles between recharge.

Nikola Corporation Hydrogen in heavy-duty transport: EWG supports E.ON and Nikola in international H2 project -

E.ON and Nikola, together with partners and interested customers, are working to develop a package for hydrogen-powered heavy-duty transport. With expertise in energy, infrastructure and transportation, the Essen-based energy company and the U.S. hydrogen pioneer have set themselves the goal of...

nikolamotor.com

This is very old technology. Still very dangerous.

You wanna fly a space shuttle, fine but do not put it on the road with normal people

 

[zaangalewa]

What do you all think of hydrogen fuel cells to power ships, aeroplanes, trucks and cars.

Is there any other way, if all mankind likes to survive in a civilized way?

 

[zaangalewa]

I can't believe no one has posted THIS yet...

View attachment 371232

The background of this story is it, that the Zeppelins were constructed for the use of helium. But the USA was the only producer of helium and it decided not to sell helium any longer to Germany. So Graf Zeppelin used the flammable alternative hydrogen - what went wrong in this case - and was the end of the Zeppelins. In case the Zeppelins had conquered the air, they would had been damned bad weapons and in every little town could be an airport. Zeppelins need save flying ways and force communication and peace keeping actions. They were able to transport big masses - but much more slowly. By the way: Ford said not "time is stress and makes sick" but to say "time is money" was the same. Not to forget: Aeroplanes are dangerous for the atmosphere.

 

[justinacolmena]

hydrogen fuel cells

The great thing about hydrogen is that when it burns , it produces water

I don't know what all a hydrogen fuel cell entails, or how to build one. I was bored the other day, and built a campfire out of natural bituminous coal.

Coal is mainly hydrocarbons, with a considerable excess of carbon over hydrogen. It burns very, very hot, and when it becomes too hot to burn, it sinters by consuming carbon dioxide and releasing large quantities of carbon monoxide gas. The temperature is too high at that point to thermodynamically favor the formation of carbon dioxide molecules, which are the normal product of combustion of carbon.

Anyways, a plasma must have formed in the hottest part of the fire, because when I poked an aluminum rod into it, the rod immediately softened like a wet noodle, and I received quite an electric shock from it.

The bitumen in the coal would make an excellent electrical insulator and capacitor, bit I am still not sure where the electricity would come from directly in a coal fire.

 

[zaangalewa]

hydrogen fuel cells

The great thing about hydrogen is that when it burns , it produces water

I don't know what all a hydrogen fuel cell entails, or how to build one. I was bored the other day, and built a campfire out of natural bituminous coal.

Coal is mainly hydrocarbons, with a considerable excess of carbon over hydrogen. It burns very, very hot, and when it becomes too hot to burn, it sinters by consuming carbon dioxide and releasing large quantities of carbon monoxide gas. The temperature is too high at that point to thermodynamically favor the formation of carbon dioxide molecules, which are the normal product of combustion of carbon.

Anyways, a plasma must have formed in the hottest part of the fire, because when I poked an aluminum rod into it, the rod immediately softened like a wet noodle, and I received quite an electric shock from it.

The bitumen in the coal would make an excellent electrical insulator and capacitor, bit I am still not sure where the electricity would come from directly in a coal fire.

The fuel cell is an invention from Christian Friedrich Schönbein in 1838. If you like to see fuel cells in action become a refugee, get the German citizenship and become a German soldier on our black-red-yellow submarine. The second one is unfortunatelly defect. It collided with Trumps air force one.

 

[james bond]

The hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, another compressed gas vehicle, is here now, and can be produced in models larger across the board with more driving range than the EV which is nice. Aren't you tired of those mini and full-sized mini SUVs all over the place?

2020 Jaguar EV

Comparable BMW hydrogen fuel cell vehicle

The only drawback I see is the higher cost for the HFC vehicle and higher cost for the hydrogen fuel at $5.30/gal at today's prices. Yet, companies such as FedEx and UPS are starting to use HFC vehicles. I've driven CNG vehicles and they were great for limited travel in terms of cost compared to the price of regular gas.

 

[james bond]

Doesn't save money, doesn't reduce pollution, doesn't save energy and isn't safer.

Seems like the perfect liberal "solution".

Get outta the way in your tiny EV, Toddsterpatriot, you wanker.

It does reduce pollution as been stated and saves energy. It's larger size makes it safer than the smaller EVs. The higher cost for the vehicle and fuel are the main drawbacks.