We need to stop pretending that this issue is so difficult. It is obvious even to a young child.

[montelatici]

OK, so is there any proof that the Zionist settlers had ancestors from the holy land?

You've GOT to be kidding me. They share the same culture. The same religion, customs, holidays, life event celebrations, a system of laws, language, foods, myths, stories, writings, etc, etc, etc. They are the same people.

They are completely different people culturally, linguistically, system of laws, language etc.
You know very little about the subject let's just look at food.

Halakhic Differences Between Sephardic And Ashkenazi Traditions

http://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/...ephardic-and-ashkenazi-traditions/2014/04/10/

 

[montelatici]

And Italian Rite:

"As a cultural and geographical crossroad, Italy has known most Jewish rituals and ethnic variations. However, the Italian communities have somewhat remained loyal to their particular nusach, prayer rite. Most notably Italian Jews have kept a unique set and order of prayers, cantillation style and original liturgical songs. They also developed their own specific legal codes, Judeo-Italian dialects and folkloric traditions that are not found elsewhere."

The Italian Rite - J-Italy

 

[montelatici]

In short, those that practice Roman Catholicism are just as much a people as those that practice Judaism, i.e. they are different people that practice the same religion.

 

[Shusha]

They are completely different people culturally, linguistically, system of laws, language etc.
You know very little about the subject let's just look at food.

Really? That Sephardic Jews eat chickpeas and rice on Pesach and Ashkenazi Jews don't eat chickpeas and rice on Pesach makes them an entirely different culture. Why would you even bother to make such a weak argument?

 

[louie888]

Really? That Sephardic Jews eat chickpeas and rice on Pesach and Ashkenazi Jews don't eat chickpeas and rice on Pesach makes them an entirely different culture. Why would you even bother to make such a weak argument?

He made a much larger point than that in just his last few posts. In short, he shredded your previous claim which even if true, in no way connects Europeans to Palestine.

 

[montelatici]

They are completely different people culturally, linguistically, system of laws, language etc.
You know very little about the subject let's just look at food.

Really? That Sephardic Jews eat chickpeas and rice on Pesach and Ashkenazi Jews don't eat chickpeas and rice on Pesach makes them an entirely different culture. Why would you even bother to make such a weak argument?

Food was just one example. Arab Jews adopted the Arabian culture and langauge, what similarity does that culture have with European culture of the Europeans that practice Judaism.

I am an Arab Jew | +972 Magazine

 

[Indeependent]

You always insist in Links from those who disagree with you.
You provide Links to those posts that back up what you just claimed.

You first. I've yet to see you provide any supporting evidence to anything you post.

...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

Care to provide a link supporting your assertion that there were any restrictions on Jewish migration within the various Arab, Egyptian and Turkish Empires between the 7th Century and the 19th Century CE?

To wit:

View attachment 144397

Ottoman Policy and Restrictions on Jewish Settlement in Palestine: 1881-1908: Part I on JSTOR

Thanks for helping "Groucho" out, I'm well aware of the Ottoman restrictions from 1881 onwards, but as your are doubtless aware that wasn't my question. Given the above, that still left 1,200 odd years where there were no restrictions in place and yet there was no mass migration of all these "Jewish people" allegedly "yearning" to return to their "homeland".

That was the point of posting the excerpts.

You're full of shit...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

 

[Indeependent]

OK, so is there any proof that the Zionist settlers had ancestors from the holy land?

You've GOT to be kidding me. They share the same culture. The same religion, customs, holidays, life event celebrations, a system of laws, language, foods, myths, stories, writings, etc, etc, etc. They are the same people.

They are completely different people culturally, linguistically, system of laws, language etc.
You know very little about the subject let's just look at food.

Halakhic Differences Between Sephardic And Ashkenazi Traditions

http://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/...ephardic-and-ashkenazi-traditions/2014/04/10/

99% the same; yes, my son-in-law is Sephardic and 99% of our traditions are identical.

 

[Indeependent]

They are completely different people culturally, linguistically, system of laws, language etc.
You know very little about the subject let's just look at food.

Really? That Sephardic Jews eat chickpeas and rice on Pesach and Ashkenazi Jews don't eat chickpeas and rice on Pesach makes them an entirely different culture. Why would you even bother to make such a weak argument?

Food was just one example. Arab Jews adopted the Arabian culture and langauge, what similarity does that culture have with European culture of the Europeans that practice Judaism.

I am an Arab Jew | +972 Magazine

You know dip shit about the average day of an Observant Jew.
You know even less about Judaism.
But don't worry, the Roman Catholic Church declared that the Jews would never ever return to Israel.
Yet another proclamation made by the RCC that came true.
Like Jesus came and all the nations are living at peace with one another.

 

[montelatici]

You always insist in Links from those who disagree with you.
You provide Links to those posts that back up what you just claimed.

You first. I've yet to see you provide any supporting evidence to anything you post.

...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

Care to provide a link supporting your assertion that there were any restrictions on Jewish migration within the various Arab, Egyptian and Turkish Empires between the 7th Century and the 19th Century CE?

To wit:

View attachment 144397

Ottoman Policy and Restrictions on Jewish Settlement in Palestine: 1881-1908: Part I on JSTOR

Thanks for helping "Groucho" out, I'm well aware of the Ottoman restrictions from 1881 onwards, but as your are doubtless aware that wasn't my question. Given the above, that still left 1,200 odd years where there were no restrictions in place and yet there was no mass migration of all these "Jewish people" allegedly "yearning" to return to their "homeland".

That was the point of posting the excerpts.

You're full of shit...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

It is you that is full of shit. Where do you think the Sephardic Jews went after 1492. All of those that didn't convert in Spain and Portugal? They went to where their stubborn Muslim compatriots went. The Ottoman Empire and Italy. All that wanted to go.

 

[Indeependent]

You first. I've yet to see you provide any supporting evidence to anything you post.

Care to provide a link supporting your assertion that there were any restrictions on Jewish migration within the various Arab, Egyptian and Turkish Empires between the 7th Century and the 19th Century CE?

To wit:

View attachment 144397

Ottoman Policy and Restrictions on Jewish Settlement in Palestine: 1881-1908: Part I on JSTOR

Thanks for helping "Groucho" out, I'm well aware of the Ottoman restrictions from 1881 onwards, but as your are doubtless aware that wasn't my question. Given the above, that still left 1,200 odd years where there were no restrictions in place and yet there was no mass migration of all these "Jewish people" allegedly "yearning" to return to their "homeland".

That was the point of posting the excerpts.

You're full of shit...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

It is you that is full of shit. Where do you think the Sephardic Jews went after 1492. All of those that didn't convert in Spain and Portugal? They went to where their stubborn Muslim compatriots went. The Ottoman Empire and Italy. All that wanted to go.

You constantly. demonstrate the ability to seek out a headline that matches your agenda.
Shabbos...Identical.
Rosh Hashahnah, Yom Kippur, Passover, Shevuous, Succos...Identical.
Tefillin...Identical.
99 of prayers the same.
Kosher...99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% the same.
So they eat rice and corn on Passover and you don't even know why, you ignorant dipshit. In fact, many Ashkenazim also eat rice and corn on passover because it's a rabbinic ordinance relevant to a limited time and place.

You're a Jew hating moron with zero insight on how Observant Jews live.

 

[montelatici]

To wit:

View attachment 144397

Ottoman Policy and Restrictions on Jewish Settlement in Palestine: 1881-1908: Part I on JSTOR

Thanks for helping "Groucho" out, I'm well aware of the Ottoman restrictions from 1881 onwards, but as your are doubtless aware that wasn't my question. Given the above, that still left 1,200 odd years where there were no restrictions in place and yet there was no mass migration of all these "Jewish people" allegedly "yearning" to return to their "homeland".

That was the point of posting the excerpts.

You're full of shit...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

It is you that is full of shit. Where do you think the Sephardic Jews went after 1492. All of those that didn't convert in Spain and Portugal? They went to where their stubborn Muslim compatriots went. The Ottoman Empire and Italy. All that wanted to go.

You constantly. demonstrate the ability to seek out a headline that matches your agenda.
Shabbos...Identical.
Rosh Hashahnah, Yom Kippur, Passover, Shevuous, Succos...Identical.
Tefillin...Identical.
99 of prayers the same.
Kosher...99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% the same.
So they eat rice and corn on Passover and you don't even know why, you ignorant dipshit. In fact, many Ashkenazim also eat rice and corn on passover because it's a rabbinic ordinance relevant to a limited time and place.

You're a Jew hating moron with zero insight on how Observant Jews live.

I just present facts. You make things up. A Catholic from Africa celebrates Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day and others. A Catholic from Africa is baptized, has First Communion, Confirmation and is married and recieves Extreme Unction, just like a European Catholic. And once, we all did not eat meat on Friday. I don't hate those that practice Judaism, I just state the fact that Judaism is a religion, like Christianity is. And, a person of any ancestry can practice either religion. In short, you are full of shit.

 

[Indeependent]

Thanks for helping "Groucho" out, I'm well aware of the Ottoman restrictions from 1881 onwards, but as your are doubtless aware that wasn't my question. Given the above, that still left 1,200 odd years where there were no restrictions in place and yet there was no mass migration of all these "Jewish people" allegedly "yearning" to return to their "homeland".

That was the point of posting the excerpts.

You're full of shit...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

It is you that is full of shit. Where do you think the Sephardic Jews went after 1492. All of those that didn't convert in Spain and Portugal? They went to where their stubborn Muslim compatriots went. The Ottoman Empire and Italy. All that wanted to go.

You constantly. demonstrate the ability to seek out a headline that matches your agenda.
Shabbos...Identical.
Rosh Hashahnah, Yom Kippur, Passover, Shevuous, Succos...Identical.
Tefillin...Identical.
99 of prayers the same.
Kosher...99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% the same.
So they eat rice and corn on Passover and you don't even know why, you ignorant dipshit. In fact, many Ashkenazim also eat rice and corn on passover because it's a rabbinic ordinance relevant to a limited time and place.

You're a Jew hating moron with zero insight on how Observant Jews live.

And, a person of any ancestry can practice either religion. In short, you are full of shit.

Now you post such a statement..before you stated that Ashkenazim and Sefardim are two different brands of Judaism with tons of differences.
You better delete that post if you can before everybody sees what a liar you are.

 

[montelatici]

That was the point of posting the excerpts.

You're full of shit...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

It is you that is full of shit. Where do you think the Sephardic Jews went after 1492. All of those that didn't convert in Spain and Portugal? They went to where their stubborn Muslim compatriots went. The Ottoman Empire and Italy. All that wanted to go.

You constantly. demonstrate the ability to seek out a headline that matches your agenda.
Shabbos...Identical.
Rosh Hashahnah, Yom Kippur, Passover, Shevuous, Succos...Identical.
Tefillin...Identical.
99 of prayers the same.
Kosher...99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% the same.
So they eat rice and corn on Passover and you don't even know why, you ignorant dipshit. In fact, many Ashkenazim also eat rice and corn on passover because it's a rabbinic ordinance relevant to a limited time and place.

You're a Jew hating moron with zero insight on how Observant Jews live.

And, a person of any ancestry can practice either religion. In short, you are full of shit.

Now you post such a statement..before you stated that Ashkenazim and Sefardim are two different brands of Judaism with tons of differences.
You better delete that post if you can before everybody sees what a liar you are.

Why should I delete a fact?

 

[rylah]

Like Palestine and Palestinians? "Jews" are not a "tribe", in the ethnic sense of the word, they are followers of a religion although they do, nowadays exhibit tribal behavious, much like street gangs.

Jews actually inhibit most traits of a tribal system, it's just mutated as they developed into a nation, but tribal tradition is still kept until today. You should read some Jung to understand what is tribal culture.
Religion is just ONE aspect of an ethnic group. The only problem You have is with Jews accepting other people into their tribe/family. Racial purity has never been the aim of this tribe, survival was.

In modern Zionist Israeli "hebrew" perhaps. In antiquity the word didn't exist, "Yehudi"/"Ioudaos", etc.more accutately translate as "Judahhite" or "Judean". Peoples of antiquity never defined others by their religion or religious beliefs, until the dominence of Christianity in late antiquity/early medieval eras..

Of course it did, יהודה was a clan/tribe within Israel. Jew is יהודי.
Let me me see how You disconnect it using any version of Hebrew.

You cannot ethically cleanse a religious group. Judeans changed their religions over centuries; there was never a uniform religion in the region except during a brief interlude under the Hashmoneans, the ISIS of their day.

The version of their culture at that time bears no relevance. Jews during the millenias practiced many religions and many were totally secular. Again religion is only one aspect of a tribe/ethnicity but when You have a whole religion named after a tribe, and a land that bears it, it gives clues.

You are the one constantly harping on about race and blood purity, standard Zionist ideology.

Well, I'm answering You guys. You use terms like 'ethnicity' when actually Your understanding of it strongly relies on race and blood purity. This is not how nations are formed.

No-one had (or even has now) any objection to Jewish people living in Palestine

False. 'Living' is not 'breathing' and it's not "rights".

Judenrhein is the Palestinian solution.

The objections arise when Zionists demand an exclusively Jewish state and dispossess and oppress the indigenous people there in order to achieve that state.

Your understanding of the term 'indigenous' is incorrect. Arabs are as native or indigenous to the land as the average American citizen indigenous to Milwaukee.

Let's assume, purely for the sake of argument, that I accept your premise that "Jews" are a "people" once "ethnically cleansed" from their "ancient homeland". Even if this were true, this does not give them the right to ethnically cleans others. There is nothing in statutory or customary International law that allows or has ever allowed this. Even the now defunct "right of conquest" meant you could rule the conquered population as your new subjects, not expell them en masse from their homes. In the modern context ethnic cleansing is a crime against Humanity, Zionists may have cashed in on the universal symathy generated by the Jewish Holocaust, but that currency has been spent long ago. People are no longer prepared to overlook Zionist israeli crimes against Humanity and that's why amongst the common people of the world Zionist Israel is ranked alongside pariah states like North Korea and Iran.

Nice demagoguery

 

[rylah]

Jewish people had centuries of opportunity to go and settle in Palestine, yet even under the ottomans when there were no restrictions on Jewish travel anywhere within the empire, Jewish immigrants chose to settle in Greece, Istanbul or northern Anatolia, in fact anywhere but Palestine. Jewish "yearning" to return is a Zionist myth, and that's a fact.

Actually no. Not a myth, but one of the central themes in the Jewish culture.
We have been over this before, when You tried to avoid the answers.
Why don't You open a new thread where You show us how THAT land is not at the center of the Jewish culture?

Instead of just parroting slogans louie-style, why don't You challenge Yourself to learn to speak to both sides equally?

 

[rylah]

If it was stolen from the original owners...

You mean the Canaanites, got it.

So because Habiru tribes stole the land from the original owners, the Canaanites, it's OK for a European religious group to steal the land from native people who have lived there for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

That's Zionist mentality for you.

So now I get to use the bible as well? Or is it just allowed against th Jews?

"Anti-zionist mentality."

 

[rylah]

If it was stolen from the original owners...

You mean the Canaanites, got it.

So because Habiru tribes stole the land from the original owners, the Canaanites, it's OK for a European religious group to steal the land from native people who have lived there for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

That's Zionist mentality for you.

The Caananites and the Hebrews (Jewish people) are the same peoples. There is no cultural differentiation between them. Their language and material culture was the same and they inhabited the same territory.

The Hebrew peoples and the Jewish peoples are also the same peoples. Their culture developed over time in the territory they originally inhabited and was spread to other localities when their ancestral territory was invaded, conquered and cleansed. They retained their culture through thousands of years in the diaspora.

Now, you can argue that people have no right to return to an ancestral territory once they have been removed from it, but arguing that the Jewish people were never THERE is silly.

OK, so is there any proof that the Zionist settlers had ancestors from the holy land?

Yes. If You guys actually tried to read any of the "proofs" You bring to the contrary.
What are You asking for, a pedigree?

 

[rylah]

OK, so is there any proof that the Zionist settlers had ancestors from the holy land?

You've GOT to be kidding me. They share the same culture. The same religion, customs, holidays, life event celebrations, a system of laws, language, foods, myths, stories, writings, etc, etc, etc. They are the same people.

They are completely different people culturally, linguistically, system of laws, language etc.
You know very little about the subject let's just look at food.

Halakhic Differences Between Sephardic And Ashkenazi Traditions

http://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/...ephardic-and-ashkenazi-traditions/2014/04/10/

Dude is splitting hairs on how Jews in Europe and Jews in Africa kept HAMETZ out during Passover..
And thinks this proves his point??

Do You know Sepehardi law stated during the inquisition that Jews had to hide their tzitit in the shirt, unlike the Jews in Yemen or Egypt?
Many still do today but the inquisition is supposedly "over"...

I suppose You also know that Jews who lived in Iraq and Persia call themselves Sephardi too?
Maybe we should discuss the arguments between the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmid?

 

[Indeependent]

You're full of shit...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

It is you that is full of shit. Where do you think the Sephardic Jews went after 1492. All of those that didn't convert in Spain and Portugal? They went to where their stubborn Muslim compatriots went. The Ottoman Empire and Italy. All that wanted to go.

You constantly. demonstrate the ability to seek out a headline that matches your agenda.
Shabbos...Identical.
Rosh Hashahnah, Yom Kippur, Passover, Shevuous, Succos...Identical.
Tefillin...Identical.
99 of prayers the same.
Kosher...99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% the same.
So they eat rice and corn on Passover and you don't even know why, you ignorant dipshit. In fact, many Ashkenazim also eat rice and corn on passover because it's a rabbinic ordinance relevant to a limited time and place.

You're a Jew hating moron with zero insight on how Observant Jews live.

And, a person of any ancestry can practice either religion. In short, you are full of shit.

Now you post such a statement..before you stated that Ashkenazim and Sefardim are two different brands of Judaism with tons of differences.
You better delete that post if you can before everybody sees what a liar you are.

Why should I delete a fact?

Your facts are always out of context and out of sequence.
And everything you've posted concerning Ashkenazim and Sefardim is completely wrong.