We need to stop pretending that this issue is so difficult. It is obvious even to a young child.

[Challenger]

But You can ethically cleanse a tribe from the land that bears its' name, and has a distinct culture specifically tied to that land.

Like Palestine and Palestinians? "Jews" are not a "tribe", in the ethnic sense of the word, they are followers of a religion although they do, nowadays exhibit tribal behavious, much like street gangs.

Jew' in Hebrew simply means- 'of the tribe of Judah'. And there's only one word for it in Hebrew.

In modern Zionist Israeli "hebrew" perhaps. In antiquity the word didn't exist, "Yehudi"/"Ioudaos", etc.more accutately translate as "Judahhite" or "Judean". Peoples of antiquity never defined others by their religion or religious beliefs, until the dominence of Christianity in late antiquity/early medieval eras.

I don't know what You get by discussing what "version" of their indigenous culture or religion was banned from the land -it's still ethnic cleansing.

You cannot ethically cleanse a religious group. Judeans/Palestinians changed their religions over centuries; there was never a uniform religion in the region except during a brief interlude under the Hashmoneans, the ISIS of their day.

Discussing their race or blood purity, or mixing with other people still smells like racism.

You are the one constantly harping on about race and blood purity, standard Zionist ideology.

Disagree.

You can imagine my surprise.

What part of Jews wishing to live in Judea don't You understand?

No-one had (or even has now) any objection to Jewish people living in Palestine or even having a desire to live there. The objections arise when Zionists demand an exclusively Jewish state and dispossess and oppress the indigenous people there in order to achieve that state.

Let's assume, purely for the sake of argument, that I accept your premise that "Jews" are a "people" once "ethnically cleansed" from their "ancient homeland". Even if this were true, this does not give them the right to ethnically cleans others. There is nothing in statutory or customary International law that allows or has ever allowed this. Even the now defunct "right of conquest" meant you could rule the conquered population as your new subjects, not expell them en masse from their homes. In the modern context ethnic cleansing is a crime against Humanity, Zionists may have cashed in on the universal symathy generated by the Jewish Holocaust, but that currency has been spent long ago. People are no longer prepared to overlook Zionist israeli crimes against Humanity and that's why amongst the common people of the world Zionist Israel is ranked alongside pariah states like North Korea and Iran.

 

[Challenger]

Look if Kurds or Yazidis now realized they need a state in their indigenous land, to protect themselves. And they decided to organize and gather their diaspora in that land, and even fight for it - I would be all for their rights.

Kurds are an ethnic group indigenous to the area and are entitled to their independence from Turkey, Iran and Iraq if that's what they want. I happen to support Kurdish independence, but that's a topic for another forum. Jewish people are a religious group so don't qualify; neither do the Yazidis, or the Mormons or the Amish.

...What Jews cared about was heritage, culture and survival...

Jewish people had centuries of opportunity to go and settle in Palestine, yet even under the ottomans when there were no restrictions on Jewish travel anywhere within the empire, Jewish immigrants chose to settle in Greece, Istanbul or northern Anatolia, in fact anywhere but Palestine. Jewish "yearning" to return is a Zionist myth, and that's a fact.

 

[P F Tinmore]

This is not a difficult issue. It is really straightforward.

 

[Shusha]

Kurds are an ethnic group indigenous to the area and are entitled to their independence from Turkey, Iran and Iraq if that's what they want. I happen to support Kurdish independence, but that's a topic for another forum. Jewish people are a religious group so don't qualify; neither do the Yazidis, or the Mormons or the Amish.

The objectivity of your distinction between the Kurdish people being an ethnic group while the Jewish people are not an ethnic group is suspect. By what criteria are the Kurdish people an ethnic group?

 

[louie888]

Kurds are an ethnic group indigenous to the area and are entitled to their independence from Turkey, Iran and Iraq if that's what they want. I happen to support Kurdish independence, but that's a topic for another forum. Jewish people are a religious group so don't qualify; neither do the Yazidis, or the Mormons or the Amish.

The objectivity of your distinction between the Kurdish people being an ethnic group while the Jewish people are not an ethnic group is suspect. By what criteria are the Kurdish people an ethnic group?

LOL. Strike 1. The topic is about not being able to destroy a crib and steal a room because you slept there as a baby.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR NONSTOP RACIST BULLSHIT.

 

[Shusha]

Challenger is attempting to exclude a group from "qualifying" as an ethnic group specifically to deny them human rights, and I'm the racist?!

Unbelievable.

 

[flacaltenn]

This discussion is WAAAY beyond the scope of what the OP lays out.. Although the OP is mostly baiting,, it's clear the question is simple.

Is it OK to "take Israel" because GOD says so.. A simple concept that even a child can understand. Talk to that child. Anything else is off-topic. Can't moderate it fairly.

If it gets off again -- it will be closed. Get back to the ORIGINAL scope of topic. All the good discussion going on should be in a different thread.

 

[Shusha]

The OP cartoon, imo, does not necessarily imply the "G-d said so" trope. The underlying theme of ancestral claim is a valid interpretation of the contents of the OP. The question posed in the cartoon is whether or not a replaced people have a continued claim to the land which was taken from them. The implication is that those who "used to live there" no longer have claims to the land. (Which is unfortunate for the Palestinians who currently reside elsewhere).

 

[Shusha]

Also, reducing the complex issues involved in this conflict to something a "child can understand" is problematic. It necessitates simplifying the issues down to a statement which can easily be understood by children, thus creating a leading question such as the one implied in the OP: is it okay to take property which is now claimed by others.

The answer may seem obvious, but its not. Because it leaves out a very important part of the equation -- how was the property transferred in the first place? If it was stolen from the original owners, the children might have a very different answer.

 

[Shusha]

And, "G-d said so" is NOT the driving force of the Zionist movement and never has been. Zionism is much more firmly planted on the hill of indigeneity and restoration of lands to peoples invaded, conquered, removed, cleansed, etc.

(though there most certainly are those who believe in the religious concepts as well)

 

[louie888]

The answer may seem obvious, but its not.

It is. Note "stop pretending" in the title.

And, "G-d said so" is NOT the driving force of the Zionist movement and never has been.

Total load of shit. We hear it here daily.

 

[Indeependent]

Look if Kurds or Yazidis now realized they need a state in their indigenous land, to protect themselves. And they decided to organize and gather their diaspora in that land, and even fight for it - I would be all for their rights.

Kurds are an ethnic group indigenous to the area and are entitled to their independence from Turkey, Iran and Iraq if that's what they want. I happen to support Kurdish independence, but that's a topic for another forum. Jewish people are a religious group so don't qualify; neither do the Yazidis, or the Mormons or the Amish.

...What Jews cared about was heritage, culture and survival...

Jewish people had centuries of opportunity to go and settle in Palestine, yet even under the ottomans when there were no restrictions on Jewish travel anywhere within the empire, Jewish immigrants chose to settle in Greece, Istanbul or northern Anatolia, in fact anywhere but Palestine. Jewish "yearning" to return is a Zionist myth, and that's a fact.

"Jewish people had centuries of opportunity to go and settle in Palestine, yet even under the ottomans when there were no restrictions on Jewish travel anywhere within the empire, Jewish immigrants chose to settle in Greece, Istanbul or northern Anatolia, in fact anywhere but Palestine. Jewish "yearning" to return is a Zionist myth, and that's a fact."

Even Monty knows more history than you on this matter.
No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

 

[Shusha]

And, "G-d said so" is NOT the driving force of the Zionist movement and never has been.

Total load of shit. We hear it here daily.

Here being USMB? No you don't. I can think of only one poster who tends to use this argument, and rarely at that.

 

[Indeependent]

The answer may seem obvious, but its not.

It is. Note "stop pretending" in the title.

And, "G-d said so" is NOT the driving force of the Zionist movement and never has been.

Total load of shit. We hear it here daily.

You always insist in Links from those who disagree with you.
You provide Links to those posts that back up what you just claimed.

 

[Challenger]

If it was stolen from the original owners...

You mean the Canaanites, got it.

So because Habiru tribes stole the land from the original owners, the Canaanites, it's OK for a European religious group to steal the land from native people who have lived there for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

That's Zionist mentality for you.

 

[Challenger]

You always insist in Links from those who disagree with you.
You provide Links to those posts that back up what you just claimed.

You first. I've yet to see you provide any supporting evidence to anything you post.

...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

Care to provide a link supporting your assertion that there were any restrictions on Jewish migration within the various Arab, Egyptian and Turkish Empires between the 7th Century and the 19th Century CE?

 

[montelatici]

Look if Kurds or Yazidis now realized they need a state in their indigenous land, to protect themselves. And they decided to organize and gather their diaspora in that land, and even fight for it - I would be all for their rights.

Kurds are an ethnic group indigenous to the area and are entitled to their independence from Turkey, Iran and Iraq if that's what they want. I happen to support Kurdish independence, but that's a topic for another forum. Jewish people are a religious group so don't qualify; neither do the Yazidis, or the Mormons or the Amish.

...What Jews cared about was heritage, culture and survival...

Jewish people had centuries of opportunity to go and settle in Palestine, yet even under the ottomans when there were no restrictions on Jewish travel anywhere within the empire, Jewish immigrants chose to settle in Greece, Istanbul or northern Anatolia, in fact anywhere but Palestine. Jewish "yearning" to return is a Zionist myth, and that's a fact.

"Jewish people had centuries of opportunity to go and settle in Palestine, yet even under the ottomans when there were no restrictions on Jewish travel anywhere within the empire, Jewish immigrants chose to settle in Greece, Istanbul or northern Anatolia, in fact anywhere but Palestine. Jewish "yearning" to return is a Zionist myth, and that's a fact."

Even Monty knows more history than you on this matter.
No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

The Ottomans restricted travel to Palestine for Jews only when the Zionists began harping on about taking over the place from the native people, in the 1880s:

Ottoman Policy and Restrictions on Jewish Settlement in Palestine: 1881-1908: Part I on JSTOR

 

[montelatici]

You always insist in Links from those who disagree with you.
You provide Links to those posts that back up what you just claimed.

You first. I've yet to see you provide any supporting evidence to anything you post.

...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

Care to provide a link supporting your assertion that there were any restrictions on Jewish migration within the various Arab, Egyptian and Turkish Empires between the 7th Century and the 19th Century CE?

To wit:

Ottoman Policy and Restrictions on Jewish Settlement in Palestine: 1881-1908: Part I on JSTOR

 

[Challenger]

You always insist in Links from those who disagree with you.
You provide Links to those posts that back up what you just claimed.

You first. I've yet to see you provide any supporting evidence to anything you post.

...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

Care to provide a link supporting your assertion that there were any restrictions on Jewish migration within the various Arab, Egyptian and Turkish Empires between the 7th Century and the 19th Century CE?

To wit:

View attachment 144397

Ottoman Policy and Restrictions on Jewish Settlement in Palestine: 1881-1908: Part I on JSTOR

Thanks for helping "Groucho" out, I'm well aware of the Ottoman restrictions from 1881 onwards, but as your are doubtless aware that wasn't my question. Given the above, that still left 1,200 odd years where there were no restrictions in place and yet there was no mass migration of all these "Jewish people" allegedly "yearning" to return to their "homeland".

 

[montelatici]

You always insist in Links from those who disagree with you.
You provide Links to those posts that back up what you just claimed.

You first. I've yet to see you provide any supporting evidence to anything you post.

...No empire would allow more than a certain quota of Jews into Israel for hundreds of years.

Care to provide a link supporting your assertion that there were any restrictions on Jewish migration within the various Arab, Egyptian and Turkish Empires between the 7th Century and the 19th Century CE?

To wit:

View attachment 144397

Ottoman Policy and Restrictions on Jewish Settlement in Palestine: 1881-1908: Part I on JSTOR

Thanks for helping "Groucho" out, I'm well aware of the Ottoman restrictions from 1881 onwards, but as your are doubtless aware that wasn't my question. Given the above, that still left 1,200 odd years where there were no restrictions in place and yet there was no mass migration of all these "Jewish people" allegedly "yearning" to return to their "homeland".

That was the point of posting the excerpts.