We are experiencing the biggest scandal in America's political history right now.

[Oldestyle]

The jury will when they hear the case at trial.

The DoJ makes the allegation in their indictment, but ultimately the court decides if the crime occurred.

I don't know what you're getting at other than me giving you a remedial education on the court system.

So the DOJ was alleging that a "crime" had taken place because Trump had classified documents in his possession? But rather than let a court decide if in fact Trump had the authority to possess those documents the Biden DOJ decided to raid the home of a former President looking for evidence of a crime? Is that you're going with?

 

[Marener]

So the DOJ was alleging that a "crime" had taken place because Trump had classified documents in his possession? But rather than let a court decide if in fact Trump had the authority to possess those documents the Biden DOJ decided to raid the home of a former President looking for evidence of a crime? Is that you're going with?

The court will decide at trial. In order to take it to trial, the DoJ has to be able to get evidence to support their case, which is what the subpoena and search warrant is for.

This is how the justice system works.

 

[Oldestyle]

That's an illogical assumption. What is "personal" about highly classified military documents?

Again...a President is the ultimate authority on classification.
Once again...the judge in the Clinton case declared that a President and only a President decided what was or wasn't personal when it came to papers or tapes.

What's illogical is that Clinton can decide those tapes were personal and exempt from a freedom of information request but that Trump had no such ability.

 

[Oldestyle]

The court will decide at trial. In order to take it to trial, the DoJ has to be able to get evidence to support their case, which is what the subpoena and search warrant is for.

This is how the justice system works.

In order to get a search warrant you have to show evidence that a crime has been committed. THAT is how the justice system works!

 

[Oldestyle]

You can't go to a judge and say...give me a search warrant because I think that will provide evidence of a crime!

 

[Oldestyle]

And what's REALLY amazing is that Joe Biden would allow this to happen when he knew that he himself was far more guilty of illegally possession of classified documents that Donald Trump could ever be!

 

[Marener]

Again...a President is the ultimate authority on classification.
Once again...the judge in the Clinton case declared that a President and only a President decided what was or wasn't personal when it came to papers or tapes.

Having the authority to do something does not mean that they used that authority. If Trump intended to make these documents declassified and personal, he caused confusion by not telling anyone. The DoJ was merely behaving logically because the documents had all the appearances of being highly classified military documents and there was no indication they were anything else.

What's illogical is that Clinton can decide those tapes were personal and exempt from a freedom of information request but that Trump had no such ability.

Do you actually know anything about those tapes? Clinton made those tapes himself.

 

[Marener]

You can't go to a judge and say...give me a search warrant because I think that will provide evidence of a crime!

You go before the judge and say you have probable cause to believe that the search warrant will provide evidence for a crime. There was probable cause to believe that Trump had illegally retained classified documents.

That's exactly what the DoJ did.

 

[Oldestyle]

Having the authority to do something does not mean that they used that authority. If Trump intended to make these documents declassified and personal, he caused confusion by not telling anyone. The DoJ was merely behaving logically because the documents had all the appearances of being highly classified military documents and there was no indication they were anything else.

Do you actually know anything about those tapes? Clinton made those tapes himself.

You keep saying that Trump caused "confusion", Marener...like that is some sort of a crime? He had documents securely stored at Mar A Lago in a room that had been inspected by the FBI.

Nixon made the White House tapes himself as well. They were ruled not to be personal tapes. The liberal judge in the Clinton case reversed that. She ruled that Clinton and only Clinton could decide what was or wasn't personal. Now you on the left want to reverse that back to the standard that applied for Nixon. But you don't see the double standard...do you?

 

[Oldestyle]

You go before the judge and say you have probable cause to believe that the search warrant will provide evidence for a crime. There was probable cause to believe that Trump had illegally retained classified documents.

That's exactly what the DoJ did.

And any competent judge would ask you if a former President's personal documents would even be considered "classified"! To which you would answer what, Marener?

 

[Oldestyle]

Any competent judge would tell you to get THAT question decided before even attempting to get a search warrant for a former President's home!

 

[Marener]

You keep saying that Trump caused "confusion", Marener...like that is some sort of a crime? He had documents securely stored at Mar A Lago in a room that had been inspected by the FBI.

Nixon made the White House tapes himself as well. They were ruled not to be personal tapes. The liberal judge in the Clinton case reversed that. She ruled that Clinton and only Clinton could decide what was or wasn't personal. Now you on the left want to reverse that back to the standard that applied for Nixon. But you don't see the double standard...do you?

You keep accusing the DoJ of behaving badly when they're merely operating as anyone would expect them to when there are highly classified military documents being kept outside the custody of the government.

Nixon's tapes predate the Presidential Records Act and he was required to turn them over because they were subpoenaed by a grand jury for investigation of a crime. There never was any ruling on whether or not they were personal documents.

Clinton's tapes were him talking with a friend and historian about his presidency. Seems pretty personal to me. Like a diary. The Archivist agreed.

The highly classified military documents that Trump kept clearly fit the definition of a presidential record as outlined by the PRA. No one would assume they were personal documents. The DoJ wouldn't assume that. It defies logic.

 

[Marener]

And any competent judge would ask you if a former President's personal documents would even be considered "classified"! To which you would answer what, Marener?

Why would the judge ask that? There's no indication that they're personal documents. They had recovered highly classified military documents. Anyone competent would be able to differentiate government documents from personal documents.

Even if they were "personal documents" they bore the classification markings which means they were legally required to be handed over in response to the subpoena.

But you already knew that and ignored it.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Oh, John...why do you even bother? Such a buffoon...

... because rebuffing buffoons like you is so easy and fun.

 

[Oldestyle]

Why would the judge ask that? There's no indication that they're personal documents. They had recovered highly classified military documents. Anyone competent would be able to differentiate government documents from personal documents.

Even if they were "personal documents" they bore the classification markings which means they were legally required to be handed over in response to the subpoena.

But you already knew that and ignored it.

For starters because any competent judge would know that a President is the ultimate authority on the classification of documents and by definition any documents in his possession he would have the right to possess. Any competent judge would ask the DOJ if documents that had been declassified would necessarily be in a binder NOT marked classified if they were in the possession of a President or if in fact documents might be declassified and yet remain in binders marked as classified? Any competent judge would ask the DOJ if they had exhausted all avenues OTHER than a raid on a former President's home!

Which of course is why the Garland DOJ went to this Magistrate to get their search warrant! They were looking for someone that would give them what a competent judge wouldn't...carte blanche to search a former President's home looking for evidence of a crime that they hadn't established had even taken place!

 

[Oldestyle]

... because rebuffing buffoons like you is so easy and fun.

And yet you make it look so hard, John...

 

[Marener]

For starters because any competent judge would know that a President is the ultimate authority on the classification of documents and by definition any documents in his possession he would have the right to possess. Any competent judge would ask the DOJ if documents that had been declassified would necessarily be in a binder NOT marked classified if they were in the possession of a President or if in fact documents might be declassified and yet remain in binders marked as classified? Any competent judge would ask the DOJ if they had exhausted all avenues OTHER than a raid on a former President's home!

Which of course is why the Garland DOJ went to this Magistrate to get their search warrant! They were looking for someone that would give them what a competent judge wouldn't...carte blanche to search a former President's home looking for evidence of a crime that they hadn't established had even taken place!

There is no legal necessity for the DoJ to “exhaust all avenues other“ than a search warrant. The judge would not ask that question because it wouldn’t be an appropriate consideration to deny a search warrant.

Given there was no indication any of the documents were declassified, even if the judge did ask, the DoJ would answer honesty by indicating that the documents were classified. Classified documents remain classified whether they’re in a folder or a box or the president’s basement. They only become declassified when the president or someone with the proper authority declassified them, and the DoJ was unaware of anyone declassifying them so they are performing their legally required duties to protect national security by returning them to the government.

The idea that the president would declassify documents without telling anyone is unprecedented and illogical.

 

[Oldestyle]

There is no legal necessity for the DoJ to “exhaust all avenues other“ than a search warrant. The judge would not ask that question because it wouldn’t be an appropriate consideration to deny a search warrant.

Given there was no indication any of the documents were declassified, even if the judge did ask, the DoJ would answer honesty by indicating that the documents were classified. Classified documents remain classified whether they’re in a folder or a box or the president’s basement. They only become declassified when the president or someone with the proper authority declassified them, and the DoJ was unaware of anyone declassifying them so they are performing their legally required duties to protect national security by returning them to the government.

The idea that the president would declassify documents without telling anyone is unprecedented and illogical.

There is no legal necessity to exhaust all other avenues other than a search warrant? If I were the judge you were asking for a search warrant to raid a former President's home with an FBI Swat team I would tell you very directly that you'd best have exhausted all other avenues before you came to me with such a request and if I felt that you hadn't? I would tell you to come back when you had! This wasn't a request to raid a suspected crack house...this was a request to raid the HOME of a former President of the United States! The level of proof you would have to give me to sign off on a search warrant...especially one as broad as that request was for...would have to be off the charts!

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Oldestyle is being silly again.

The Judge made the determination that the warrant was necessary and legal.

Oldestyle thinks he should have been consulted.

 

[Oldestyle]

There is no legal necessity for the DoJ to “exhaust all avenues other“ than a search warrant. The judge would not ask that question because it wouldn’t be an appropriate consideration to deny a search warrant.

Given there was no indication any of the documents were declassified, even if the judge did ask, the DoJ would answer honesty by indicating that the documents were classified. Classified documents remain classified whether they’re in a folder or a box or the president’s basement. They only become declassified when the president or someone with the proper authority declassified them, and the DoJ was unaware of anyone declassifying them so they are performing their legally required duties to protect national security by returning them to the government.

The idea that the president would declassify documents without telling anyone is unprecedented and illogical.

If the DOJ told me that the documents were classified. I'd ask them how it is that they knew that to be the case? I'd ask them how it was that they KNEW that Trump hadn't declassified them! Being "unaware" of them being declassified doesn't even come close to meeting the level of proof that would be neccessary to get that warrant!