Was Winston Churchill a catastrophe?

[JakeStarkey]

The anti-Churchill brigade members here are very uninformed.

Which statement in the OP do you object to?

In fact, Churchill was a voice in the wilderness crying out against Nazis and Communists.

In fact, Churchill thought appeasement at Munich with Hitler by Chamberlain guaranteed war with Hitler.

For starters.

 

[Thunderbird]

In fact, Churchill was a voice in the wilderness crying out against Nazis and Communists.

Given the massacres of civilians he is responsible for, was Churchill so much better?

In fact, Churchill thought appeasement at Munich with Hitler by Chamberlain guaranteed war with Hitler.

Was the war guarantee to Poland a wise move? Poland was not saved. Stalin was happy to see Britain & France fighting with Germany. Don't you see how the Communists benefited?

 

[JakeStarkey]

In fact, Churchill was a voice in the wilderness crying out against Nazis and Communists.

Given the massacres of civilians he is responsible for, was Churchill so much better?

In fact, Churchill thought appeasement at Munich with Hitler by Chamberlain guaranteed war with Hitler.

Was the war guarantee to Poland a wise move? Poland was not saved. Stalin was happy to see Britain & France fighting with Germany. Don't you see how the Communists benefited?

Are you in fifth form, Thunderbird, that act such uninformed, naïve questions?

More than fifty million died, at least, with a quarter billion displaced.

And you want to blame that on Churchill? Really?

 

[JakeStarkey]

2. Feeding Hitler Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland had one aim: to strengthen German military might and bring Germany onto the Russian/USSR borders.

Then why did the UK declare war after the German invasion of Poland?

Why not?

After all, by then Britain and Germany divided their spheres of influence: the East was after Germans, West -- after British...

Declaring war on Germany was a tacit deterrent. Britain did not trust Hitler (it was a big game!) and was conducting small operations around their territories and waters. But it did not interfere with Hitler's advance Eastwards.

Revision of history without new facts, merely an uninformed hashing of old facts. D minus, maybe.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"by large", no, the British elite were not for the Nazis.

The country went to war before Churchill, as Chamberlain reached for unity, became First Sea Lord.

Where are you learning history? Are you not reading and reading and reading?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Why not?

After all, by then Britain and Germany divided their spheres of influence: the East was after Germans, West -- after British...

Declaring war on Germany was a tacit deterrent. Britain did not trust Hitler (it was a big game!) and was conducting small operations around their territories and waters. But it did not interfere with Hitler's advance Eastwards.

Revision of history without new facts, merely an uninformed hashing of old facts. D minus, maybe.

It is not a revision of HISTORY, it is a revision of what was passing for "history" in the West since the Cold War.

Are you going to tell me there was no agreement between Britain and Germany regarding division of spheres of power just before Hitler's invasion of Poland?!
Or, maybe there was no phony war of 1939-1940?

It is YOUR revision of history with no new facts. England did not sanction Germany's invasion of Poland. In fact, when Germany absorbed the remainder of Czechoslovakia in early 1939, France and Germany began preparing for war.

You are making conclusions unwarranted by the facts.

 

[editec]

Churchill was a great speaker and England needed him during the war but the people dumped Churchill at war's end. Churchill as noted made a number of bad decisions, and one involved Munich. While we blame Chamberlain for peace in our time, in no way could the English had done anything to resist Hitler's taking of the Sudentland. Churchill had voted with others at the end of WWI England's for the rule of ten. England was not prepared because of that rule. As I think of other mistakes, the soft underbelly and so forth, I say again, Churchill was a great speaker.

Utter BOLOX!

1. Feeding German Nazi machine was a DELIBERATE policy of UK and France. They intended to conclude the problem of both Germany and Russia by making sure one will destroy the other in war, and Britain and France will finish off the victor.

2. Feeding Hitler Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland had one aim: to strengthen German military might and bring Germany onto the Russian/USSR borders.

3. Only after Hitler attacked France instead of USSR, contrary to agreement with Britain, did UK enter the war in earnest; because British elites realised that Hitler is not going to be their chimp and that they may be next.

That is a perceptive (and possibly correct) observation, Mememe.

I note that it is only a "possible" interpretation because fathoming MOTIVE is impossible unless the subject comes out and says what his or her motive is, and EVEN THEN you have to take into account that people (especially leaders of nations) lie about their motives.

But one must wonder why both France and England did NOTHING, when Germany began breaking the terms of the treaty of Versaille.

And even after RUSSIA AND GERMANY invaded Poland very little was done then, either. Basically they left Poland on its own.

The period after Germany and Russia invaded poland and England and France declared war was, after all, called the PHONY WAR.

 

[JakeStarkey]

This is the basic false assumption of this discussion: "Feeding German Nazi machine was a DELIBERATE policy of UK and France. They intended to conclude the problem of both Germany and Russia by making sure one will destroy the other in war, and Britain and France will finish off the victor."

Show conclusive evidence that such was the agreed upon foreign policy jointly by Britain and France.

 

[Toronado3800]

Here's George Kennan: “the British guaranty to Poland [in 1939] was neither necessary nor wise,”

How can anyone disagree?

Sir, my theory is the time for appeasement was over. This accomplished little but while Charles Lindburgh was fighting for letting Hitler do whatever at least the British and French were starting to yell.

Would you have just watched Hitler take 2/3 of Poland and then France? What is your idea?

 

[Sulphuric]

As an Englishman, he was a great war time leader, but when he was PM again in the early 50s he was a disaster and had learned nothing from the election of 1945 when his Conservative Party were defeated.

 

[Meathead]

And even after RUSSIA AND GERMANY invaded Poland

The USSR did not invade Poland.

Poland was over by the 17-th of September; its government surrendered its powers to London and was sitting on Romanian border waiting evacuation.

Only then the Soviet Union moved into the RUSSIAN territories occupied by Poland in 1922 -- territories of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus.

Your such an ass. The USSR invaded Poland as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact following the German invasion of the Poland's western lands. Where the hell do you get this nonsense you post. I thought the Soviet Union stopped issuing directives to the party faithful when it collapsed.

Stalin did not instantly interpret the protocol as permitting the Soviet Union to grab territory. Stalin was waiting to see whether the Germans would halt within the agreed area, and also the Soviet Union needed to secure the frontier in the Far East.[108] On 17 September the Red Army invaded Poland, violating the 1932 Soviet–Polish Non-Aggression Pact, and occupied the Polish territory assigned to it by the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. This was followed by co-ordination with German forces in Poland

Molotov?Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Toronado3800]

This is the basic false assumption of this discussion: "Feeding German Nazi machine was a DELIBERATE policy of UK and France. They intended to conclude the problem of both Germany and Russia by making sure one will destroy the other in war, and Britain and France will finish off the victor."

Show conclusive evidence that such was the agreed upon foreign policy jointly by Britain and France.

I already gave PRIME sources on that in some other thread of this forum (twice!).

Sir, I am very happy to agree with you that many in America and probably the UK looked forward to a strong Germany invading Communist Russia. Roosevelt had a heck of a time fighting them and the folks who were tired from the horrors of the last war just 20 years previous.

Still though you must question the accuracy of any source that stretches logic to claim the U.S.S.R. did not invade Poland.

 

[Toronado3800]

Your such an ass. The USSR invaded Poland as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact following the German invasion of the Poland's western lands. Where the hell do you get this nonsense you post. I thought the Soviet Union stopped issuing directives to the party faithful when it collapsed.

Stalin did not instantly interpret the protocol as permitting the Soviet Union to grab territory. Stalin was waiting to see whether the Germans would halt within the agreed area, and also the Soviet Union needed to secure the frontier in the Far East.[108] On 17 September the Red Army invaded Poland, violating the 1932 Soviet–Polish Non-Aggression Pact, and occupied the Polish territory assigned to it by the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. This was followed by co-ordination with German forces in Poland

Molotov?Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. You want to see an ass -- look in a mirror.

2. Have you read that non-aggression pact? No, you haven't. There, edumacate yourself. And after you will read it, together with a secret protocol, point me in the direction of any JOINT invasion!
The Avalon Project : Nazi-Soviet Relations 1939-1941: Treaty of Nonaggression Between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The Avalon Project : Nazi-Soviet Relations 1939-1941: Secret Additional Protocol

3. Not even Polish command thought that the USSR invaded Poland: Polish military was given orders NOT to engage the Soviets, while continue fighting the Germans!

4. You moron, I bet you did not even know that in 1922 Poland ANNEXED West Ukraine and West Belarus! That's the territories the USSR reclaimed after the collapse of Polish state as a result of German invasion.

Conclusion: you are a stupid twat.

Nice source, but is the second link making the point against you? Sounds like a plan to invade Poland right or wrong.

Think of it this way. The U.S. got Texas from Mexico as result of some shady dealings. If Mexico somehow got troops up to the Oklahoma border and reclaimed it we woukd all think of it as a war.

Don't listed to the folks who told you we were not at war in Korea or Vietnam.

 

[Meathead]

What was the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact? Poland had Lvov, which had been Polish since the 14th century. After WWII it was granted by Stalin to the Ukraine and the Poles that survived the war were sent within the territories of Poland which were allotted by your beloved leader. Reclaimed, my ass. Do you know anything at all about history?

 

[Toronado3800]

Churchill escalated the violence.

quote: Churchill was an ardent proponent of this view, and when he became prime minister he immediately instituted a policy of civilian bombing. Baker aptly cites the British Air Ministry official James Spaight as acknowledging that England, not Germany, began this grossly immoral policy, memorably condemned during the war by the courageous Bishop George Bell.

It was the second night of Churchill's prime ministership… "We began to bomb objectives on the German mainland before the Germans began to bomb objectives on the British mainland."

LINK

He believed in total war. Destroying German civilians with the massive bombing raids was deplorable, inhumane, and barbaric. Why destroy German civilians? They were not responsible for the heinous actions of their political leadership.

If I recall correctly, several German officers sought help from the Allies to oust Hitler on multiple occasions. The Allies purposely chose to ignore them.

Churchill feared Germany more than he feared the Soviets. He, like most Brits of his time, thought Britannia should rule the world and he believed Germany threatened their hegemony.

Destroying German was dumb. Doing so removed a check on Soviet imperialism. It merely opened up Europe to conquest by the stinking commies.

The fact that FDR was Stalin's Stooge and his administration completely overrun with Soviet spies, which FDR was warned about repeatedly and chose to ignore, makes one conclude FDR a traitor. His son in-law thought so...

the observations of the son-in-law of President Roosevelt, Colonel Curtis Dall, as relayed by Henry Makow, might shed some useful light:

Dall maintained a family loyalty but could not avoid several disheartening conclusions in his book [FDR: My Exploited Father-in-Law, 1970]. He portrays the legendary president not as a leader but as a “quarterback” with little actual power. The “coaching staff” consisted of a coterie of handlers (“advisers” like Louis Howe, Bernard Baruch and Harry Hopkins) who represented the international banking cartel. For Dall, FDR ultimately was a traitor manipulated by “World Money” and motivated by conceit and personal ambition.
http://www.dcdave.com/article5/060409.htm

I know and am happy the idea of total war sounds barbaric. This was not a war of occupation like Vietnam or our most recent two. Don't let the bleeding hearts lie to you.

The air war was necessary to bleed German airpower. It was necessary to disrupt production.

It was bloody. It was as terrible as using the A bomb as a warning to Stalin. Probably necessary though. Don't let them peace lovin stoned hippies tell ya otherwise.

 

[Toronado3800]

I already gave PRIME sources on that in some other thread of this forum (twice!).

Sir, I am very happy to agree with you that many in America and probably the UK looked forward to a strong Germany invading Communist Russia. Roosevelt had a heck of a time fighting them and the folks who were tired from the horrors of the last war just 20 years previous.

Still though you must question the accuracy of any source that stretches logic to claim the U.S.S.R. did not invade Poland.

Once more:

1. By the time the Red army entered the territories of West Ukraine and West Belarus formerly occupied by Poland, Poland as a state was finished: its government delegated its powers to London and was waiting evacuation on Romanian border. Poland became a "property" of Germany.

2. In 1922 Poland ANNEXED territories of West Ukraine and West Belarus. These were the territories the USSR RECLAIMED AFTER the collapse of the Polish state.

3. Even Polish command did not consider Soviet retake of Ukrainian and Belorussian lands as an invasion; thus its ORDERS to Polish military NOT to engage the Red Army.

You opinion of the definition of invasion is very unique indeed then so much so I think you should no longer converse in English but use a translator.

 

[Meathead]

Once again, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was an agreement to divide Poland. Stalin was stupid enough to discard what could have been a buffer state in order to expand Soviet influence and think that Hitler did not have designs of the USSR. Your beloved leader seriously miscalculated, causing an incredible amount of suffering and death, more among his own people than anyone else. It is hard to believe that in this day and age anyone would defend Stalin. Most Russians don't want to talk about, or even be reminded of him.

Stalin is up there with Tamerlane, Genghis Khan and Pol Pot in the cesspool of history. Churchill, on the other hand is undoubtedly one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century and among those of all time.

 

[Toronado3800]

Though Winston Churchill has been piled with praise by the established order, I think Churchill was a catastrophe - a barbaric war-loving incompetent.

His "achievements":

• He helped push the UK into WW I. Without UK involvement the war would have ended quickly.
• He bears responsibility for the Gallipoli disaster.
• He instituted the hunger blockade of Germany which killed 100s of 1000s.
• He supported gas attacks on Iraqi civilians.
• His stupid decision to return the UK to the gold standard helped bring about the Great Depression.
• He supported the foolish war guarantee to Poland. Poland was not saved, only Stalin benefited.
• He is responsible for the debacle of the Norway invasion.
• His policy of terror bombing in WW II led to additional 100s of 1000s of deaths.
• Churchill's forced repatriation of refugees after WW II condemned millions to servitude and death.
• Churchill also deserves blame for the Bengal famine which killed 1-3 million.

Rethinking Churchill

Churchill Spurred the Decline of the West

I can not claim Churchill did not make mistakes militarily.

About your WWI point, you would have preferred the UK have stayed out of it? What is your idea of the map of Europe if the UK was neutral? And would that have been your desired outcome?

 

[JakeStarkey]

This is the basic false assumption of this discussion: "Feeding German Nazi machine was a DELIBERATE policy of UK and France. They intended to conclude the problem of both Germany and Russia by making sure one will destroy the other in war, and Britain and France will finish off the victor."

Show conclusive evidence that such was the agreed upon foreign policy jointly by Britain and France.

I already gave PRIME sources on that in some other thread of this forum (twice!).

That does not make the conclusion true, though. I can give you a primary source that someone thinks the moon is made of cheese.

Your revisionism is not well based.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your such an ass. The USSR invaded Poland as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact following the German invasion of the Poland's western lands. Where the hell do you get this nonsense you post. I thought the Soviet Union stopped issuing directives to the party faithful when it collapsed.

Stalin did not instantly interpret the protocol as permitting the Soviet Union to grab territory. Stalin was waiting to see whether the Germans would halt within the agreed area, and also the Soviet Union needed to secure the frontier in the Far East.[108] On 17 September the Red Army invaded Poland, violating the 1932 Soviet–Polish Non-Aggression Pact, and occupied the Polish territory assigned to it by the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. This was followed by co-ordination with German forces in Poland

Molotov?Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. You want to see an ass -- look in a mirror.

2. Have you read that non-aggression pact? No, you haven't. There, edumacate yourself. And after you will read it, together with a secret protocol, point me in the direction of any JOINT invasion!
The Avalon Project : Nazi-Soviet Relations 1939-1941: Treaty of Nonaggression Between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The Avalon Project : Nazi-Soviet Relations 1939-1941: Secret Additional Protocol

3. Not even Polish command thought that the USSR invaded Poland: Polish military was given orders NOT to engage the Soviets, while continue fighting the Germans!

4. You moron, I bet you did not even know that in 1922 Poland ANNEXED West Ukraine and West Belarus! That's the territories the USSR reclaimed after the collapse of Polish state as a result of German invasion.

Conclusion: you are a stupid twat.

Your case study would be a superior example of false revisionism.

You receive an F for this silly attempt.