Was Hiroshima Wrong?

[westwall]

Sure. But less so than 9/11 and Hiroshima because its targets weren't civilians.

Actually the Japanese strafed civilian targets that happened across their path, 68 civilians were killed during the attack and the Japanese had to go out of their way to kill them.

Yet they weren't the primary target and 68 isn't quite 3,000 or 200,000.

Which is true, however as evidenced by the Japanese murder of 300,000 civilians in Nanking in 1937 they certainly felt that civilians were fair game. The Japanese soldiers simply brutal extermination of the Chinese army POWs where they burned them alive, conducted bayonet practice upon them, mowed them down with machine guns and beheaded them while conducting sword practice, all well documented by the Japanese mind you so there is no doubt that it occured, goes a long way towards explaining why Japanese casualties weren't the major consideration for our leaders. And yes this was all known back then.

 

[Kalam]

Which is true, however as evidenced by the Japanese murder of 300,000 civilians in Nanking in 1937 they certainly felt that civilians were fair game. The Japanese soldiers simply brutal extermination of the Chinese army POWs where they burned them alive, conducted bayonet practice upon them, mowed them down with machine guns and beheaded them while conducting sword practice, all well documented by the Japanese mind you so there is no doubt that it occured, goes a long way towards explaining why Japanese casualties weren't the major consideration for our leaders. And yes this was all known back then.

OK. Why does this matter? Were all Japanese people collectively guilty of these crimes and thus deserving of an atomic bomb?

 

[JBeukema]

Actually the Japanese strafed civilian targets that happened across their path, 68 civilians were killed during the attack and the Japanese had to go out of their way to kill them.

Yet they weren't the primary target and 68 isn't quite 3,000 or 200,000.

Which is true, however as evidenced by the Japanese murder of 300,000 civilians in Nanking in 1937 they certainly felt that civilians were fair game. The Japanese soldiers simply brutal extermination of the Chinese army POWs where they burned them alive, conducted bayonet practice upon them, mowed them down with machine guns and beheaded them while conducting sword practice, all well documented by the Japanese mind you so there is no doubt that it occured, goes a long way towards explaining why Japanese casualties weren't the major consideration for our leaders. And yes this was all known back then.

Et tu?

We shouldn't bother being better than them?

 

[westwall]

Which is true, however as evidenced by the Japanese murder of 300,000 civilians in Nanking in 1937 they certainly felt that civilians were fair game. The Japanese soldiers simply brutal extermination of the Chinese army POWs where they burned them alive, conducted bayonet practice upon them, mowed them down with machine guns and beheaded them while conducting sword practice, all well documented by the Japanese mind you so there is no doubt that it occured, goes a long way towards explaining why Japanese casualties weren't the major consideration for our leaders. And yes this was all known back then.

OK. Why does this matter? Were all Japanese people collectively guilty of these crimes and thus deserving of an atomic bomb?

No, they weren't, but they supported the regime that brought those horrors to the Chinese
so while they may not have been responsible they certainly suffered the consequences for their support. And believe me as long as they were winning they gave their full and unwavering support to Tojo and his minions.

 

[westwall]

Yet they weren't the primary target and 68 isn't quite 3,000 or 200,000.

Which is true, however as evidenced by the Japanese murder of 300,000 civilians in Nanking in 1937 they certainly felt that civilians were fair game. The Japanese soldiers simply brutal extermination of the Chinese army POWs where they burned them alive, conducted bayonet practice upon them, mowed them down with machine guns and beheaded them while conducting sword practice, all well documented by the Japanese mind you so there is no doubt that it occured, goes a long way towards explaining why Japanese casualties weren't the major consideration for our leaders. And yes this was all known back then.

Et tu?

We shouldn't bother being better than them?

Ahh but we were in the long run. Our leaders goals were to end the war with the least amount of casualties on our side. Secondarily if they were able to end the war before we had to invade with the concurrent horrendous losses on both sides, then they were obligated to do that as well.

They succeeded on both accounts. Trying to equate 9/11 with the bombs is in error, because as has been pointed out the net result of 9/11 has been far more death and destruction to the Islamic people then would ever have occured had 9/11 not happened, so 9/11 was an abject failure on all counts.

 

[JBeukema]

Which is true, however as evidenced by the Japanese murder of 300,000 civilians in Nanking in 1937 they certainly felt that civilians were fair game. The Japanese soldiers simply brutal extermination of the Chinese army POWs where they burned them alive, conducted bayonet practice upon them, mowed them down with machine guns and beheaded them while conducting sword practice, all well documented by the Japanese mind you so there is no doubt that it occured, goes a long way towards explaining why Japanese casualties weren't the major consideration for our leaders. And yes this was all known back then.

OK. Why does this matter? Were all Japanese people collectively guilty of these crimes and thus deserving of an atomic bomb?

No, they weren't, but they supported the regime that brought those horrors to the Chinese

How do you know that? How do you know they weren't just like you and me- ordinary workin' folk trying to get by in the world around them?

Or do you need them to be guilty somehow? To ease your conscience as you justify their deaths?

 

[Kalam]

Which is true, however as evidenced by the Japanese murder of 300,000 civilians in Nanking in 1937 they certainly felt that civilians were fair game. The Japanese soldiers simply brutal extermination of the Chinese army POWs where they burned them alive, conducted bayonet practice upon them, mowed them down with machine guns and beheaded them while conducting sword practice, all well documented by the Japanese mind you so there is no doubt that it occured, goes a long way towards explaining why Japanese casualties weren't the major consideration for our leaders. And yes this was all known back then.

OK. Why does this matter? Were all Japanese people collectively guilty of these crimes and thus deserving of an atomic bomb?

No, they weren't, but they supported the regime that brought those horrors to the Chinese
so while they may not have been responsible they certainly suffered the consequences for their support. And believe me as long as they were winning they gave their full and unwavering support to Tojo and his minions.

Can the same be said about the United States?

. . .the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. . .The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want. . .So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates. . .This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' | World news | Observer.co.uk​

 

[JBeukema]

OK. Why does this matter? Were all Japanese people collectively guilty of these crimes and thus deserving of an atomic bomb?

No, they weren't, but they supported the regime that brought those horrors to the Chinese
so while they may not have been responsible they certainly suffered the consequences for their support. And believe me as long as they were winning they gave their full and unwavering support to Tojo and his minions.

Can the same be said about the United States?

. . .the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. . .The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want. . .So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates. . .This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' | World news | Observer.co.uk​

The same question I asked West goes for ObL

 

[westwall]

OK. Why does this matter? Were all Japanese people collectively guilty of these crimes and thus deserving of an atomic bomb?

No, they weren't, but they supported the regime that brought those horrors to the Chinese

How do you know that? How do you know they weren't just like you and me- ordinary workin' folk trying to get by in the world around them?

Or do you need them to be guilty somehow? To ease your conscience as you justify their deaths?

Because it is well documented. Now answer me this why are you trying to start a fight? Where have I ever said they were guilty? Please look at my post above, I said no they were not guilty but they suffered the consequences of their support for the regime that was responsible. Do you understand the difference?

I support what our leaders did because they saved our mens lives, that is what matters to me. That is also thankfully what mattered to them. This is the real world. Actions have consequences. Yes the US was embargoing the Japanese for their horrific actions in China and elsewhere, however the Japanese chose to attack us, we did not attack them first. They lost and we made sure we suffered as few casulaties to our men as possible that is the number one responsibility of a military leader.

It came out after the fact that the bombs also saved at least a million Japanese that would otherwise have died on the beaches. That was not the intent of the bombs but it was a happy unintended consequence. We're not talking about moral relativism, we're talking about a military leaders responsibility to his troops. The Japanese abrogated that responsibilty by their desire to kill their civilian population in an effort to so horrify the US military that we would decide to negotiate, that way the Japanese leaders would not lose "face".

That was the Japanese goal and that too is well documented. The sole people responsible for the use of the bombs are the Japanese leadership who decided that their reputations were more important than a million or so civilians. That is unarguable.

 

[westwall]

OK. Why does this matter? Were all Japanese people collectively guilty of these crimes and thus deserving of an atomic bomb?

No, they weren't, but they supported the regime that brought those horrors to the Chinese
so while they may not have been responsible they certainly suffered the consequences for their support. And believe me as long as they were winning they gave their full and unwavering support to Tojo and his minions.

Can the same be said about the United States?

. . .the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. . .The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want. . .So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates. . .This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' | World news | Observer.co.uk​

The US cicilian population chooses their leadership yes, however we also have a chance to change leadership that we don't like. 9/11 murdered non Americans as well if you hadn't noticed, including Muslims. What crime did they commit that neccessitated their murders?
Your argument fails there as does Bin Ladens.

 

[JBeukema]

No, they weren't, but they supported the regime that brought those horrors to the Chinese

How do you know that? How do you know they weren't just like you and me- ordinary workin' folk trying to get by in the world around them?

Or do you need them to be guilty somehow? To ease your conscience as you justify their deaths?

Because it is well documented.

That everyone who was killed supported the regime and wished death to all Americans?

Please provide your sources.

Now answer me this why are you trying to start a fight? Where have I ever said they were guilty? Please look at my post above, I said no they were not guilty but they suffered the consequences of their support for the regime

How do you know they al supported the regime? Also, you first say they're not responsible- then you immediately explain how they, through their support, are responsible and deserved what they got.

Do you understand the difference?

I understand that you can't be honest with yourself about how you feel about this

Actions have consequences.

As bin Laden said in explaining 9/11...

 

[del]

How do you know that? How do you know they weren't just like you and me- ordinary workin' folk trying to get by in the world around them?

Or do you need them to be guilty somehow? To ease your conscience as you justify their deaths?

Because it is well documented.

That everyone who was killed supported the regime and wished death to all Americans?

Please provide your sources.

How do you know they al supported the regime? Also, you first say they're not responsible- then you immediately explain how they, through their support, are responsible and deserved what they got.

Do you understand the difference?

I understand that you can't be honest with yourself about how you feel about this

Actions have consequences.

As bin Laden said in explaining 9/11...

your tag line is half right, anyway.

 

[Kalam]

The US cicilian population chooses their leadership yes, however we also have a chance to change leadership that we don't like. 9/11 murdered non Americans as well if you hadn't noticed, including Muslims. What crime did they commit that neccessitated their murders?

They weren't the targets of the attack; just collateral damage.

Your argument fails there as does Bin Ladens.

This isn't my argument and I don't agree with any of it. Bin Laden uses the same logic to justify killing Americans that you used to claim that Japanese civilians 'suffered the consequences of their support.'

 

[Ropey]

And Nagasaki? How many non-combatants were knowingly slaughtered in order to terrorize the government of Japan into granting our demands?

Better Question.

Was Pearl HarboUr wrong?

 

[westwall]

How do you know that? How do you know they weren't just like you and me- ordinary workin' folk trying to get by in the world around them?

Or do you need them to be guilty somehow? To ease your conscience as you justify their deaths?

Because it is well documented.

That everyone who was killed supported the regime and wished death to all Americans?

Please provide your sources.

How do you know they al supported the regime? Also, you first say they're not responsible- then you immediately explain how they, through their support, are responsible and deserved what they got.

Do you understand the difference?

I understand that you can't be honest with yourself about how you feel about this

Actions have consequences.

As bin Laden said in explaining 9/11...

And Bin Ladens attack killed non Americans and Muslims. What crime did they commit that made their murders OK?

As far as Tojo, his support continues to this day! A recent movie "Pride, the Fateful Moment" portrays him as a hero. Below is a partial review of the movie. Read any history dealing with the Japanese home front and it becomes quite clear that he was revered. Also he was not truly a dictator, he was elected to his position (granted the election was highly restricted in who could vote) but the election itself was real.




****THE LEGACY OF THE MAN WHO ORDERED THE PEARL HARBOR ATTACK STILL POLARIZES THE JAPANESE.****

TOKYO - History ranks Hideki Tojo, Japan's wartime prime minister who ordered the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor, with Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini as a prime villains of World War II.

But Tojo came alive on silver screens across Japan yesterday in a movie that depicts the executed war criminal not as a brute who terrorized Asia but as a kindly grandfather who sacrificed his life to absolve Emperor Hirohito of responsibility for World War II.

The movie, titled "Pride, the Fateful Moment," drew sellout crowds to 145 theaters across Japan.

Pre-release publicity prompted protests from China and North Korea, two nations brutalized under Japanese rule. Japan's government distanced itself …


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-58337669.html

 

[westwall]

The US cicilian population chooses their leadership yes, however we also have a chance to change leadership that we don't like. 9/11 murdered non Americans as well if you hadn't noticed, including Muslims. What crime did they commit that neccessitated their murders?

They weren't the targets of the attack; just collateral damage.

Your argument fails there as does Bin Ladens.

This isn't my argument and I don't agree with any of it. Bin Laden uses the same logic to justify killing Americans that you used to claim that Japanese civilians 'suffered the consequences of their support.'

Doesn't matter. You blame the US for murdering your people and then proceed to murder complete innocents. That means you lose the argument because then you're no better than those you attacked and thus lose any moral advantage you may have had, thanks for making that plain for everyone to see.

And if you had only killed Americans your argument would have merit. But as you didn't once again you lose.

 

[Toronado3800]

I love this subject! There is no clear cut answer.

In August of 45 I may have bombed Berlin to be honest. The Japanese had only been the problem in one world war to the point and Berlin would have really gotten Stalin's attention.

***********************
Were the Japanese people guilty.....

My Grandmother grew up in a neighborhood where everyone knew who the Gangsters were. In some regards she was guilty of not turning them in by the time they were killing folks during prohibition. Should she be murdered in a police sweep of the Italian ghettos? Not on purpose but if it happens it happens. She should have resisted the brown coats or the military or whoever instead of just dancing in the streets after the Jewish shops were raided or the military rolled into China.

 

[Kalam]

Doesn't matter. You blame the US for murdering your people and then proceed to murder complete innocents. That means you lose the argument because then you're no better than those you attacked and thus lose any moral advantage you may have had, thanks for making that plain for everyone to see.

And if you had only killed Americans your argument would have merit. But as you didn't once again you lose.

Which innocent people did I murder?

 

[westwall]

Doesn't matter. You blame the US for murdering your people and then proceed to murder complete innocents. That means you lose the argument because then you're no better than those you attacked and thus lose any moral advantage you may have had, thanks for making that plain for everyone to see.

And if you had only killed Americans your argument would have merit. But as you didn't once again you lose.

Which innocent people did I murder?

Pardon me, Bin Laden murdered them and you support him because all Americans are evil.
That is what I meant to write.

 

[Kalam]

and you support him

No I don't. I think you misread my post.