Zone1 Was Eve expelled from Eden, or did she leave with Adam?

[Hafar1014]

So return from outer space, and try to focus on the text.

Does God call it "punishment"?

The story of Adam and Eve serves as a foundational allegory for the birth of human moral consciousness, representing the transition from innocence to ethical responsibility. The prohibition of the forbidden fruit acted as a trial of obedience, testing humanity’s freedom to choose between divine authority and self-determination.
PubMed Central (PMC) (.gov) +3
The Moral Teaching of Man

• Conscience and Sin: The narrative explains that humans have a natural tendency toward good but are born with a propensity to sin, known as the original sin or "animal factor".
• Ethical Selection: It represents the shift from acting on instinct to choosing actions based on moral awareness, allowing humans to distinguish between good and evil.
• Loss of Innocence: Disobedience brought shame, self-consciousness (realizing they were naked), and an end to the harmonious relationship with the Creator, introducing suffering into the world.
  PubMed Central (PMC) (.gov) +5

The Trial for Freedom

• True Choice: God gave Adam free will to choose between obedience and disobedience, showing that genuine love and loyalty to God must be voluntary.
• Consequences of Freedom: Adam and Eve were not robots; they were free-moral agents. Their choice demonstrated that true freedom requires accepting responsibility for the consequences of one's actions.
• The Trial's Purpose: The fall is often interpreted as a "fortunate fall" (felix culpa), as it initiated the necessity of navigating a moral world, ultimately aiming to bring redemption and growth through the exercise of free will.
  

  No. You were insulting my parents because you needed to lash out.

• The story of Adam and Eve serves as a foundational allegory for the birth of human moral consciousness, representing the transition from innocence to ethical responsibility. The prohibition of the forbidden fruit acted as a trial of obedience, testing humanity’s freedom to choose between divine authority and self-determination.
  PubMed Central (PMC) (.gov) +3
  The Moral Teaching of Man
  • Conscience and Sin: The narrative explains that humans have a natural tendency toward good but are born with a propensity to sin, known as the original sin or "animal factor".
  • Ethical Selection: It represents the shift from acting on instinct to choosing actions based on moral awareness, allowing humans to distinguish between good and evil.
  • Loss of Innocence: Disobedience brought shame, self-consciousness (realizing they were naked), and an end to the harmonious relationship with the Creator, introducing suffering into the world.
    PubMed Central (PMC) (.gov) +5
• The Trial for Freedom
  • True Choice: God gave Adam free will to choose between obedience and disobedience, showing that genuine love and loyalty to God must be voluntary.
  • Consequences of Freedom: Adam and Eve were not robots; they were free-moral agents. Their choice demonstrated that true freedom requires accepting responsibility for the consequences of one's actions.
  • The Trial's Purpose: The fall is often interpreted as a "fortunate fall" (felix culpa), as it initiated the necessity of navigating a moral world, ultimately aiming to bring redemption and growth through the exercise of free will.
    BYU Religious Studies Center +4
• The Resulting Human Condition
  • Inner Conflict: The expulsion from Eden symbolizes the difficulty in cultivating the intellect and will, requiring "labor" to manage inner desires just as humans must labor to cultivate the earth.
• BYU Religious Studies Center +4

The Resulting Human Condition

• Inner Conflict: The expulsion from Eden symbolizes the difficulty in cultivating the intellect and will, requiring "labor" to manage inner desires just as humans must labor to cultivate the earth.

 

[rylah]

Itstsabon (Hebrew). The etymology is painful toil, hardship, sorrow.

Would you say God pronouncing "itstsabon" is more like a blessing? More like a punishment? Perhaps more like a light consequence?

Yes that is in fact a blessing, even excitement.

Perhaps God should've asked the pope how to phrase it better...

 

[Meriweather]

Perhaps God should've asked

the pope how to phrase it better...

Why? The account specifies itstsabon (painful toil, hardship, sorrow). That particular word must have been chosen for a reason. Therefore, from a Jewish background does that word signify blessing, punishment, or a simple everyday consequence? I doubt a Catholic Pope studies Hebrew etymology, which is why I am asking for your own insight.

 

[rylah]

Why? The account specifies itstsabon (painful toil, hardship, sorrow). That particular word must have been chosen for a reason. Therefore, from a Jewish background does that word signify blessing, punishment, or a simple everyday consequence? I doubt a Catholic Pope studies Hebrew etymology, which is why I am asking for your own insight.

From the Jewish perspective,
solus feel ashamed with 'free bread',
and humanity should be grateful to Eve.

​

 

[Meriweather]

Yes that is in fact a blessing, even excitement.

The root of itstsabon is atsab (to hurt, pain, or grieve). Biblically, it is only used in Genesis 3. I cannot find a source that says either the word or its root is used to signify blessing or excitement in other Hebrew books/scrolls. Perhaps you can provide that source for us?

 

[rylah]

The root of itstsabon is atsab (to hurt, pain, or grieve). Biblically, it is only used in Genesis 3. I cannot find a source that says either the word or its root is used to signify blessing or excitement in other Hebrew books/scrolls. Perhaps you can provide that source for us?

That's the same root as 'design'
and 'stimulation'

עצב - לעצב

 

[Meriweather]

From the Jewish perspective,
solus feel ashamed with 'free bread',
and humanity should be grateful to Eve.

No one can hold a discussion with a video, so it is a waste of time to present one to me. Are you saying the point of Eve eating the fruit is that she wanted Adam, herself, and their descendants to be forced to work for all they ate--that her desire was to bestow this blessing upon them?

 

[Meriweather]

That's the same root as 'design'
and 'stimulation'

עצב - לעצב

Yes, like in the carving/designing of an idol--which also signifies wounding one's heart. Modern usage of the word may differ.

 

[rylah]

No one can hold a discussion with a video, so it is a waste of time to present one to me. Are you saying the point of Eve eating the fruit is that she wanted Adam, herself, and their descendants to be forced to work for all they ate--that her desire was to bestow this blessing upon them?

Eve chose for humanity the option to be righteous.
And the work in that context is not forced,
but the opportunity desired by God.

Stop blaming Eve and be grateful, that's all.

 

[Meriweather]

Eve chose for humanity the option to be righteous.
And the work in that context is not forced,
but the opportunity desired by God.

Stop blaming Eve and be grateful, that's all.

First, I am not blaming Eve, so remove that misconception from your own conclusion/delusion and listen.

God saw all that he created was good. That certainly included Adam and Eve who he created with free will. It also includes the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that he placed in the Garden with Adam and Eve. God told them not eat of it or they would die--perhaps who they were presently would die, or who they were were meant to be. I don't know. It could be as simple as one day they would die--as it does not seem to signify immediate death.

In any case, Eve saw the fruit as good, which should be a surprise to no one as God saw the tree of knowledge of good and evil as good--but it wasn't given to them to eat at that time. Either the fruit was still immature (the thought of some Jewish rabbis) or Adam and Eve were still too immature to take in all that it was meant to provide.

When Eve looked at the fruit, a choice came before her: She could choose obedience to God--or, she could do it her own way-- what she decided was best. She chose to eat, and brought down upon them unknown consequences. Consider this: If Eve had known how eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil without waiting for permission would bring about the results it did, would she have made the choice she did? Would she had done it "my way" (as the song goes), or would she have chosen God's way? (Either way, free will.)

Disobedience did not change God--and his plans for mankind did not change. God brings good out of evil because, quite simply, that is who God is. God is unchanging. Take a look at mankind. Are we unchanging? Or, can we manage to flip-flop over time or even from day-to-day? Isn't it a fact we can choose one way one day, and then change the next?

Here is something on which to reflect: Is it best to be unchanging? Or is it better to be changing?

In the meantime, one of the many things we can learn from Adam and Eve's story is whether we will choose to do something God's way--or are we more of the mind, "I'll do it my way."