Vietnam War was unwinnable

[harmonica]

..we won most of the battles--and that crosschecks JFK's quote =THEY had to win it--the US could not

???? Fro the second time, I have never replied to a quote you made from JFK, I do not see that quote at all. You have no idea who said what in your own OP.

To use your words. You are babbling.

.....and---and --the BIG key to what JFK said---he said it long BEFORE we sent large units over there--BEFORE we got massively involved--BEFORE TET/etc

 

[elektra]

AND McNamara!!!!!!! JFK and McNamara!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.'''''''' Convinced that the war was unwinnable,'''''''''''

McNamara Recalls, and Regrets, Vietnam (Published 1995)

www.nytimes.com

..and you STILL deny it???????!!!!!!!!!
BOOOOM BABY

Again, you prove that all you have is your opinion that you constantly google search. You just linked to an article we can not even read because it is blocked by a demand to pay to see.

Like my very first comment stated. You do not know a thing about what you are talking about. You have yet to engage. You search your opinion, link, and print your idiotic hahahahaha.

All you have done is proven you are low intelligence. Google searching your opinion and not even reading/following the link. Just linking if the description seems to agree with your opinion.

A google search will result in links to thousands of opinions. That is all you have proved.

 

[9thIDdoc]

f the government had sent in the military in a completely unrestricted, full scale war on North Korea, we could have easily flattened and defeated North Korea in a matter of... maybe a month.

That is what Gen MacArthur said.
In a matter of about a month, his forces swept north of the 39 th parallel and chased the N Koreans all the way to the Yalu River.

That is when the Chinese forces came in and swarmed our unsuspecting forces and drove us back south of the 39th parallel. Ended up killing 50,000 American forces.

We wanted to avoid the same mistake in Vietnam

Which is only because they retreated. If you follow up on what happened after this, every time the UN forces stood their ground, and fought, they slaughtered the Chinese.

Especially the Chinese of army of the 1950s, was in fact a peasant army. They were not hardly trained at all.

Damn boy, are you ever ignorant of history.

The Chinese forces overwhelmed us. We ran for our lives

For a while till MacArther out flanked the assholes and was kicking their asses right back across the border until a democommie asshole of a president pulled him up short and fired him.
If we had let Patton have his way the USSR wouldn't have existed for long and if we'd let Mcarthur have his way Red China would have been a long forgotten footnote by now too. Both were stopped by a democommie asshole excuse for a president, Truman who was afraid of his own shadow.

..see the map above--China kicked OUR a$$es

Dumbass they sneak attacked then Mcarthur landed at Inchon and put the run on the little bastards right back across the border where they came from and if Mcarthur had had his way he'd have run the little bastards all the way to Pieking as it was called then. You're obviously a real dumbass when it comes to history. I suppose in your idiotic feeble mind the South won the civil war because they won most of the battles at the beginning. BTW we never lost a single battle in Vietnam so we must have won that one too, you hopeless dumbass.

..we couldn't even beat the Chinese in Korea--how do you think the US could go all over China!!!!!!????
hahahahahahahah

We fought the Chinese in Korea until they broke and ran screaming and crying back over the border leaving massive piles of dead Chinese behind. History. Sounds like a win to me.

 

[9thIDdoc]

..we won most of the battles--and that crosschecks JFK's quote =THEY had to win it--the US could not

???? Fro the second time, I have never replied to a quote you made from JFK, I do not see that quote at all. You have no idea who said what in your own OP.

To use your words. You are babbling.

.....and---and --the BIG key to what JFK said---he said it long BEFORE we sent large units over there--BEFORE we got massively involved--BEFORE TET/etc

JFK said nothing that pertains to the topic at hand.

 

[elektra]

.....and---and --the BIG key to what JFK said---he said it long BEFORE we sent large units over there--BEFORE we got massively involved--BEFORE TET/etc

Let me quote your link again, that you provided about Korea. We were going back and forth on Korea until you figured out I was quoting your link that shows you are wrong. Your link proves you wrong. Let that sink into your skull.

UNC air strikes also succeeded in crippling the CPVFís logistical support of its combat formations. During the 4th offensive, the UNC had reduced the CPVFís material re-supply by 60-70 percent. By April 1951, the CPVF supply lines, which had achieved a length of 300-400 kilometers, suffered continual disruption and CPVF engineers were unable to keep the Yalu River bridges operational due to UNC air strikes. UNC air raids also caused CPVF supply units to lose contact with the combat formations and further delayed the delivery of much-needed supplies. Though the Chinese expanded their air forces in response, they were unable to project this air power to the forward battle areas. The same UNC air strikes, which impeded the re-supply of CPVF combat formations, rendered the Chinese incapable of supplying fuel and ammunition to forward air bases in quantities sufficient to support forward basing of their fighter aircraft. As a result, they were forced to remain in the rear, where they could not provide effective air cover

 

[elektra]

..we couldn't even beat the Chinese in Korea--how do you think the US could go all over China!!!!!!????
hahahahahahahah

From harmonica's link. That is, from the link that harmonica posted thinking it showed us losing to china in korea.

" The same UNC air strikes, which impeded the re-supply of CPVF combat formations, rendered the Chinese incapable of supplying fuel and ammunition to forward air bases in quantities sufficient to support forward basing of their fighter aircraft. As a result, they were forced to remain in the rear, where they could not provide effective air cover.229Reduced supply had a concomitant effect on combat operations. Not only did CPVF units find it impossible to sustain their offensive operations without rations, but they also suffered grievous casualties due to exposure to the elements. The effects of the CPVFís inability to provide adequate winter clothing reached critical proportions during the 3rd offensive. Cold weather injuries rendered the entire Chinese 586th Infantry Regiment (196th Infantry Division) 228 Zhang, Maoís Military Romanticism, p. 130. 229 Xiaobing Li, Maoís Generals Remember, pp. 24, 124-125.

79 combat ineffective. The 116th Infantry Division suffered over 2,000 casualties to exposure. Many other regiments and battalions also reported they were combat ineffective and some divisions reported that the extreme cold had reduced them to 50 percent strength"

 

[LuckyDuck]

..we are talking REALITY--not nuking anyone....not invading the north like the Russians and US did to Germany --that wasn't going to happen--even if they did invade the North, they couldn't stay there forever.....
..first--the French lost--and after we gave them MILLIONS$ and with all their '''advantages'' ....this should've been a lesson
......a big problem was the Vietnamese government [ and military ] = for a long time it was corrupt/unstable/etc = they had 3 heads of state changes in less than 2 years--one with a MURDER..with many attempted coups before and after......that mess was still there after Thieu took over
...N Vietnam did not have to even beat the US ......
.......the US could cut off Korea because it was peninsula--where as NV could bring troops/etc to the South over land
.

Two problems with that concept.
1. We had completely destroyed the North Vietnam's guerilla units called, Viet Cong. That left only the NVA army to finish off.
2. Technically we weren't losing the war on the ground in Vietnam. We made the mistake of allowing complete and unrestricted access to the media on the battlefield (something we didn't repeat in subsequent conflicts). This brought the horror of war into the living rooms of millions of American families, with the result being a massive public resistance to further conflict in the war. Those public pressures, forced the administration to give in to that massive pressure and leave Vietnam to its own fate.
Having said all that, the one thing that was despicable, was how we got into the war in the first place. It was based upon a lie. That said, once we were actually committed to the war, we should have done two things, not giving the media unrestricted access to filming and letting the military go full out and not allow the civilian administration to pick and choose the targets. It essentially put handcuffs on how the military could operate. Those same idiotic restrictions were done via the Obama administration.

..it would not have mattered if the military had no restrictions - unwinnable
.

Well, we will agree to disagree on this. That's all.

 

[elektra]

..we couldn't even beat the Chinese in Korea--how do you think the US could go all over China!!!!!!????
hahahahahahahah

From your link harmonica

Lack of sufficient ammunition further exacerbated the CPVFís inferiority in firepower and directly affected the outcome of its offensives by greatly reducing its abilities to annihilate enemy formations. Though the Chinese proved highly adept at infiltrating and isolating UNC units, they were rarely able to eliminate them.231 This deficiency manifests itself again and again throughout the Chinese 3rd, 4th and 5th offensives.

 

[LuckyDuck]

..we are talking REALITY--not nuking anyone....not invading the north like the Russians and US did to Germany --that wasn't going to happen--even if they did invade the North, they couldn't stay there forever.....
..first--the French lost--and after we gave them MILLIONS$ and with all their '''advantages'' ....this should've been a lesson
......a big problem was the Vietnamese government [ and military ] = for a long time it was corrupt/unstable/etc = they had 3 heads of state changes in less than 2 years--one with a MURDER..with many attempted coups before and after......that mess was still there after Thieu took over
...N Vietnam did not have to even beat the US ......
.......the US could cut off Korea because it was peninsula--where as NV could bring troops/etc to the South over land
.

Two problems with that concept.
1. We had completely destroyed the North Vietnam's guerilla units called, Viet Cong. That left only the NVA army to finish off.
2. Technically we weren't losing the war on the ground in Vietnam. We made the mistake of allowing complete and unrestricted access to the media on the battlefield (something we didn't repeat in subsequent conflicts). This brought the horror of war into the living rooms of millions of American families, with the result being a massive public resistance to further conflict in the war. Those public pressures, forced the administration to give in to that massive pressure and leave Vietnam to its own fate.
Having said all that, the one thing that was despicable, was how we got into the war in the first place. It was based upon a lie. That said, once we were actually committed to the war, we should have done two things, not giving the media unrestricted access to filming and letting the military go full out and not allow the civilian administration to pick and choose the targets. It essentially put handcuffs on how the military could operate. Those same idiotic restrictions were done via the Obama administration.

what lie said by who?

President Johnson, claimed that the North Vietnam military attacked the U.S.S. Maddox, which through an eventual investigation, was proven wrong.

 

[elektra]

..we couldn't even beat the Chinese in Korea--how do you think the US could go all over China!!!!!!????
hahahahahahahah

Again from you link,

These deficiencies were the direct result of Maoís exaggeration of CPVF and NKPA abilities. Likewise, he grossly under estimated the abilities of the UNC. Though Peng and his subordinate commanders quickly developed a healthy respect for the UNC forces opposing them, Mao refused to acknowledge the CPVFís difficulties and continued to urge them on. The result was an ever-increasing reduction in the combat capabilities of the CPVF at a time when China needed these qualities most. The UNCís expanding forces and capabilities now forced China to the negotiating table.

 

[LuckyDuck]

We made the mistake of allowing complete and unrestricted access to the media on the battlefield (something we didn't repeat in subsequent conflicts). This brought the horror of war into the living rooms of millions of American families, with the result being a massive public resistance to further conflict in the war. Those public pressures, forced the administration to give in to that massive pressure and leave Vietnam to its own fate.

You think the public would not have noticed 60,000 dead bodies without the media telling them?

You think the public never would have asked WTF are we doing there?


The problem is that the media stopped parroting the propaganda the military was feeding them

The war violence on the publics televisions was a major contributor and had that not been happening, it's not that thousands of dead troops would have been missed, only that the unity in the U.S. against the war would have been fractured.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Both Korea and Vietnam showed the Soviet Union and Chinese we weren't going to roll over for them turning every country in Asia and possibly elsewhere COMMUNIST. Those proxy wars ultimately helped us to win the Cold War and bankrupt the USSR. Yes, they could have been waged better but our politicians feared a direct war with the super powers if we did win more decisive POLITICAL victories. We kicked the enemies ass in both wars, especially Vietnam. The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong NEVER won a major engagement including Tet.

Oh good god, you are really bringing up the Domino Theory
The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong NEVER won a major engagement including Tet yet they were the ones that are in control now.

Only because our lame-ass government of the time allowed it to be so.

Only because our lame assed government got us involved in a war that we had no business being in

So now you're an expert in international relations? Some folks feel the Cold War was worth winning.

you fked up there--again........
..we lost Cambodia, Vietnam, AND Laos to communism AND Cuba---AND China....guess what?? take a guess.......................................................................................the US is OK!!!..we are still here!!!!!!!!!!!!
...if anything, the Vietnam war not only wasted lives but a lot of $$$ that could've been spent in the US = strengthening the US.....Vietnam made the US less strong:
-many countries saw the UNJUSTIFIED destruction and deaths we caused
-the US was seen as WEAK/vulnerable because we couldn't win/lost

Get a clue, most other people understand the concept that you cannot lose what you never had.
We lost far more money and lives over the years trying to hold in place rather than going ahead and winning in a few weeks.
The countries of the world saw the UNJUSTIFIED death and destruction cause by Communist aggression and greed.
The US was seen to be a treacherous ally and rightly so.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Nobody can be as stupid as you yet here you are literally, posting links to counter the link you provided.
hahahahhahahahahahaha

All my quotes come from your link. I have not posted a link. I just quote from what you provide to show that you have not read your link. To show that you are no smarter than your google search. That you are so lazy, you do not read what you link to.

..we won most of the battles--and that crosschecks JFK's quote =THEY had to win it--the US could not

Only because the US never tried.

 

[9thIDdoc]

..we won most of the battles--and that crosschecks JFK's quote =THEY had to win it--the US could not

???? Fro the second time, I have never replied to a quote you made from JFK, I do not see that quote at all. You have no idea who said what in your own OP.

To use your words. You are babbling.

.........JFK said the South Vietnamese had to win the war--the US could not win it for them

And that was an opinion that was probably true at that time. He did NOT say the war was unwinable. In '63 we were advising; not fighting a war. Even when we were fighting later on we were not fighting to win. The politicians didn't allow us to do that and that certainly doesn't mean we couldn't have had we been allow to try. Nor does it mean the South couldn't have won had we kept our promises to them.
It should also be remembered that while S. Vietnam was a drain on the US economy N. Vietnam was a drain on the economies of the USSR and Communist China. Which may have proved decisive in the collapse of the USSR and the favorable end of the cold war.

 

[rightwinger]

Giap himself admitted they were a spent force after the attack. But they won the PR war, which is the real reason why America lost.

They wore us out, just like they did the French.

Americans got tired of hearing......Just give us 100,000 more men and we will be home by Christmas......year after year after year.

there is truth in what you say but we screwed the french over. We either never should of supported the french or once committed we should of given 100%.

France created the problem, then dumped it on us.

 

[elektra]

AND McNamara!!!!!!! JFK and McNamara!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.'''''''' Convinced that the war was unwinnable,'''''''''''

McNamara Recalls, and Regrets, Vietnam (Published 1995)

www.nytimes.com

..and you STILL deny it???????!!!!!!!!!
BOOOOM BABY

Another link you have not read. The Vietnam war is not the descriptive of a google search. If you care to actually use a link, you should quote the link with commentary. Or provide enough of a quote that the quote itself answers a premise you put forth.

I do not see that you have done that even once throughout your thread.

 

[rightwinger]

Both Korea and Vietnam showed the Soviet Union and Chinese we weren't going to roll over for them turning every country in Asia and possibly elsewhere COMMUNIST. Those proxy wars ultimately helped us to win the Cold War and bankrupt the USSR. Yes, they could have been waged better but our politicians feared a direct war with the super powers if we did win more decisive POLITICAL victories. We kicked the enemies ass in both wars, especially Vietnam. The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong NEVER won a major engagement including Tet.

Oh good god, you are really bringing up the Domino Theory
The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong NEVER won a major engagement including Tet yet they were the ones that are in control now.

Only because our lame-ass government of the time allowed it to be so.

Only because our lame assed government got us involved in a war that we had no business being in

So now you're an expert in international relations? Some folks feel the Cold War was worth winning.

We turned a Civil War in Vietnam into a Cold War against Communism.

Beating Communism regardless of the cost was not warranted.
The fear of Communism was not worth 2 million lives.

And with 45 years of a Communist Vietnam, we got to see that it was not worth winning

 

[elektra]

France created the problem, then dumped it on us.

Did France create the problem? Sadly, after World War II the only way France maintained forces in Indochina was through our funding. Our supplying of Military equipment. It seems in that sense we created the problem. Further, we had a deal with France that nobody would negotiate a truce or ceasefire or the end of either the Korean War or the Vietnam War separately. We did just that, negotiated the end of the Korean war while France was fighting Vietnam. That allowed the Chinese to divert all their forces to Dien Bien Phu, outnumbering, surrounding, and forcing the surrender of the French. The French relied on us for supplies. The French did not have an Air Force. What they did have we gave them. They did not have the airplanes to resupply. They were under siege. We should of gave the French all the supplies they needed. We should of gave them every airplane at our disposal. We betrayed our ally. The French, because we withdrew support they had grown to depend on, had to negotiate a surrender. While politicians bickered and pleaded, soldiers were dying on the ground.

Eisenhower, I have no respect for him.

 

[Andylusion]

Both Korea and Vietnam showed the Soviet Union and Chinese we weren't going to roll over for them turning every country in Asia and possibly elsewhere COMMUNIST. Those proxy wars ultimately helped us to win the Cold War and bankrupt the USSR. Yes, they could have been waged better but our politicians feared a direct war with the super powers if we did win more decisive POLITICAL victories. We kicked the enemies ass in both wars, especially Vietnam. The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong NEVER won a major engagement including Tet.

Oh good god, you are really bringing up the Domino Theory
The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong NEVER won a major engagement including Tet yet they were the ones that are in control now.

Only because our lame-ass government of the time allowed it to be so.

Only because our lame assed government got us involved in a war that we had no business being in

So now you're an expert in international relations? Some folks feel the Cold War was worth winning.

We turned a Civil War in Vietnam into a Cold War against Communism.

Beating Communism regardless of the cost was not warranted.
The fear of Communism was not worth 2 million lives.

And with 45 years of a Communist Vietnam, we got to see that it was not worth winning

That's debatable. If you seriously don't care about mass slaughter of people, then you are right.

The communists slaughtered, and starved, millions of people. We can see today the difference between North and South Korea. There could have been a free, prosperous South Vietnam today.

But if you are left-winger, and love watching people killed because they have eye glasses, and don't care at all about freedom....

Then you are right, there was no value to the Vietnamese, and letting them die, so that you yourself never have to do anything difficult, would have been the right options for a self-centered and spoiled American brat.

 

[9thIDdoc]