Untied airlines going full woke like delta

[Lysistrata]

They'd never get into a cockpit if they couldn't pass the training, but as I stated, just because you passed the training doesn't make you the best pilot. They need a few years as a co-pilot, some years as a pilot, experiencing all kinds of weather conditions like high wind, rain, snow. Then if they have the experience and work history, then go to a major airline like United. This is why major airlines give first priority to military pilots. But what United is doing now is going to pass on those military pilots so they can get a woman or minority instead.

You forget that United announced that it intended to hire 5,000 pilots, so there would be 2,500 other hires, and many ex-military, that do not necessarily meet the description of female and/or non-white. These could very well include white male military pilots, so what is the basis for your assertion that United is going to pass on military pilots? Moreover, trained military pilots now include female/non-white pilots who would have the experience and work history that you refer to.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You forget that United announced that it intended to hire 5,000 pilots, so there would be 2,500 other hires, and many ex-military, that do not necessarily meet the description of female and/or non-white. These could very well include white male military pilots, so what is the basis for your assertion that United is going to pass on military pilots? Moreover, trained military pilots now include female/non-white pilots who would have the experience and work history that you refer to.

The bottom line is they need to focus on the best pilots regardless of race or gender.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Women and non-whites have been systematically excluded from aviation and their accomplishments left unrecognized because of open race-based and gender-based bigotry. There is no basis for any conclusion that race or sex plays any role in ability. Newsvine Maryam and Old Lady have done a wonderful job of explaining the history of non-whites and women in aviation, so I will just add a bit more about the treatment by the military of women in aviation:

Women in the United States Army

Women in the Air Foce

Thanks for confirming that standards must be lowered for women.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

It's been that way in the Unites States since it's inception and while it's now no longer lawful on paper at least since 1964, it still occurs.

Black people have been piloting the public around since 1964. As far as I know, no catastrophes. So where are all of these "unqualified, affirmative action, not hired on merit, guaranteed to kill everyone pilots" and the subsequent destruction?

Who's talking about unqualified? Again, using my own line of work, there are terrible tractor-trailer drivers, average tractor-trailer drivers, and excellent tractor-trailer drivers. What do they all have in common? They are all qualified to operate a tractor-trailer. They all went to school or had on the job training. With the exception of foreigners, they all had to pass the written and road exams. If you have no experience or a questionable driving record, you work for lower quality companies. If you have an outstanding driving record, you get offers from great employers with major carriers like FedEx, Conway, UPS.

You cannot get a great job with little or questionable experience or record. You need at a minimum of 2 years experience with an excellent record. Major carriers are not waiting at the tractor-trailer school door to pick drivers based on race or gender. Only the lower paying employers are. The major carriers only hire drivers with the best history.

So what United is doing is the exact opposite of my comparisons here. They are at the flight school door waiting to get women and minorities instead of tenured airline pilots with the most experience and employment history. It's a bad and dangerous move.

Oh geez, two things then.

Who's talking about unqualified?

Unqualified is exactly what is always heard when people are complaining about "affirmative action" hires. That qualified whites are being passed over for alleged lesser qualified or unqualified blacks or other minorities. But you've since have clarified that you're speaking of experienced candidates versus fresh out of college candidates who have not yet obtained any experience flying for a commercial airline.

You cannot get a great job with little or questionable experience or record. You need at a minimum of 2 years experience with an excellent record. Major carriers are not waiting at the tractor-trailer school door to pick drivers based on race or gender. Only the lower paying employers are. The major carriers only hire drivers with the best history.

So what United is doing is the exact opposite of my comparisons here. They are at the flight school door waiting to get women and minorities instead of tenured airline pilots with the most experience and employment history. It's a bad and dangerous move.

Ray that's what they do, they recruit from the universities and colleges that produce pilots as well as hire military pilots. This is nothing new and there have been no disasters as a result of it. Boeing has killed more people lately by screwing with the aerodynamics of the 737-MAX in order to squeeze more revenue out of each flight than any non-white pilots have.

The process is pretty much the same for anyone who wants to be an airline pilot. You do your training/get your degree, you obtain your pilot licenses and ratings, you log the required number of flight hours and then you can apply for a job somewhere that would allow you to gain the number of hours needed to apply with the airlines and get an ATP license. This is for those individuals who have no military training. Flying lessons and flight time needed to achieve the necessary number of hours to obtain an ATP license is expensive for the average person irrespective of race however this is one of the ways an airline can ensure that more women and minorities can achieve their dream of becoming commercial airlines pilots. If they sponsor their training and/or guarantee them a position upon completion, provide money for scholarships, create outreach programs with mentors and support for kids who want to go into this field, all of that would help. Yes it's targeted and there are a few private programs that I know of already that do this but the airlines have the money and incentive to sponsor future pilots this way. It doesn't even have to be exclusively for women and minorities, it could also be need based.

The thing you're forgetting is all of the white pilots who didn't come from the military started out with no airline experience too, yet no one is crying that their flying abilities are putting people in danger.

Another thing, perhaps the airlines would prefer to hire someone just starting out that they can train and hire at a beginning wage and get a good 40 years out of before they have to retire, than hiring an experienced pilot who is closer to retirement age and maybe only get 10 - 15 years out of him at a much higher salary.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Women and non-whites have been systematically excluded from aviation and their accomplishments left unrecognized because of open race-based and gender-based bigotry. There is no basis for any conclusion that race or sex plays any role in ability. Newsvine Maryam and Old Lady have done a wonderful job of explaining the history of non-whites and women in aviation, so I will just add a bit more about the treatment by the military of women in aviation:

Women in the United States Army

Women in the Air Foce

Thank you Lysistrata! I never knew about these women:

Cochran established the Women's Flying Training Detachment, or WFTD, at Howard Hughes Airport in Houston, Texas on Nov. 16, 1942, with an initial class of 25 women who were required to have 200 hours flying time and a commercial license.​

​

In addition to ferrying, testing and delivering planes for repair, the WFTD also performed check flights, put flying time on new engines, towed targets for anti-aircraft gunnery practice, flew searchlight tracking missions, and instructed male pilot cadets.​

​

 

[Lysistrata]

Women and non-whites have been systematically excluded from aviation and their accomplishments left unrecognized because of open race-based and gender-based bigotry. There is no basis for any conclusion that race or sex plays any role in ability. Newsvine Maryam and Old Lady have done a wonderful job of explaining the history of non-whites and women in aviation, so I will just add a bit more about the treatment by the military of women in aviation:

Women in the United States Army

Women in the Air Foce

Thanks for confirming that standards must be lowered for women.

I never did. Also, it would be idiotic to do so. BTW: what is your explanation for the historic mistreatment of women and non-whites in military aviation? We have posted links detailing the official denial of these people's service and accomplishments. So many of them waited decades for the recognition and honors due them. Identity politics seem to have been in play for a very long time.

Can anyone come up with any statistics as to who is successful and who wipes out? Are any kept by race and sex? What is the failure rate for white guys? What is the failure rate of women? What is the failure rate of non-whites of both sexes?

 

[Weatherman2020]

It's been that way in the Unites States since it's inception and while it's now no longer lawful on paper at least since 1964, it still occurs.

Black people have been piloting the public around since 1964. As far as I know, no catastrophes. So where are all of these "unqualified, affirmative action, not hired on merit, guaranteed to kill everyone pilots" and the subsequent destruction?

Who's talking about unqualified? Again, using my own line of work, there are terrible tractor-trailer drivers, average tractor-trailer drivers, and excellent tractor-trailer drivers. What do they all have in common? They are all qualified to operate a tractor-trailer. They all went to school or had on the job training. With the exception of foreigners, they all had to pass the written and road exams. If you have no experience or a questionable driving record, you work for lower quality companies. If you have an outstanding driving record, you get offers from great employers with major carriers like FedEx, Conway, UPS.

You cannot get a great job with little or questionable experience or record. You need at a minimum of 2 years experience with an excellent record. Major carriers are not waiting at the tractor-trailer school door to pick drivers based on race or gender. Only the lower paying employers are. The major carriers only hire drivers with the best history.

So what United is doing is the exact opposite of my comparisons here. They are at the flight school door waiting to get women and minorities instead of tenured airline pilots with the most experience and employment history. It's a bad and dangerous move.

Oh geez, two things then.

Who's talking about unqualified?

Unqualified is exactly what is always heard when people are complaining about "affirmative action" hires. That qualified whites are being passed over for alleged lesser qualified or unqualified blacks or other minorities. But you've since have clarified that you're speaking of experienced candidates versus fresh out of college candidates who have not yet obtained any experience flying for a commercial airline.

You cannot get a great job with little or questionable experience or record. You need at a minimum of 2 years experience with an excellent record. Major carriers are not waiting at the tractor-trailer school door to pick drivers based on race or gender. Only the lower paying employers are. The major carriers only hire drivers with the best history.

So what United is doing is the exact opposite of my comparisons here. They are at the flight school door waiting to get women and minorities instead of tenured airline pilots with the most experience and employment history. It's a bad and dangerous move.

Ray that's what they do, they recruit from the universities and colleges that produce pilots as well as hire military pilots. This is nothing new and there have been no disasters as a result of it. Boeing has killed more people lately by screwing with the aerodynamics of the 737-MAX in order to squeeze more revenue out of each flight than any non-white pilots have.

The process is pretty much the same for anyone who wants to be an airline pilot. You do your training/get your degree, you obtain your pilot licenses and ratings, you log the required number of flight hours and then you can apply for a job somewhere that would allow you to gain the number of hours needed to apply with the airlines and get an ATP license. This is for those individuals who have no military training. Flying lessons and flight time needed to achieve the necessary number of hours to obtain an ATP license is expensive for the average person irrespective of race however this is one of the ways an airline can ensure that more women and minorities can achieve their dream of becoming commercial airlines pilots. If they sponsor their training and/or guarantee them a position upon completion, provide money for scholarships, create outreach programs with mentors and support for kids who want to go into this field, all of that would help. Yes it's targeted and there are a few private programs that I know of already that do this but the airlines have the money and incentive to sponsor future pilots this way. It doesn't even have to be exclusively for women and minorities, it could also be need based.

The thing you're forgetting is all of the white pilots who didn't come from the military started out with no airline experience too, yet no one is crying that their flying abilities are putting people in danger.

Another thing, perhaps the airlines would prefer to hire someone just starting out that they can train and hire at a beginning wage and get a good 40 years out of before they have to retire, than hiring an experienced pilot who is closer to retirement age and maybe only get 10 - 15 years out of him at a much higher salary.

Leftards always look and judge by skin color.
Because you’re racist vermin.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Women and non-whites have been systematically excluded from aviation and their accomplishments left unrecognized because of open race-based and gender-based bigotry. There is no basis for any conclusion that race or sex plays any role in ability. Newsvine Maryam and Old Lady have done a wonderful job of explaining the history of non-whites and women in aviation, so I will just add a bit more about the treatment by the military of women in aviation:

Women in the United States Army

Women in the Air Foce

Thanks for confirming that standards must be lowered for women.

I never did.

You’re too stupid to understand the bullshit you parrot then.

 

[Lysistrata]

Women and non-whites have been systematically excluded from aviation and their accomplishments left unrecognized because of open race-based and gender-based bigotry. There is no basis for any conclusion that race or sex plays any role in ability. Newsvine Maryam and Old Lady have done a wonderful job of explaining the history of non-whites and women in aviation, so I will just add a bit more about the treatment by the military of women in aviation:

Women in the United States Army

Women in the Air Foce

Thanks for confirming that standards must be lowered for women.

I never did.

You’re too stupid to understand the bullshit you parrot then.

So you can't provide any specifics to back up your claims, and answer only with personal insults instead of explaining what it is that I don't "understand" and why you think that I "parrot" some "bullshit." Duly noted. History is history, a fact of which you seem quite ignorant. Denying reality won't get you anywhere.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Unqualified is exactly what is always heard when people are complaining about "affirmative action" hires. That qualified whites are being passed over for alleged lesser qualified or unqualified blacks or other minorities. But you've since have clarified that you're speaking of experienced candidates versus fresh out of college candidates who have not yet obtained any experience flying for a commercial airline.

There is no qualified and less qualified. There is more experienced pilots and less experienced pilots. All of them have to be qualified, but like I said, just because you're qualified doesn't mean you are the best choice. Then work history has to be part if it as well. Like doctors, bricklayers, electricians, mechanics, there are those who have a very good history at their job and those who don't. There are those who seldom make mistakes and some who constantly make them.

Ray that's what they do, they recruit from the universities and colleges that produce pilots as well as hire military pilots. This is nothing new and there have been no disasters as a result of it. Boeing has killed more people lately by screwing with the aerodynamics of the 737-MAX in order to squeeze more revenue out of each flight than any non-white pilots have.

The process is pretty much the same for anyone who wants to be an airline pilot. You do your training/get your degree, you obtain your pilot licenses and ratings, you log the required number of flight hours and then you can apply for a job somewhere that would allow you to gain the number of hours needed to apply with the airlines and get an ATP license. This is for those individuals who have no military training. Flying lessons and flight time needed to achieve the necessary number of hours to obtain an ATP license is expensive for the average person irrespective of race however this is one of the ways an airline can ensure that more women and minorities can achieve their dream of becoming commercial airlines pilots. If they sponsor their training and/or guarantee them a position upon completion, provide money for scholarships, create outreach programs with mentors and support for kids who want to go into this field, all of that would help. Yes it's targeted and there are a few private programs that I know of already that do this but the airlines have the money and incentive to sponsor future pilots this way. It doesn't even have to be exclusively for women and minorities, it could also be need based.

The thing you're forgetting is all of the white pilots who didn't come from the military started out with no airline experience too, yet no one is crying that their flying abilities are putting people in danger.

Another thing, perhaps the airlines would prefer to hire someone just starting out that they can train and hire at a beginning wage and get a good 40 years out of before they have to retire, than hiring an experienced pilot who is closer to retirement age and maybe only get 10 - 15 years out of him at a much higher salary.

I'm sure when talking about whites, the better and more experienced white pilots got the best jobs. Now if they can't get somebody with military experience or any experience at all, then in desperation they hire a rookie out of school.

What I'm saying here is that in order to get the quotas United is talking about, they have to take rookies fresh out of school over very experienced white airline pilots.

In my line of work there were some women drivers. Most of them were terrible. Some were great and one of them worked for the last company I was employed by. I'd put her against any male backing in a trailer into close quarters. But the truth of the matter is most couldn't back in a trailer if they had 200 feet of clearance in front of them. Drive straight? Yes that they could do.

I'm sure rookie pilots will get you to your destination safely in favorable weather. But where the experience comes in is when there is bad weather or something goes wrong with the plane and the pilot has to take emergency actions to try and land safely.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I'm sure when talking about whites, the better and more experienced white pilots got the best jobs. Now if they can't get somebody with military experience or any experience at all, then in desperation they hire a rookie out of school.

You are patently wrong on both counts. The Tuskegee airmen were both qualified and experienced with proven military honors yet white racism prevented them from being hired not just by the airlines but as pilots flying in other venues as well. Are you going to try to tell me that these men were not as qualified and experienced as the white pilots? The guys doing the bombing runs during WWII began to specifically ask for them as escorts because they had such a stellar record however they had no idea they were black, they just wanted to be protected by the "Red Tails", the pilots whose loss record was half that of the white pilots.

So let me ask you something since you've obviously not thought this through. Where are all of these experienced white pilots that are losing out on jobs because United wants to hire more women and minorities? Because if they are as qualified and experienced as you are requiring, they're not looking for work, they already employed.

I really am just baffled at why you think that hiring someone who is coming out of college with a degree, 250 hours of flight time and a commercial pilot license with an instrument and multi-engine rating is inherently dangerous. The airline has their own training programs and the new pilots are paired with an experienced pilot who will ensure that they are competent and if not that management knows about it. There is nothing unusual about this and they have been doing things this way for as long as I can remember.

I found this particular conversation very interesting. It's a question posed by a high schooler who is trying to figure out which school to attend in order to achieve his goal of becoming an airline pilot. The questions are answered by two current airline transport pilots (commercial airline pilots):
ATP vs Embry Riddle

 

[Flash]

Who in the hell would be stupid enough to fly on an airline piloted by dumbass affirmative action shitheads?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Unqualified is exactly what is always heard when people are complaining about "affirmative action" hires. That qualified whites are being passed over for alleged lesser qualified or unqualified blacks or other minorities. But you've since have clarified that you're speaking of experienced candidates versus fresh out of college candidates who have not yet obtained any experience flying for a commercial airline.

There is no qualified and less qualified. There is more experienced pilots and less experienced pilots. All of them have to be qualified, but like I said, just because you're qualified doesn't mean you are the best choice. Then work history has to be part if it as well. Like doctors, bricklayers, electricians, mechanics, there are those who have a very good history at their job and those who don't. There are those who seldom make mistakes and some who constantly make them.

Ray that's what they do, they recruit from the universities and colleges that produce pilots as well as hire military pilots. This is nothing new and there have been no disasters as a result of it. Boeing has killed more people lately by screwing with the aerodynamics of the 737-MAX in order to squeeze more revenue out of each flight than any non-white pilots have.

The process is pretty much the same for anyone who wants to be an airline pilot. You do your training/get your degree, you obtain your pilot licenses and ratings, you log the required number of flight hours and then you can apply for a job somewhere that would allow you to gain the number of hours needed to apply with the airlines and get an ATP license. This is for those individuals who have no military training. Flying lessons and flight time needed to achieve the necessary number of hours to obtain an ATP license is expensive for the average person irrespective of race however this is one of the ways an airline can ensure that more women and minorities can achieve their dream of becoming commercial airlines pilots. If they sponsor their training and/or guarantee them a position upon completion, provide money for scholarships, create outreach programs with mentors and support for kids who want to go into this field, all of that would help. Yes it's targeted and there are a few private programs that I know of already that do this but the airlines have the money and incentive to sponsor future pilots this way. It doesn't even have to be exclusively for women and minorities, it could also be need based.

The thing you're forgetting is all of the white pilots who didn't come from the military started out with no airline experience too, yet no one is crying that their flying abilities are putting people in danger.

Another thing, perhaps the airlines would prefer to hire someone just starting out that they can train and hire at a beginning wage and get a good 40 years out of before they have to retire, than hiring an experienced pilot who is closer to retirement age and maybe only get 10 - 15 years out of him at a much higher salary.

I'm sure rookie pilots will get you to your destination safely in favorable weather. But where the experience comes in is when there is bad weather or something goes wrong with the plane and the pilot has to take emergency actions to try and land safely.

Did you forget that there are at least 2 pilots on the flight deck? Surely you don't believe that they would partner a new inexperienced pilot with another new inexperienced pilot do you?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Who in the hell would be stupid enough to fly on an airline piloted by dumbass affirmative action shitheads?

I rest my case.

 

[james bond]

I work PT for an airway company and almost all are white who were trained by military. Get it?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I work PT for an airway company and almost all are white who were trained by military. Get it?

Are you trying to make a point or ask a question?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Did you forget that there are at least 2 pilots on the flight deck? Surely you don't believe that they would partner a new inexperienced pilot with another new inexperienced pilot do you?

No I didn't know that. Years ago when I flew, they had a pilot and a copilot. The copilot took over if the pilot had to use the restroom or simply took a break. Now, if you're going to tell me the copilot is the trainee, I already posted that a new pilot needs to be a copilot for a few years.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Who in the hell would be stupid enough to fly on an airline piloted by dumbass affirmative action shitheads?

It will take them years to get the program going, but once it starts and if I have to fly somewhere, I'll be staying off of United. On the other hand I probably would anyway.

You see, they took over Continental when they left a couple years ago. When I dealt with Continental, they all had their shit together. I never had problems with my paperwork in the office, the shippers and receivers knew where my freight was always at, it was usually less than a half-hour venture. When United took over, forget about it. One time I had to wait an hour just to get the paperwork. One hand didn't know what the other one was doing.

It's a federal requirement that the driver present his ID when delivering freight for shipment. With the Continental employees, after they got to know you, they put my drivers license number in their computer. With United, they asked me to drag out my license each and every time I delivered something.

My point is this is not the first time United has hired substandard workers. At least since they took over here in Cleveland, it was ongoing and quite annoying, especially at the end of the day when you just want to park your truck and go home already.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You are patently wrong on both counts. The Tuskegee airmen were both qualified and experienced with proven military honors yet white racism prevented them from being hired not just by the airlines but as pilots flying in other venues as well. Are you going to try to tell me that these men were not as qualified and experienced as the white pilots? The guys doing the bombing runs during WWII began to specifically ask for them as escorts because they had such a stellar record however they had no idea they were black, they just wanted to be protected by the "Red Tails", the pilots whose loss record was half that of the white pilots.

So let me ask you something since you've obviously not thought this through. Where are all of these experienced white pilots that are losing out on jobs because United wants to hire more women and minorities? Because if they are as qualified and experienced as you are requiring, they're not looking for work, they already employed.

I really am just baffled at why you think that hiring someone who is coming out of college with a degree, 250 hours of flight time and a commercial pilot license with an instrument and multi-engine rating is inherently dangerous. The airline has their own training programs and the new pilots are paired with an experienced pilot who will ensure that they are competent and if not that management knows about it. There is nothing unusual about this and they have been doing things this way for as long as I can remember.

I found this particular conversation very interesting. It's a question posed by a high schooler who is trying to figure out which school to attend in order to achieve his goal of becoming an airline pilot. The questions are answered by two current airline transport pilots (commercial airline pilots):

Please, you are talking at a time before even I was born. Things changed for minorities and women during and after the 70s. More laws than ever protecting them. People who still believe we have these problems today are living in the 1950's.

I'm sure pilots switch airlines all the time just like any other job. Dissatisfaction with pay or policies go on in the airlines industry too. I know from being a driver for 30 years you are not totally comfortable handling a tractor-trailer unless you spend several years in one. It's not just my trade, it's any trade. Any tenured employee in any profession will tell you that. Can they do the job? Yes they can. But when the shit hits the fan, it's only a well experienced employee that can handle critical problems. This is who supervisors discuss major problems with, not the person that's been there a year or two because they have the education and passed all the tests.

Bottom line is that United and any major airlines should only hire employees based on experience and a good work record no matter who they are. After all they are flying tens of thousands of people every single day.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Please, you are talking at a time before even I was born. Things changed for minorities and women during and after the 70s. More laws than ever protecting them. People who still believe we have these problems today are living in the 1950's.

It doesn't matter when it was, it's proof that 2`

Did you forget that there are at least 2 pilots on the flight deck? Surely you don't believe that they would partner a new inexperienced pilot with another new inexperienced pilot do you?

No I didn't know that. Years ago when I flew, they had a pilot and a copilot. The copilot took over if the pilot had to use the restroom or simply took a break. Now, if you're going to tell me the copilot is the trainee, I already posted that a new pilot needs to be a copilot for a few years.

I'm still baffled. Even if you didn't know what the procedure is to end up as the captain and pilot in command of an aircraft, the individual who has final authority and say over anything and everything that happens on that aircraft, why would you assume such an idiotic scenario as a new graduate with no commercial flying experience as the pilot in command and another brand spanking new graduate who also has no commercial flying experience as the co-pilot? I mean that's idiotic on it's face and NO ONE would do something like that yet this is the conclusion that ALL of you jumped to.

So now that we've stripped away all the pretext reasons for the objections, can we now admit that you all just don't want more black people or women at the controls of a commercial aircraft not because they can't do the job or are not the "best" candidates for the positions, but perhaps instead because in addition to the fact that some of you are raging racists and/or misogynists maybe some of you are also simply envious and don't want to see others, particularly women or minorities doing things you don't have the ability to do.

Flying is kind of a "club", whether you do it professionally or privately. Not everyone can do it and there are some who don't think we should be allowed in. Sucks to be them.

Oh and just FYI, it did not escape my attention Ray that you ended defense of your position by claiming the airlines need to hire the "most experienced" ("the best") pilots when previously you stated (the emphasis is your interpretation)

In this particular instance, the CEO said he's going to press for more minority and female pilots. This doesn't sound like a guy who ever discriminated on race of gender in the past. Their criteria was the best candidate period. So if he never discriminated before, what's he really saying? He's saying they are going to choose less qualified pilots over more qualified pilots based on race and gender.