Universal Basic Income

[jotathought]

I have read all, or almost all, of Thomas Paine's writings. I think we have a user on this forum who has adopted Paine's name.

Thomas Paine is perhaps most well-known to Americans as being the author of Common Sense, a pamphlet which inspired every patriot to independence.

[removed for brevity]

More in my next post.

What value does Universal Basic Income bring to the table? What are the cons of bringing Universal Basic Income to the table? Who pays for it?

 

[progressive hunter]

What value does Universal Basic Income bring to the table? What are the cons of bringing Universal Basic Income to the table? Who pays for it?

when advancements in mechanized labor get to a point it leaves millions of people from finding good jobs it helps reduce poverty that creates large crime syndicates that bring crime to every corner of the country,,

 

[jotathought]

when advancements in mechanized labor get to a point it leaves millions of people from finding good jobs it helps reduce poverty that creates large crime syndicates that bring crime to every corner of the country,,

How does it help "reduce poverty?" In reality, it produces a dependency on government, like welfare programs, that provide zero incentive to better oneself. It also puts more money into the economy, and when too much money is being printed, it doesn't really benefit the consumers.

Who pays for it, and who qualifies for it?

 

[Roy C]

For those unfamiliar with UBI, it is basically a payment to every citizen every month by the government.

So let's see:

Monkey 1 passes a dollar to monkey 2.
Monkey 2 passes a dollar to monkey 3.
Monkey 3 passes a dollar to monkey 4.
Monkey 4 passes a dollar to monkey 5.
And monkey 5 passes a dollar back to monkey 1.


Sounds legit.

 

[progressive hunter]

How does it help "reduce poverty?" In reality, it produces a dependency on government, like welfare programs, that provide zero incentive to better oneself. It also puts more money into the economy, and when too much money is being printed, it doesn't really benefit the consumers.

Who pays for it, and who qualifies for it?

it puts money in peoples pocket where they wouldnt otherwise have any,,

who pays for it and who decides who gets it is a huge conversation that needs to be had for yrs before it could ever be implemented,,


to be clear I am not in favor of it,,
but reality tells me someday the choice will come before us do we have a large percentage of people that cant find jobs and have no money or do we come up with a way to offset or directly deal with it,,

one idea is a person has to work so many yrs to qualify, or so many months a yr,,

that could be done at the corp level and government has nothing to do with it,,

 

[HikerGuy83]

You can see Jefferson was upset about concentrated wealth in his day, just like many people are today.

I tend to agree with him.

What to do about it, I don't.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

From an article about Kenya's experiment with UBI. The results have been dramatic.

They used a control group in this experiment.

Experimental evaluations of conditional cash transfers have consistently found that recipients of shorter-term transfers do not reduce their work effort[3] or spend the money they receive on alcohol or tobacco.[4] Instead, these evaluations have documented improvements in a wide range of outcomes including food security[5] and educational attainment[6], investment in small businesses[7] and long-term earnings.[8] Even short-term infusions of capital have significantly improved long-term living standards[9], psychological well-being[10], and life expectancy.[11]

The Effects of a Universal Basic Income in Kenya | IPA

poverty-action.org

So I read the article you posted and two things stand out. Actually three.

First is the audacity of white liberals are once again using poor blacks as a social experiment. What would they ever do without the liberals “helping”. Human science experiments for people who think they know better than the savages they have come to liberate.

Second, zero effort in making Kenya a non corrupt, freedom and capitalist based nation. Just skipping right over the obvious cause of these people’s poverty and thinking the problem is the plebes just need a handout and all will be fine.

Third, it’s completely unsustainable within Kenya itself. The government either can’t or won’t support the payments themselves. So their generosity has to come from a third party or it can’t even get off the ground. Their benevolence must come from taking from other countries. I wonder which country that would be?

So in conclusion when this great experiment on the glory of UBI which the nation can’t afford and has to be supported by donations ends… what did you white liberals actually accomplish? You’ve once again left your black Guinea pigs high and dry and worse off.

Socialists can live quite well, until the people they are robbing go broke. That’s always been the problem with UBI. The math doesn’t work.

 

[MisterBeale]

Instead, the poor would be given money with no strings attached to spend as they please.

Agreed.

Most UBI schemes always have strings attached. ALWAYS. I can imagine, in the coming years, with AI and digital identity, these will include on-line identities, speech codes, vaccine requirements, etc.

Negative income tax incentivizes folks to go get a job, UBI does not. Negative Income tax ends when you rise above a certain level of income, UBI does not.

Every person's level of income in society is based on how much they hustle and contribute.

Negative income tax - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[progressive hunter]

You can see Jefferson was upset about concentrated wealth in his day, just like many people are today.

I see no problems with people that created wealth like elon and others that advanced society with their hard work and products,,

the problem is bankers and other financial industry people that manipulate the system to get rich,,

I have mixed feelings on wall street,,

to many different people using it for different reasons,,

 

[LeroyDumonde]

Though not touching on the topic of UBI, John Locke's comments about property are interesting. This comes from his Second Treatise Chapter 5.

First he explains the Labor Theory of Property, then says:

"It will perhaps be objected to this, that if gathering the acorns, or
other fruits of the earth, &c. makes a right to them, then any one may
engross as much as he will.' To which I answer, Not so. The same law of
nature, that does by this means give us property, does also bound that
property too. 'God has given us all things richly,' 1 Tim. vi. 17, is the voice
of reason confirmed by inspiration. But how far has he given it us ? To enjoy.
As much as any one can make use of to any advantage of life before it
spoils, so much he may by his labour fix a property in: whatever is beyond
this, is more than his share, and belongs to others. Nothing was made by
God for man to spoil or destroy. And thus, considering the plenty of natural
provisions there was a long time in the world, and the few spenders; and to
how small a part of that provision the industry of one man could extend
itself, and engross it to the prejudice of others; especially keeping within
the bounds, set by reason, of what might serve for his use; there could be
then little room for quarrels or contentions about property so established.

"But the chief matter of property being now not the fruits of the
earth, and the beasts that subsist on it, but the earth itself; as that which
takes in, and carries with it all the rest ; I think it is plain, that property in that
too is acquired as the former. As much land as a man tills, plants, improves,
cultivates, and can use the product of, so much is his property. He by his
labour does, as it were, enclose it from the common. Nor will it invalidate
his right, to say every body else has an equal title to it, and therefore he
cannot appropriate, he cannot enclose, without the consent of all his fellow-
commoners, all mankind. God, when he gave the world in common to all
mankind, commanded man also to labour, and the penury of his condition
required it of him. God and his reason commanded him to subdue the earth,
i. e. improve it for the benefit of life, and therein lay out something upon it
that was his own, his labour. He that, in obedience to this command of God,
subdued, tilled, and sowed any part of it, thereby annexed to it something
that was his property, which another had no title to, nor could without injury
take from him. "

Things went sideways when we decided that people can own as large a tract of land that they can afford. This is often connected to hiring people to work the land for you.

 

[Dirk the Daring]

This was sort of the solution figured out by Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell back in '78, as the solution to LBJ and Carter's great society stagflation boondoggle.

(previous post)

Suckers! Trump Era Tax Cuts Are Set To Expire — Here’s How Much More You’ll Pay

Why didn't Piglosi answer Schumer do it? I'll tell ya.....they would rather tell their mindless cult ORANGE MAN BAD than actually do something. And the cult chants ORANGE MAN BAD. There was no reason to do anything to the tax legislation.

www.usmessageboard.com

"I know this was tongue in cheek. . . but there was actually an idea in the late 70's, early 80's proposed by Milton Friedman, and supported by Thomas Sowell.

IN some ways, it is a revolutionary idea, with much foresight geared toward dismantling BIG GOVERNMENT, encouraging personal responsibility, while also providing a social safety net in the face of increasing social destabilizing forces of technological innovations and social dislocations . . . .

Not exactly a "UBI," that is proposed by some today, but similar. I was shocked that they foresaw the type of problems we are seeing today with AI and automation, all the way back then, but wanted to set up a system that would replace dependence on direct government assistance, entitlement programs, and the massive buracracy that grows up around that to administer them . . .

Negative Income tax? Have you ever heard of such an idea? I hadn't, till I ran across it last year, in the archives.

Government Shutdown October 1st! Yay Republicans!

None, I just want to know WHY MTG, LB, and MG voted Nay. You seem to call (D) haters of the Military for voting Nay, so what do you say about MTG, LB, and MG voting Nay? You are too afraid to answer, aren't you. C'mon big Reb ......why do those 3 (R) get a pass from you? None is not a link...

www.usmessageboard.com

"Domestic Spending Waste & Corruption.​

There seems to be a lot of discussion and debate in the past several years with the advent of AI, increased efficiency, decreased employment opportunity and demands for equity, from the independent and far left, for ideas like guaranteed minimum income/UBI (universal basic income,) or reparations. Conservatives and libertarians shudder at this, because they envision more debt added to the budget, both in more entitlement payments, and more bureaucracy to administer it.

But what if we could satisfy the left's demands for UBI/reparations where needed, while also decreasing the size of the welfare bureaucracy?

Just a curious idea, film and discussion from forty/fifty years ago. . . perhaps an idea ahead of its time, coming from the right. Presented by Milton Freidman, featuring Thomas Sowell in discussion, the idea of negative income tax. . .

Could that be a start, to solve the massive entitlement side of the equation?

Negative income tax​

Negative income tax - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Free To Choose - Milton Friedman on The Welfare System (1978) | Thomas Sowell​

776,023 views Sep 16, 2019
"Milton Freidman, in the fourth segment of the series, shows why he believes government-run welfare programs do not help the people they are intended to help or achieve the ends they are intended to achieve, and why the "welfare state" leads to loss of initiative, independence, and personal liberty. Friedman compares slum areas and luxury apartments of New York City, visits two families on welfare, one in Harlem and one in Britain, and argues in favor of the negative income tax. Featuring Thomas Sowell.

Shared for historical purposes. I do not own the rights.. . . "
"

Poor Thomas Sowell. He can't walk into ANY room in the WORLD without the burden of being the smartest person in it.

 

[g5000]

I see no problems with people that created wealth like elon and others that advanced society with their hard work and products,,

the problem is bankers and other financial industry people that manipulate the system to get rich,,

I have mixed feelings on wall street,,

to many different people using it for different reasons,,

I've said many times I do not begrudge anyone who made their fortune by being inventive. Such people should be allowed to keep as much of their money as possible.


I do begrudge those who bribe our politicians to rig the playing field to their favor.

Elon Musk rigged the playing field. He is not a hero. He is the beneficiary of billions in government subsidies, both here and in China.

As for "Wall Street", there is a fantastic book you should read. It was written a couple years before the global derivatives crash.

It was written by an insider and he explains how the bastards pride themselves on ripping off investors.

Just look to Abacus 2007-AC1 for an example. The real fucked up part of that scam is Goldman Sachs paid a fine that was half the amount they made by ripping off their investors.

Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

 

[g5000]

A Simple Explanation of Goldman Sachs: Abacus 2007-AC1

In the last few weeks, what’s been going on with Goldman Sachs has shaken investor confidence in the financial markets. Like many other students, I’ve followed the news about Goldman with...

www.theworkingeconomy.com

Basically, Goldman Sachs colluded with hedge fund icon John Paulson to rip the faces off their investors.

"Rip their faces off" is a Wall Street term discussed in the book I mentioned in my last post.

Goldman allowed Paulson to pick the most toxic securities they had on their books and pack them into a CDO and then con various investors to take the insurance seller side of credit default swaps knowing the securities in that CDO would fail, thus triggering a credit event requiring those investors to pay up.

Neither Goldman nor Paulson informed the investors they had rigged the CDO with what they knew to be toxic securities.

Their investors lost a billion dollars.

Goldman and Paulson made a billion dollars off this fraud.



They were fined about half that by the SEC. And no one went to jail.

Goldman Sachs to Pay Record $550 Million to Settle SEC Charges Related to Subprime Mortgage CDO​

​

This was not the first nor the last fraud Goldman committed during the leadup to the crash.


.

 

[g5000]

Imagine the benefits of eliminating all welfare programs. EBT, SNAP, etc.

These have large bureaucracies with lots of expensive overhead costs. They are also subject to a great deal of fraud, waste, and abuse.

We could replace all of these programs with a single, simple "negative income tax" as described by Milton Friedman.

This would be much cheaper and less complex than our current mess.

 

[g5000]

It is important to note Friedman is speaking in 1968 dollar figures:

 

[progressive hunter]

Imagine the benefits of eliminating all welfare programs. EBT, SNAP, etc.

These have large bureaucracies with lots of expensive overhead costs. They are also subject to a great deal of fraud, waste, and abuse.

We could replace all of these programs with a single, simple "negative income tax" as described by Milton Friedman.

This would be much cheaper and less complex than our current mess.

I dont think its that simple to just drop one and start the other,,

while there will come a time when UBI will be needed,, but to just do it now will create an even worse result where people will quit their jobs and live off of UBI..

whether you call it UBI or negative income tax will require the person actually put into the system,,

theres got to be skin in the game for both their integrity and for the people that are paying for it to not feel like theyre not getting the short end of the stick,

 

[jbander]

I have read all, or almost all, of Thomas Paine's writings. I think we have a user on this forum who has adopted Paine's name.

Thomas Paine is perhaps most well-known to Americans as being the author of Common Sense, a pamphlet which inspired every patriot to independence.

He also published a series of pamphlets under the title American Crisis. The most famous line most of us have heard from that series is, "These are the times which try men's souls."

Lesser known today, but quite famous during its time, was The Age of Reason. In this three part tome written after we gained independence, Paine completely deconstructed the Christian Bible. He ripped it to pieces.

Paine was an advocate of Deism.

The Age of Reason was a huge bestseller in the US. and led to a revival of deism here.

Not so well known today is Paine's Agrarian Justice.

Like most of our Founders, Paine believe in Natural Rights. He believed "landed property" was an inevitable violation of Natural Rights that needed to be mitigated as the poor were worse off under such a system than when humans had lived in a state of nature.

Paine's solution was for America to provide a tidy sum to every American who reached the age of 21, and to provide an annual sum to everyone who arrived at the age of 50.

The latter half is Social Security. The former is a precursor to a universal basic income, though Paine intended it to be a one time payment so the poor could buy cows or other means to support themselves.

What? Social Security proposed way back in 1797? And UBI, too?!?

It's a very fascinating piece to read, so here it is: http://www.piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Paine1795.pdf

Just as an aside, Thomas Jefferson also felt the same about the landed class violating Natural Rights, and he proposed a progressive tax on the wealthy, with most Americans being exempt from taxation. (Editing note: I originally posted it was James Madison, but I got the recipient and the sender reversed. See letter in post 4 below. My apologies.)

Our Founders were proto-commies!


Kamala Harris proposed a universal basic income when she was a US Senator in 2018, which puts here squarely in the Liberal column.

More in my next post.

all the right wing transfer of wealth to the golden few has been done with tax rates, tax law and just law. and can be mostly written to distribute the wealth in honorable way. right now so much wealth his taken in by doing nothing. and then giving that doing nothing a tax break also. it is insane.

 

[g5000]

I dont think its that simple to just drop one and start the other,,

while there will come a time when UBI will be needed,, but to just do it now will create an even worse result where people will quit their jobs and live off of UBI..

Every study done with UBI has proven the exact opposite of that claim. Every study has shown employment has risen among recipients of UBI.

Please see the links I provided in my OP.

 

[progressive hunter]

Every study done with UBI has proven the exact opposite of that claim. Every study has shown employment has risen among recipients of UBI.

Please see the links I provided in my OP.

you links are for other countries completely different from the US,,

they mean nothing,,

 

[g5000]

all the right wing transfer of wealth to the golden few has been done with tax rates, tax law and just law. and can be mostly written to distribute the wealth in honorable way. right now so much wealth his taken in by doing nothing. and then giving that doing nothing a tax break also. it is insane.

Most of the deductions, exemptions, and credits in our tax code disproportionately benefit the wealthy.

What's more, quite a few industries have gotten special carveouts and loopholes which benefit them.

Not to mention the subsidies they receive. Elon Musk has received billions in subsidies both here and in China.

And finally, our regulatory regime has been rigged to prevent newcomers with better business models to break into the business sector.

Just look at the uphill battle Uber had to fight to be able to provide their rideshare business to everyone. Cabbies in every city fought tooth and nail against Uber, using longstanding laws limiting the number of vehicles allowed to charge fares.

Before Uber, a taxi medallion in NYC was worth over a million dollars because the law limited the number allowed.

After Uber won the war, medallions dropped to one-tenth their value.

So, yeah. Getting back to a level playing field is going to take some serious effort.

This is why I am constantly posting about tax expenditures. They are the worst kind of government interference in the free market and in our wallets.