Unions in the US

[ABikerSailor]

You know what's so funny about the last two posts?

Workers need to be protected by unions from the government...not industry.

You know........unions have done some pretty good things in the past. Child labor laws for one, as well as working conditions for people like miners.

Mines aren't operated by the government, they're operated by private companies, and it's the unions that try to keep the owners honest and keep the mines in safe operating conditions.

You know.......if those 2 douchebags in Kentucky and Utah that owned mines that killed people had actually installed the safety precautions that ARE REQUIRED, then maybe those miners would still be alive.

And........FWIW..........my Grandfather was a union mine who worked for a private road construction company called Macintyre and Co. They built most of the roads in Montana by the way. In some cases, it was the pressure put on the company by the unions that kept some of my Grandfather's friends from getting killed because they wanted to cut corners.

 

[asterism]

Interesting question. And I can understand the arguments on both sides.

But what I will say emphatically is that unions will absolutely become necessary again if they're ever done away with.

I agree, but the governments need to stop propping them up like in the case of GM.

 

[The Rabbi]

Which goes back to the fact that the entire reason for labor unions is to provide equality in negotiations between labor and management. And negotiations where both sides have approximately equal power are always going to yield the best results.

It's all about balance.

I don't understand that point.
An employer is offering a job for a given wage.
An employee is offering his labor for a given wage.
They negotiate and come to an agreement based on many factors, including and especially "is this the best deal I can get?" Pretty much like anything else.
Do you ask for representation when you buy a car from a dealer? This is so even though the dealer is in a much stronger position than you are.

Of course you don't understand it. Because you're so fixated on "representation" you have no idea what a union even is, its actual purpose or how it operates.

Now...I've already posted in this thread that I think the modern union needs a major overhaul. But the entire purpose of a labor union is collective bargaining to level the playing field and provide the balance to the relative power of the employer. On that level, the union is a necessity as the counterbalance.

Note: Repeating yourself isn't argumentation. It is merely repeating yourself.
I've already taken you to the woodpile on unions' illegality. Do you need another lesson?

 

[The Rabbi]

Why is that argument wrong? Why is it any more wrong than "I don't like this product or service so I will buy it elsewhere"?
Unsafe working conditions are illegal. Discrimination is illegal. One does not need unions for this. Nor were unions helpful here, promoting discrimination more than fighting it.
And why should one worker who is satisfied with his wages and benefits be compelled to quit his job just because some other worker is not satisfied?
In the IT world workers move all the time to companies offering better pay/benefits. And they don't need a union to do it, nor do they work under 19th century conditions.

work for the PO Rabbi.....you will be glad you have a Union.....they are not the greatest Union....but they do get on the PO when they violate the Contract they signed,they do get on them when they try and ignore safety concerns,they do get on the managers who seem to think they can treat people like shit.....in the PO the list is fairly extensive....but basically in the PO Middle and Upper Managers will attempt to violate anything they can to get their numbers they need so they can get their ******* bonuses....the Unions are the only thing standing in their way....

You're speaking about the Post Office, which is largely bankrupt and inefficient through high labor costs? That PO?

 

[daveman]

You know what's so funny about the last two posts?

Workers need to be protected by unions from the government...not industry.

You know........unions have done some pretty good things in the past. Child labor laws for one, as well as working conditions for people like miners.

Mines aren't operated by the government, they're operated by private companies, and it's the unions that try to keep the owners honest and keep the mines in safe operating conditions.

You know.......if those 2 douchebags in Kentucky and Utah that owned mines that killed people had actually installed the safety precautions that ARE REQUIRED, then maybe those miners would still be alive.

And........FWIW..........my Grandfather was a union mine who worked for a private road construction company called Macintyre and Co. They built most of the roads in Montana by the way. In some cases, it was the pressure put on the company by the unions that kept some of my Grandfather's friends from getting killed because they wanted to cut corners.

You'll get no argument from me about unions having served a noble purpose.

That purpose, however, has since been served by government regulation.

Now, unions have become that which they were created to protect against: entities that exploit workers for profit.

 

[The Rabbi]

You know what's so funny about the last two posts?

Workers need to be protected by unions from the government...not industry.

The Government that the Unions created and are responsible for. The best thing we could do for the Republic is outlaw Unions, all of them. Outlaw Unions and Monopolies.

Except there's no such thing as a monopoly without government legislation to that effect. Is IBM a monopoly? Microsoft?
But unions exist because of gov't legislation. Get rid of them.

 

[shintao]

Interesting question. And I can understand the arguments on both sides.

But what I will say emphatically is that unions will absolutely become necessary again if they're ever done away with.

I agree, but the governments need to stop propping them up like in the case of GM.

Everybody needs a bailout in a capitalist system

 

[Rozman]

I love this game.....I will take b for $200 Alex.And I will take c for $500 as well....

 

[daveman]

Interesting question. And I can understand the arguments on both sides.

But what I will say emphatically is that unions will absolutely become necessary again if they're ever done away with.

I agree, but the governments need to stop propping them up like in the case of GM.

Everybody needs a bailout in a capitalist system

I believe "too big to fail" was used by the Left the past couple of years. GM, its employees,its suppliers, and America would have been better off if it had been allowed to go bankrupt. Another manufacturer would have bought it up and turned it around.

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know what's so funny about the last two posts?

Workers need to be protected by unions from the government...not industry.

You know........unions have done some pretty good things in the past. Child labor laws for one, as well as working conditions for people like miners.

Mines aren't operated by the government, they're operated by private companies, and it's the unions that try to keep the owners honest and keep the mines in safe operating conditions.

You know.......if those 2 douchebags in Kentucky and Utah that owned mines that killed people had actually installed the safety precautions that ARE REQUIRED, then maybe those miners would still be alive.

And........FWIW..........my Grandfather was a union mine who worked for a private road construction company called Macintyre and Co. They built most of the roads in Montana by the way. In some cases, it was the pressure put on the company by the unions that kept some of my Grandfather's friends from getting killed because they wanted to cut corners.

You'll get no argument from me about unions having served a noble purpose.

That purpose, however, has since been served by government regulation.

Now, unions have become that which they were created to protect against: entities that exploit workers for profit.

Unfortunately, the GOP wants to get rid of governmental regulations, as well as abolish the minimum wage.

 

[daveman]

You know........unions have done some pretty good things in the past. Child labor laws for one, as well as working conditions for people like miners.

Mines aren't operated by the government, they're operated by private companies, and it's the unions that try to keep the owners honest and keep the mines in safe operating conditions.

You know.......if those 2 douchebags in Kentucky and Utah that owned mines that killed people had actually installed the safety precautions that ARE REQUIRED, then maybe those miners would still be alive.

And........FWIW..........my Grandfather was a union mine who worked for a private road construction company called Macintyre and Co. They built most of the roads in Montana by the way. In some cases, it was the pressure put on the company by the unions that kept some of my Grandfather's friends from getting killed because they wanted to cut corners.

You'll get no argument from me about unions having served a noble purpose.

That purpose, however, has since been served by government regulation.

Now, unions have become that which they were created to protect against: entities that exploit workers for profit.

Unfortunately, the GOP wants to get rid of governmental regulations, as well as abolish the minimum wage.

Yeah, not really.

 

[8537]

Except there's no such thing as a monopoly without government legislation to that effect. Is IBM a monopoly? Microsoft?

Standard Oil? Carnegie Steel? The Western Railroads? IBM until the 1970's? Natural monopolies exist...naturally, without government interference or legislation.

Your rightwing radio taught you well.

 

[Trajan]

agencies/standards ala; niosh, ansi, ohsa, nlrb, nfpa eeoc etc etc etc have largely rendered them obsolete.

I think radio man alluded to the nub of it imho, they are primarily adversarial factions now, disconnected from their original purpose.

 

[shintao]

You know what's so funny about the last two posts?

Workers need to be protected by unions from the government...not industry.

The Government that the Unions created and are responsible for. The best thing we could do for the Republic is outlaw Unions, all of them. Outlaw Unions and Monopolies.

Except there's no such thing as a monopoly without government legislation to that effect. Is IBM a monopoly? Microsoft?
But unions exist because of gov't legislation. Get rid of them.

Nah, I think we will leave the Unions alone.

 

[The Rabbi]

Except there's no such thing as a monopoly without government legislation to that effect. Is IBM a monopoly? Microsoft?

Standard Oil? Carnegie Steel? The Western Railroads? IBM until the 1970's? Natural monopolies exist...naturally, without government interference or legislation.

Your rightwing radio taught you well.

Except none of them were really monopolies. Nor did they engage in monopoly practices.
Except the railroads, who of course were granted right of ways by....the gov't.
And you are citing things from over 100 years ago, not exactly applicable today. Kind of like unions.
But I guess when you can't argue the main point you grab on to irrelevance.

 

[The Rabbi]

The Government that the Unions created and are responsible for. The best thing we could do for the Republic is outlaw Unions, all of them. Outlaw Unions and Monopolies.

Except there's no such thing as a monopoly without government legislation to that effect. Is IBM a monopoly? Microsoft?
But unions exist because of gov't legislation. Get rid of them.

Nah, I think we will leave the Unions alone.

Are you kidding? WIth this admnistration they are in the WH weekly helping create law in this country. Isnt that what you want? The ultimate lobbyists, sleeping over at the WH and making law for the rest of us. One would think Leftists would be having knipshins.

 

[shintao]

Except there's no such thing as a monopoly without government legislation to that effect. Is IBM a monopoly? Microsoft?
But unions exist because of gov't legislation. Get rid of them.

Nah, I think we will leave the Unions alone.

Are you kidding? WIth this admnistration they are in the WH weekly helping create law in this country. Isnt that what you want? The ultimate lobbyists, sleeping over at the WH and making law for the rest of us. One would think Leftists would be having knipshins.

What law are they making for the rest of us?

 

[8537]

Except there's no such thing as a monopoly without government legislation to that effect. Is IBM a monopoly? Microsoft?

Standard Oil? Carnegie Steel? The Western Railroads? IBM until the 1970's? Natural monopolies exist...naturally, without government interference or legislation.

Your rightwing radio taught you well.

Except none of them were really monopolies. Nor did they engage in monopoly practices

Your kidding, right? Standard and IBM were both unquestionably monopolies. Railroads were by any definition a monopoly.

And you are citing things from over 100 years ago, not exactly applicable today. Kind of like unions.

IBM's monopoly is not 100 years old.

But I guess when you can't argue the main point you grab on to irrelevance.

No, when you make ignorant statements I correct them.

Of course, I didn't go so irrelevant as to call another poster a hooker ala your fine form...

 

[8537]

Except there's no such thing as a monopoly without government legislation to that effect. Is IBM a monopoly? Microsoft?
But unions exist because of gov't legislation. Get rid of them.

Nah, I think we will leave the Unions alone.

Are you kidding? WIth this admnistration they are in the WH weekly helping create law in this country. Isnt that what you want? The ultimate lobbyists, sleeping over at the WH and making law for the rest of us. One would think Leftists would be having knipshins.

that explains why card check passed so quickly!

 

[JBeukema]

I find it interesting that near all the posters who could be rightfully said to be left of center have agreed that there are significant problems with the way many unions operate today and have been open in their criticisms whilst many on the right have refused to honestly discuss the history of unionization or their past accomplishments, choosing instead to focus on a caricaturization of them as inherently evil agencies which are somehow wholly responsible for unemployment and all of America's economic ills.