Union thugs

[Immanuel]

And, MikeK, I'm not nor have I ever said that the unions do not or did not serve a purpose.

They do in fact serve a purpose. Without them corporations would run rampant over the workforce. Unions serve to equalize against that, but this kind of violence is not acceptable under any circumstances.

Immie

 

[MikeK]

I will never support violence especially the violence you are supporting against your own brothers and sisters.

I don't know about your brothers and sisters but my brothers and sisters would not put me out of work by taking my job for two bucks less an hour. One reason is they are smart enough to know that once I am out and the union is busted the boss will soon cut their pay and keep on cutting it as long as he can find scabs willing to work for less. In real terms that kind of exploitatation is precisely what the Teamsters Union stood against. If they hadn't my son-in-law would be working like an obedient slave for six or seven dollars an hour instead of living with middle class dignity and adequately supporting his family. That kind of security doesn't come easy.

By the way, most of those scabs you speak of are out of work lower - middle class Americans who are simply trying to feed themselves while you go on demanding a larger share of company profits than you deserve.

Can you support that notion with some actual numbers? Or are you simply repeating what you've heard from a wide variety of corporatist propagandists?

Most of you do not have a clue what it costs to run a business and how much you actually cost your employers, yet you demand more to the point of driving your employers out of business entirely.

What we know is many of the businesses that employ union workers are eminently profitable. The major difference in using scab labor would show in stock dividends and CEO salaries and bonuses.

The present assault on the middle class is manifest in the elimination of many unions and the stagnation of wages while the nation's wealth resources are being diverted to a small percentage of what may be called a neo-aristocracy -- the super-rich. What we are seeing is America being reverted to the Gilded Age.

 

[The Gadfly]

I realize he is the exception, but I have to say I will not stand behind a union that resorts to violence to get its way. I realize that you are a union supporter and I respect that. I am not against the unions so much as I am against the corrupt individuals that run the unions. IMHO they are no different that the politicians and lobbyists in Washington.

I've read a couple of your "justifications" of union violence in this thread. I'm sorry, I don't buy it. Especially when the people they attack are other members of the middle class.

Immie

Did you see the movie, Hoffa? If so, do you believe Jimmy Hoffa could have brought the Teamsters Union to prevail over the brutal goon oppression waged against his early membership without meeting violence with violence?

When I was a boy growing up in South Brooklyn I knew an old Italian fellow who lost the sight in one eye from a beating he got from a gang of company-hired goons while walking a picket line outside the Railway Express truck yard in Long Island City. He said that was not uncommon and I've read quite a bit that confirms everything he told us.

I am not a violent person by nature. But I know and I accept that there are times when violence is unavoidable. I know that sometimes the best way to fight fire is with fire. I know that Jimmy Hoffa made a pact with the devil out of sheer necessity. But if he hadn't done that my son-in-law, along with millions of other truckers would still be working for coolie wages and living like peasants. And I know the same can be said for longshoremen and many other union members.

What we're talking about here is class warfare -- which can get pretty damn brutal. I don't like it but I understand it. The people who become involved in it at the base-level are not refined, well educated and gentle-natured. They are rough-hewn individuals who drive trucks, load and unload ships, work on high iron and bull-work construction jobs. When they are positioned by manipulative management-level forces in opposition to each other, violence is inevitable. They are fighting for the bread on their tables.

No, I have not seen the movie.

Yes, you and the union bosses are waging a war against other members of the middle class of America. Your violence doesn't affect the big wigs in the corporate offices of America. It affects your neighbors. People who live right down the road from you maybe even right next door. When you resort to violence, then you become a common thug, a pawn to be used by the Jimmy Hoffa's of this world.

Immie

Very well stated, Immmie, and here, union folks, is the reason so many have turned against you, and your Leftist allies. Organized labor wants the right to have a union; it wants to have the right to do so, without being harassed, or threatened with violence by the government, or by employers and/or other workers. Fine...until it tries to deny other Americans THEIR rights-like the right to seek and hold a job, and refuse to join or support a union, without being harassed, threatened, coerced or intimidated by the union, its members, and its "enforcers". YOU CANNOT DENY TO OTHER AMERICANS THE SAME "RIGHTS" YOU DEMAND FOR YOURSELVES, and IN PARTICULAR, YOU CANNOT USE VIOLENCE, OR THE THREAT OF VIOLENCE TO DO SO! That tears at the very heart of this Republic, at the basic principles embodied in the Constitution; that EVERY American, without regard to color, religious or poltical affiliation, or economic status, shall have the same rights, and the same responsibilities as every other American, and be held to the same accountability before the law as every other American. The klan and Nazis tried to deny this: where are they now? The robber barons tried to deny this, where are they now? Religious bigots tried to deny this: where are they now? Relegated to the dung heap, foul symbols of an ugly past, repudiated and cast aside by their fellow Americans, that is where! Now, the political Left, and organized labor, seem to think they are an exception; that they can use violence, thuggery and intimidation when they want, where they want, as much as they want, to deny other Americans the same liberties they demand for themselves. That is just as wrong today, as it was before! It was wrong when the Klan did it; it's wrong now! It was wrong, when the Nazis did it; it's wrong now! it was wrong, when religious bigots did it; it's wrong now! It was wrong, when the robber barons did it: it's wrong now! It reeks of injustice, of arrogance, and of contempt for the rule of law and the basic values of this nation. It reeks of hatred, corruption and hypocrisy. It reeks, whether those doing it are rich or poor or in between. It reeks, regardless of the color of anyone's skin or politics. It reeks, when it cloaks itself in religion, or the lack of it. It reeks, whether its practitioners claim to be of the right or of the left. It reeks, until REAL AMERICANS can no longer ignore the foul stench of it, and rise to stand against it, and once more, they are rising to stand against it now! It will be stopped, or the individuals and groups engaging in it will be cast aside, thrown out into discredited irrelevance. It may flourish in other nations, but it will be given no refuge here! It is a crime against the Constitution, and it will not stand!

 

[Sallow]

Did you see the movie, Hoffa? If so, do you believe Jimmy Hoffa could have brought the Teamsters Union to prevail over the brutal goon oppression waged against his early membership without meeting violence with violence?

When I was a boy growing up in South Brooklyn I knew an old Italian fellow who lost the sight in one eye from a beating he got from a gang of company-hired goons while walking a picket line outside the Railway Express truck yard in Long Island City. He said that was not uncommon and I've read quite a bit that confirms everything he told us.

I am not a violent person by nature. But I know and I accept that there are times when violence is unavoidable. I know that sometimes the best way to fight fire is with fire. I know that Jimmy Hoffa made a pact with the devil out of sheer necessity. But if he hadn't done that my son-in-law, along with millions of other truckers would still be working for coolie wages and living like peasants. And I know the same can be said for longshoremen and many other union members.

What we're talking about here is class warfare -- which can get pretty damn brutal. I don't like it but I understand it. The people who become involved in it at the base-level are not refined, well educated and gentle-natured. They are rough-hewn individuals who drive trucks, load and unload ships, work on high iron and bull-work construction jobs. When they are positioned by manipulative management-level forces in opposition to each other, violence is inevitable. They are fighting for the bread on their tables.

No, I have not seen the movie.

Yes, you and the union bosses are waging a war against other members of the middle class of America. Your violence doesn't affect the big wigs in the corporate offices of America. It affects your neighbors. People who live right down the road from you maybe even right next door. When you resort to violence, then you become a common thug, a pawn to be used by the Jimmy Hoffa's of this world.

Immie

Very well stated, Immmie, and here, union folks, is the reason so many have turned against you, and your Leftist allies. Organized labor wants the right to have a union; it wants to have the right to do so, without being harassed, or threatened with violence by the government, or by employers and/or other workers. Fine...until it tries to deny other Americans THEIR rights-like the right to seek and hold a job, and refuse to join or support a union, without being harassed, threatened, coerced or intimidated by the union, its members, and its "enforcers". YOU CANNOT DENY TO OTHER AMERICANS THE SAME "RIGHTS" YOU DEMAND FOR YOURSELVES, and IN PARTICULAR, YOU CANNOT USE VIOLENCE, OR THE THREAT OF VIOLENCE TO DO SO! That tears at the very heart of this Republic, at the basic principles embodied in the Constitution; that EVERY American, without regard to color, religious or poltical affiliation, or economic status, shall have the same rights, and the same responsibilities as every other American, and be held to the same accountability before the law as every other American. The klan and Nazis tried to deny this: where are they now? The robber barons tried to deny this, where are they now? Religious bigots tried to deny this: where are they now? Relegated to the dung heap, foul symbols of an ugly past, repudiated and cast aside by their fellow Americans, that is where! Now, the political Left, and organized labor, seem to think they are an exception; that they can use violence, thuggery and intimidation when they want, where they want, as much as they want, to deny other Americans the same liberties they demand for themselves. That is just as wrong today, as it was before! It was wrong when the Klan did it; it's wrong now! It was wrong, when the Nazis did it; it's wrong now! it was wrong, when religious bigots did it; it's wrong now! It was wrong, when the robber barons did it: it's wrong now! It reeks of injustice, of arrogance, and of contempt for the rule of law and the basic values of this nation. It reeks of hatred, corruption and hypocrisy. It reeks, whether those doing it are rich or poor or in between. It reeks, regardless of the color of anyone's skin or politics. It reeks, when it cloaks itself in religion, or the lack of it. It reeks, whether its practitioners claim to be of the right or of the left. It reeks, until REAL AMERICANS can no longer ignore the foul stench of it, and rise to stand against it, and once more, they are rising to stand against it now! It will be stopped, or the individuals and groups engaging in it will be cast aside, thrown out into discredited irrelevance. It may flourish in other nations, but it will be given no refuge here! It is a crime against the Constitution, and it will not stand!

So lets get this straight. You are ascribing the Union to Robber Barons?

Who the heck do you think knocked out the Robber Barons?



Man you guys are funny.

 

[hortysir]

[...]

I don't recall using the word "all" in my post... In fact, I refrain from generalities whenever possible....

[...]

No you don't. Your entire premise consists of vague, generalized, hyperbolic bullshit. I think you are a right-wing shill.

I've asked you for specifics in your condemnation of unions and all I got back is more bullshit. So let me give you some specifics:

My son-in-law has worked for United Parcel Service for 26 years. He started out sorting packages on the night shift and gradually became a route driver. He drives a trailer now, averages ten hours overtime a week and he likes his job. He owns a beautiful home on Long Island and he has a brand new car. He takes very good care of my daughter and three grandchildren and his benefits include top-shelf medical insurance for all of them.

He is a proud Teamster. He will tell you all he has he owes to that union. And in spite of all the nonsense spewed by people like you about "racket-ridden" unions, United Parcel Service, which has been unionized since its inception, remains a thriving, super-efficient mega-corporation.

Were it not for the Teamsters Union my son-in-law would probably be living in a rented apartment and worrying about how to buy food and pay his medical bills. So I'm really not receptive to any of your generalized anti-union bullshit.

You don't think he could have started at the bottom rung and worked his way up anyplace else in the job market and made a comfortable living?
So much for that 'family support' concept, hunh?


Why wouldn't he be able to be successful? Because it's a private corporation?

Aren't unions hired in by private corporations?

Only companies that don't allow unions in are evil?


You union thugs are ******* cracked.

 

[Sallow]

[...]

I don't recall using the word "all" in my post... In fact, I refrain from generalities whenever possible....

[...]

No you don't. Your entire premise consists of vague, generalized, hyperbolic bullshit. I think you are a right-wing shill.

I've asked you for specifics in your condemnation of unions and all I got back is more bullshit. So let me give you some specifics:

My son-in-law has worked for United Parcel Service for 26 years. He started out sorting packages on the night shift and gradually became a route driver. He drives a trailer now, averages ten hours overtime a week and he likes his job. He owns a beautiful home on Long Island and he has a brand new car. He takes very good care of my daughter and three grandchildren and his benefits include top-shelf medical insurance for all of them.

He is a proud Teamster. He will tell you all he has he owes to that union. And in spite of all the nonsense spewed by people like you about "racket-ridden" unions, United Parcel Service, which has been unionized since its inception, remains a thriving, super-efficient mega-corporation.

Were it not for the Teamsters Union my son-in-law would probably be living in a rented apartment and worrying about how to buy food and pay his medical bills. So I'm really not receptive to any of your generalized anti-union bullshit.

You don't think he could have started at the bottom rung and worked his way up anyplace else in the job market and made a comfortable living?
So much for that 'family support' concept, hunh?


Why wouldn't he be able to be successful? Because it's a private corporation?

Aren't unions hired in by private corporations?

Only companies that don't allow unions in are evil?


You union thugs are ******* cracked.

There was no real middle class in this country before the New Deal and Unions.

True story.

Life in this country became miserable for people who were not extremely wealthy. Had we continued on that path..this country would have went either commie or fascist.

 

[hortysir]

No you don't. Your entire premise consists of vague, generalized, hyperbolic bullshit. I think you are a right-wing shill.

I've asked you for specifics in your condemnation of unions and all I got back is more bullshit. So let me give you some specifics:

My son-in-law has worked for United Parcel Service for 26 years. He started out sorting packages on the night shift and gradually became a route driver. He drives a trailer now, averages ten hours overtime a week and he likes his job. He owns a beautiful home on Long Island and he has a brand new car. He takes very good care of my daughter and three grandchildren and his benefits include top-shelf medical insurance for all of them.

He is a proud Teamster. He will tell you all he has he owes to that union. And in spite of all the nonsense spewed by people like you about "racket-ridden" unions, United Parcel Service, which has been unionized since its inception, remains a thriving, super-efficient mega-corporation.

Were it not for the Teamsters Union my son-in-law would probably be living in a rented apartment and worrying about how to buy food and pay his medical bills. So I'm really not receptive to any of your generalized anti-union bullshit.

You don't think he could have started at the bottom rung and worked his way up anyplace else in the job market and made a comfortable living?
So much for that 'family support' concept, hunh?


Why wouldn't he be able to be successful? Because it's a private corporation?

Aren't unions hired in by private corporations?

Only companies that don't allow unions in are evil?


You union thugs are ******* cracked.

There was no real middle class in this country before the New Deal and Unions.

True story.

Life in this country became miserable for people who were not extremely wealthy. Had we continued on that path..this country would have went either commie or fascist.

Yea, but now there is






[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9uizdKZAGE&ob=av3e]Janet Jackson - What Have You Done For Me Lately - YouTube[/ame]

 

[The Gadfly]

No, I have not seen the movie.

Yes, you and the union bosses are waging a war against other members of the middle class of America. Your violence doesn't affect the big wigs in the corporate offices of America. It affects your neighbors. People who live right down the road from you maybe even right next door. When you resort to violence, then you become a common thug, a pawn to be used by the Jimmy Hoffa's of this world.

Immie

Very well stated, Immmie, and here, union folks, is the reason so many have turned against you, and your Leftist allies. Organized labor wants the right to have a union; it wants to have the right to do so, without being harassed, or threatened with violence by the government, or by employers and/or other workers. Fine...until it tries to deny other Americans THEIR rights-like the right to seek and hold a job, and refuse to join or support a union, without being harassed, threatened, coerced or intimidated by the union, its members, and its "enforcers". YOU CANNOT DENY TO OTHER AMERICANS THE SAME "RIGHTS" YOU DEMAND FOR YOURSELVES, and IN PARTICULAR, YOU CANNOT USE VIOLENCE, OR THE THREAT OF VIOLENCE TO DO SO! That tears at the very heart of this Republic, at the basic principles embodied in the Constitution; that EVERY American, without regard to color, religious or poltical affiliation, or economic status, shall have the same rights, and the same responsibilities as every other American, and be held to the same accountability before the law as every other American. The klan and Nazis tried to deny this: where are they now? The robber barons tried to deny this, where are they now? Religious bigots tried to deny this: where are they now? Relegated to the dung heap, foul symbols of an ugly past, repudiated and cast aside by their fellow Americans, that is where! Now, the political Left, and organized labor, seem to think they are an exception; that they can use violence, thuggery and intimidation when they want, where they want, as much as they want, to deny other Americans the same liberties they demand for themselves. That is just as wrong today, as it was before! It was wrong when the Klan did it; it's wrong now! It was wrong, when the Nazis did it; it's wrong now! it was wrong, when religious bigots did it; it's wrong now! It was wrong, when the robber barons did it: it's wrong now! It reeks of injustice, of arrogance, and of contempt for the rule of law and the basic values of this nation. It reeks of hatred, corruption and hypocrisy. It reeks, whether those doing it are rich or poor or in between. It reeks, regardless of the color of anyone's skin or politics. It reeks, when it cloaks itself in religion, or the lack of it. It reeks, whether its practitioners claim to be of the right or of the left. It reeks, until REAL AMERICANS can no longer ignore the foul stench of it, and rise to stand against it, and once more, they are rising to stand against it now! It will be stopped, or the individuals and groups engaging in it will be cast aside, thrown out into discredited irrelevance. It may flourish in other nations, but it will be given no refuge here! It is a crime against the Constitution, and it will not stand!

So lets get this straight. You are ascribing the Union to Robber Barons?

Who the heck do you think knocked out the Robber Barons?



Man you guys are funny.

No, I am pointing out that the unions' tactics are those of the very robber barons the unions condemn. Thugs are thugs, goons are goons, violence is violence, threats and intimidation are threats and intimidation; it makes no difference whether it is management, or labor, or any other organization that employs them to deprive others of legal and constitutional rights. Are you being intentionally obtuse, or is reading comprehension not your forte'?

 

[MikeK]

You don't think he could have started at the bottom rung and worked his way up anyplace else in the job market and made a comfortable living?
So much for that 'family support' concept, hunh?

I don't know if he could have or not and the question is not relevant because he's quite content with his life the way it is. He likes his job and money-wise he's doing as well as I've ever done and I have a university education. And he would tell you he owes his comfortable middle class existence to the Teamsters Union.

But based on what you've said I suspect you either are in high-school or college and have yet to step into the real world. If I'm right I suggest you prepare yourself for a very unpleasant awakening. Because it isn't as easy as you seem to think it is.

 

[The Gadfly]

No you don't. Your entire premise consists of vague, generalized, hyperbolic bullshit. I think you are a right-wing shill.

I've asked you for specifics in your condemnation of unions and all I got back is more bullshit. So let me give you some specifics:

My son-in-law has worked for United Parcel Service for 26 years. He started out sorting packages on the night shift and gradually became a route driver. He drives a trailer now, averages ten hours overtime a week and he likes his job. He owns a beautiful home on Long Island and he has a brand new car. He takes very good care of my daughter and three grandchildren and his benefits include top-shelf medical insurance for all of them.

He is a proud Teamster. He will tell you all he has he owes to that union. And in spite of all the nonsense spewed by people like you about "racket-ridden" unions, United Parcel Service, which has been unionized since its inception, remains a thriving, super-efficient mega-corporation.

Were it not for the Teamsters Union my son-in-law would probably be living in a rented apartment and worrying about how to buy food and pay his medical bills. So I'm really not receptive to any of your generalized anti-union bullshit.

You don't think he could have started at the bottom rung and worked his way up anyplace else in the job market and made a comfortable living?
So much for that 'family support' concept, hunh?


Why wouldn't he be able to be successful? Because it's a private corporation?

Aren't unions hired in by private corporations?

Only companies that don't allow unions in are evil?


You union thugs are ******* cracked.

There was no real middle class in this country before the New Deal and Unions.

True story.

Life in this country became miserable for people who were not extremely wealthy. Had we continued on that path..this country would have went either commie or fascist.

So we should therefore continue to do the same things eighty years later? Tell me, should we throw a sit-in to integrate the lunch counter at Woolworth's tomorrow? Oh, snap! I forgot we took care of that fifty years ago! Tell me, would you like to practice medicine the same way we did in the thirties, when penicillin was about all we had for antibiotics, or would you prefer we get up-to-date? I hate to break it to you, but this is the twenty-first century we live in, not the first part of the twentieth. Care to join the rest of us, or would you rather relive the past? You need a new screen name-how does "Don Quixote" sound? I think it would be appropriate-the real dragons are long gone, so you and your union buds have to go find an innocent company, and PRETEND it's a dragon, just to have something "relevant" to do. Know what I think? I think you need a time machine, so you can go back and re-fight the French Revolution. That way, you can satisfy your thirst for violence by chopping off the heads of those "evil aristocrats" all over again, but at least the people you will be killing have already been dead for 200 years!

 

[hortysir]

You don't think he could have started at the bottom rung and worked his way up anyplace else in the job market and made a comfortable living?
So much for that 'family support' concept, hunh?

I don't know if he could have or not and the question is not relevant because he's quite content with his life the way it is. He likes his job and money-wise he's doing as well as I've ever done and I have a university education. And he would tell you he owes his comfortable middle class existence to the Teamsters Union.

But based on what you've said I suspect you either are in high-school or college and have yet to step into the real world. If I'm right I suggest you prepare yourself for a very unpleasant awakening. Because it isn't as easy as you seem to think it is.

Actually I started out as a dishwasher 25 years ago and am now a manager with the crown-jewel restaurant company in the world and am wrapping up my 30 days of short-term-disability of which I am being paid 100%.
My salary, portfolio and assets, I am certain, outweigh your super-son-in-law and I have never had to pay a dime in union dues.

 

[The Gadfly]

You don't think he could have started at the bottom rung and worked his way up anyplace else in the job market and made a comfortable living?
So much for that 'family support' concept, hunh?

I don't know if he could have or not and the question is not relevant because he's quite content with his life the way it is. He likes his job and money-wise he's doing as well as I've ever done and I have a university education. And he would tell you he owes his comfortable middle class existence to the Teamsters Union.

But based on what you've said I suspect you either are in high-school or college and have yet to step into the real world. If I'm right I suggest you prepare yourself for a very unpleasant awakening. Because it isn't as easy as you seem to think it is.

In that case, you have done a piss-poor job with a university education. Then again, education is usually wasted on a closed mind. Some of us drink from the font of knowledge; apparently, you just gargled. Oh, and by the way, some of us more educated types can drive a truck too; I learned how to handle a semi years ago, just for fun. Last I checked, I was still pretty good with a bulldozer and a track hoe, as well. I learned to handle a farm tractor before I learned to drive a car, but I suppose that doesn't count (no union shops down on the farm). Incidentally, what are the educational requirements for driving a UPS truck? I mean, maybe if the Teamsters strike, I could hire on as a "scab", just to make some extra pocket change, and mix it up with some of your union boys (damn, I still love a good fight-will that be tire irons, baseball bats, or broken bottles?)

 

[FA_Q2]

[...]

Just thought you might like to consider it is likely that it's unions who are most likely to hurt union members, not anybody else.

No it is not likely. What is most likely to hurt union members is the elimination of union protection and benefits.

What that article reveals is some unions have become corrupted. That's true. But what do you believe should be done about it? Eliminate all unions? There are articles that reveal corruption in many police departments, too. Should we eliminate police departments?

I believe government should do all it can to root out and eliminate the corruption in unions -- and in all federal, state and local government agencies.

But throwing out the baby with the bathwater is plainly stupid.

And here is where you fail to connect what is actually happening. Nowhere are they outlawing unions, that is a bullshit talking point from the left. What is actually happening is the removal of special protections and outright theft from their forced constituents the union has been getting. Unions do have a real and valuable purpose. Today, unions do not exist, replaced by these political machines that force membership and dues while having no accountability to anyone.
 

No, I have not seen the movie.

Then I suggest that you do see the movie. ....

Again, I suggest you educate yourself on the history and purpose of unions. And if you don't want to spend the time reading, here is a list of movies you can rent from NetFlix...

Really, please don't tell me you are educating yourself concerning these topics with Hollywood!!! That does explain some things though....

How does that work? Can you provide a specific example? Do you consider scabs who are willing to put you out of a job by working for less the same as ordinary "neighbors" who live next door?

Really, they are somehow less because they are willing to work? Here is your ignorance, believing that YOU deserve that job at that rate simply because you do. They are no less worthy. How does their needs and their willingness to work for less make them less than your neighbor? It is a backward thought process that allows you to believe THEY lost YOUR job because they are willing to work for less. In reality, YOU lost your job because you were asking too much for the product you delivered.

 

[MikeK]

[...] What is actually happening is the removal of special protections and outright theft from their forced constituents the union has been getting. Unions do have a real and valuable purpose. Today, unions do not exist, replaced by these political machines that force membership and dues while having no accountability to anyone.

So I've been hearing -- mainly from such multi-millionaire, corporatist propagandists as Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, et al. But while I have no doubt some unions have become corrupted, as have some components of our federal, state and local governments, I have provided a specific example of a union which enables millions of ordinary truck drivers to lead comfortable middle class lives. In response to that specific example what I'm getting back are personal derision from embittered malcontents, anti-communist ravings from what appears to be a manic drunkard and broadly generalized denouncement of unions without a single specific reference.

So if you are acquainted with specific examples of the things you've denounced unions about, please provide us with some specific details. Otherwise all you're doing here is parroting the same purposeful defamation we can get from the anti-union propaganda machine which operates on behalf of the rising corporatocracy.

If some union has negatively affected you in some way, tell us how.

 

[FA_Q2]

[...] What is actually happening is the removal of special protections and outright theft from their forced constituents the union has been getting. Unions do have a real and valuable purpose. Today, unions do not exist, replaced by these political machines that force membership and dues while having no accountability to anyone.

So I've been hearing -- mainly from such multi-millionaire, corporatist propagandists as Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, et al. But while I have no doubt some unions have become corrupted, as have some components of our federal, state and local governments, I have provided a specific example of a union which enables millions of ordinary truck drivers to lead comfortable middle class lives. In response to that specific example what I'm getting back are personal derision from embittered malcontents, anti-communist ravings from what appears to be a manic drunkard and broadly generalized denouncement of unions without a single specific reference.

So if you are acquainted with specific examples of the things you've denounced unions about, please provide us with some specific details. Otherwise all you're doing here is parroting the same purposeful defamation we can get from the anti-union propaganda machine which operates on behalf of the rising corporatocracy.

If some union has negatively affected you in some way, tell us how.

There are plenty from the asinine union complaint system where I work that gets nothing done (one of our gus is waiting on back pay for over three years) to the assaults and theft that used to happen at our jobsites when I was in construction from hired union thugs (because we are non union) but something tells me that you do not care. I am sure that there have even been some specifics throughout this thread but again, you are not going to listen to those instances. I don't even care about those incidents as they stand anyway because they are examples of symptoms not the problem. I won't go back and forth about such inane crap. My beef lies squarely on the fact that, as a matter of employment, you can be FORCED to pay union dues and that there are entire career fields that require you to be part of a union simply for choosing that career. THOSE specifics are enough. At no time should being a union member be required for any reason whatsoever. You should be provided that protection, the same exact protection that unions are looking for when companies are not allowed to force a union out. Union membership should be something that the workers choose to be a part of as a recourse against management, not a requirement in order to be employed. What is so wrong with asking for workers to once again have the RIGHT to be a part of a union or not rather than taking that right away and REQUIRING said membership simply because you think that unions are the greatest thing since buttered bread.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

Just thought you might like to consider it is likely that it's unions who are most likely to hurt union members, not anybody else.

No it is not likely. What is most likely to hurt union members is the elimination of union protection and benefits.

What that article reveals is some unions have become corrupted. That's true. But what do you believe should be done about it? Eliminate all unions? There are articles that reveal corruption in many police departments, too. Should we eliminate police departments?

I believe government should do all it can to root out and eliminate the corruption in unions -- and in all federal, state and local government agencies.

But throwing out the baby with the bathwater is plainly stupid.

And here is where you fail to connect what is actually happening. Nowhere are they outlawing unions, that is a bullshit talking point from the left. What is actually happening is the removal of special protections and outright theft from their forced constituents the union has been getting. Unions do have a real and valuable purpose. Today, unions do not exist, replaced by these political machines that force membership and dues while having no accountability to anyone.
 

Then I suggest that you do see the movie. ....

Again, I suggest you educate yourself on the history and purpose of unions. And if you don't want to spend the time reading, here is a list of movies you can rent from NetFlix...

Really, please don't tell me you are educating yourself concerning these topics with Hollywood!!! That does explain some things though....

How does that work? Can you provide a specific example? Do you consider scabs who are willing to put you out of a job by working for less the same as ordinary "neighbors" who live next door?

Really, they are somehow less because they are willing to work? Here is your ignorance, believing that YOU deserve that job at that rate simply because you do. They are no less worthy. How does their needs and their willingness to work for less make them less than your neighbor? It is a backward thought process that allows you to believe THEY lost YOUR job because they are willing to work for less. In reality, YOU lost your job because you were asking too much for the product you delivered.

Before there were unions there was unconstrained capitalism, meaning employees witout high-level skills were voluntary slaves. They were paid a minimal wage. They were forced to work 12 -14 hour days, on weekends and holidays, with no compensatory overtime. They had no paid vacations and no benefits whatsoever. And if they complained they were fired and replaced by what came to be known as "scabs." And if it were not for the union movement those conditions would exist today.

So there is a good reason why scabs should not be tolerated and it has nothing to do with needs, willingness and worthiness. When the bosses are unconstrainted by union regulations all labor will be scab labor and the scabs will be scabbed until what today is known as middle class would still be the massive volunteer slave class which was constructively transformed by the union movement.

So, again, if you don't wish to spend time reading about the union movement, rent and watch the list of movies I've recommended. Just because they are movies doesn't mean they aren't educational. And what you've said above makes it clear that you need some education on this topic.

Harlan County USA
The Molly McGuires
On The Waterfront
The Organizer
Native Land
Norma Rae
Matewan
Hoffa

 

[FA_Q2]

No it is not likely. What is most likely to hurt union members is the elimination of union protection and benefits.

What that article reveals is some unions have become corrupted. That's true. But what do you believe should be done about it? Eliminate all unions? There are articles that reveal corruption in many police departments, too. Should we eliminate police departments?

I believe government should do all it can to root out and eliminate the corruption in unions -- and in all federal, state and local government agencies.

But throwing out the baby with the bathwater is plainly stupid.

And here is where you fail to connect what is actually happening. Nowhere are they outlawing unions, that is a bullshit talking point from the left. What is actually happening is the removal of special protections and outright theft from their forced constituents the union has been getting. Unions do have a real and valuable purpose. Today, unions do not exist, replaced by these political machines that force membership and dues while having no accountability to anyone.
 


Really, please don't tell me you are educating yourself concerning these topics with Hollywood!!! That does explain some things though....

How does that work? Can you provide a specific example? Do you consider scabs who are willing to put you out of a job by working for less the same as ordinary "neighbors" who live next door?

Really, they are somehow less because they are willing to work? Here is your ignorance, believing that YOU deserve that job at that rate simply because you do. They are no less worthy. How does their needs and their willingness to work for less make them less than your neighbor? It is a backward thought process that allows you to believe THEY lost YOUR job because they are willing to work for less. In reality, YOU lost your job because you were asking too much for the product you delivered.

Before there were unions there was unconstrained capitalism, meaning employees witout high-level skills were voluntary slaves. They were paid a minimal wage. They were forced to work 12 -14 hour days, on weekends and holidays, with no compensatory overtime. They had no paid vacations and no benefits whatsoever. And if they complained they were fired and replaced by what came to be known as "scabs." And if it were not for the union movement those conditions would exist today.

So there is a good reason why scabs should not be tolerated and it has nothing to do with needs, willingness and worthiness. When the bosses are unconstrainted by union regulations all labor will be scab labor and the scabs will be scabbed until what today is known as middle class would still be the massive volunteer slave class which was constructively transformed by the union movement.

So, again, if you don't wish to spend time reading about the union movement, rent and watch the list of movies I've recommended. Just because they are movies doesn't mean they aren't educational. And what you've said above makes it clear that you need some education on this topic.

Harlan County USA
The Molly McGuires
On The Waterfront
The Organizer
Native Land
Norma Rae
Matewan
Hoffa

And then unions along with a push in government to pass regulations (mostly from the unions) most of that was taken care of. Now, how does that address the points that I raised at all? That's right, it does not. Try again and please do not list your bullshit movies again. You do not watch a movie if you truly want some education on a subject, particularly as large as this one. You can't fit any real education in 120 minutes particularly from Hollywood types that do not care to actually represent anything as accurate or from more than one biased view.

 

[The Gadfly]

No it is not likely. What is most likely to hurt union members is the elimination of union protection and benefits.

What that article reveals is some unions have become corrupted. That's true. But what do you believe should be done about it? Eliminate all unions? There are articles that reveal corruption in many police departments, too. Should we eliminate police departments?

I believe government should do all it can to root out and eliminate the corruption in unions -- and in all federal, state and local government agencies.

But throwing out the baby with the bathwater is plainly stupid.

And here is where you fail to connect what is actually happening. Nowhere are they outlawing unions, that is a bullshit talking point from the left. What is actually happening is the removal of special protections and outright theft from their forced constituents the union has been getting. Unions do have a real and valuable purpose. Today, unions do not exist, replaced by these political machines that force membership and dues while having no accountability to anyone.
 


Really, please don't tell me you are educating yourself concerning these topics with Hollywood!!! That does explain some things though....

How does that work? Can you provide a specific example? Do you consider scabs who are willing to put you out of a job by working for less the same as ordinary "neighbors" who live next door?

Really, they are somehow less because they are willing to work? Here is your ignorance, believing that YOU deserve that job at that rate simply because you do. They are no less worthy. How does their needs and their willingness to work for less make them less than your neighbor? It is a backward thought process that allows you to believe THEY lost YOUR job because they are willing to work for less. In reality, YOU lost your job because you were asking too much for the product you delivered.

Before there were unions there was unconstrained capitalism, meaning employees witout high-level skills were voluntary slaves. They were paid a minimal wage. They were forced to work 12 -14 hour days, on weekends and holidays, with no compensatory overtime. They had no paid vacations and no benefits whatsoever. And if they complained they were fired and replaced by what came to be known as "scabs." And if it were not for the union movement those conditions would exist today.

So there is a good reason why scabs should not be tolerated and it has nothing to do with needs, willingness and worthiness. When the bosses are unconstrainted by union regulations all labor will be scab labor and the scabs will be scabbed until what today is known as middle class would still be the massive volunteer slave class which was constructively transformed by the union movement.

So, again, if you don't wish to spend time reading about the union movement, rent and watch the list of movies I've recommended. Just because they are movies doesn't mean they aren't educational. And what you've said above makes it clear that you need some education on this topic.

Harlan County USA
The Molly McGuires
On The Waterfront
The Organizer
Native Land
Norma Rae
Matewan
Hoffa

COMPLETE, TOTAL, UTTER BULLSHIT! We don't have closed union shops down here, we have right-to-work laws that provide non-union workers the right to work without joining a union...and we have a thriving middle class, too, thank you very much! All you want is special privilege, inflated pay for less work, and everyone forced to toe the union line and pay union dues, so you can exclude real working Americans who don't share your parasite views and are actually willing to work from a damn living from your "union shops'. You want success? Then do what I did, and earn it! What's the matter, can't compete with the rest of us? Afraid to try? You union guys slay me, you truly do. You not only have to fight like dogs in a pack, hell, you are afraid you can't make it in the real world! God, what a bunch of wusses! Can't play by the same rules as everyone else, huh? You're what, seventy-five, and you STILL haven't grown up?

 

[MikeK]

And here is where you fail to connect what is actually happening. Nowhere are they outlawing unions, that is a bullshit talking point from the left. What is actually happening is the removal of special protections and outright theft from their forced constituents the union has been getting. Unions do have a real and valuable purpose. Today, unions do not exist, replaced by these political machines that force membership and dues while having no accountability to anyone.
 


Really, please don't tell me you are educating yourself concerning these topics with Hollywood!!! That does explain some things though....


Really, they are somehow less because they are willing to work? Here is your ignorance, believing that YOU deserve that job at that rate simply because you do. They are no less worthy. How does their needs and their willingness to work for less make them less than your neighbor? It is a backward thought process that allows you to believe THEY lost YOUR job because they are willing to work for less. In reality, YOU lost your job because you were asking too much for the product you delivered.

Before there were unions there was unconstrained capitalism, meaning employees witout high-level skills were voluntary slaves. They were paid a minimal wage. They were forced to work 12 -14 hour days, on weekends and holidays, with no compensatory overtime. They had no paid vacations and no benefits whatsoever. And if they complained they were fired and replaced by what came to be known as "scabs." And if it were not for the union movement those conditions would exist today.

So there is a good reason why scabs should not be tolerated and it has nothing to do with needs, willingness and worthiness. When the bosses are unconstrainted by union regulations all labor will be scab labor and the scabs will be scabbed until what today is known as middle class would still be the massive volunteer slave class which was constructively transformed by the union movement.

So, again, if you don't wish to spend time reading about the union movement, rent and watch the list of movies I've recommended. Just because they are movies doesn't mean they aren't educational. And what you've said above makes it clear that you need some education on this topic.

Harlan County USA
The Molly McGuires
On The Waterfront
The Organizer
Native Land
Norma Rae
Matewan
Hoffa

And then unions along with a push in government to pass regulations (mostly from the unions) most of that was taken care of. Now, how does that address the points that I raised at all? That's right, it does not. Try again and please do not list your bullshit movies again. You do not watch a movie if you truly want some education on a subject, particularly as large as this one. You can't fit any real education in 120 minutes particularly from Hollywood types that do not care to actually represent anything as accurate or from more than one biased view.

Yet again -- So, again, if you don't wish to spend time reading about the union movement, rent and watch the list of movies I've recommended.

 

[Immanuel]

Before there were unions there was unconstrained capitalism, meaning employees witout high-level skills were voluntary slaves. They were paid a minimal wage. They were forced to work 12 -14 hour days, on weekends and holidays, with no compensatory overtime. They had no paid vacations and no benefits whatsoever. And if they complained they were fired and replaced by what came to be known as "scabs." And if it were not for the union movement those conditions would exist today.

So there is a good reason why scabs should not be tolerated and it has nothing to do with needs, willingness and worthiness. When the bosses are unconstrainted by union regulations all labor will be scab labor and the scabs will be scabbed until what today is known as middle class would still be the massive volunteer slave class which was constructively transformed by the union movement.

So, again, if you don't wish to spend time reading about the union movement, rent and watch the list of movies I've recommended. Just because they are movies doesn't mean they aren't educational. And what you've said above makes it clear that you need some education on this topic.

Harlan County USA
The Molly McGuires
On The Waterfront
The Organizer
Native Land
Norma Rae
Matewan
Hoffa

And then unions along with a push in government to pass regulations (mostly from the unions) most of that was taken care of. Now, how does that address the points that I raised at all? That's right, it does not. Try again and please do not list your bullshit movies again. You do not watch a movie if you truly want some education on a subject, particularly as large as this one. You can't fit any real education in 120 minutes particularly from Hollywood types that do not care to actually represent anything as accurate or from more than one biased view.

Yet again -- So, again, if you don't wish to spend time reading about the union movement, rent and watch the list of movies I've recommended.

Are you really trying to claim that those films are accurate portrayals of the movement? Do you realize that Hollywood has a very liberal bias and therefore they are not reliable sources?

This is like asking us to watch Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9 11 as an accurate description of George Bush's Presidency.

Immie