Ukraine proxy war?

[shoshi]

It seems Putin sees this as a proxy war with America and NATO. How far could it go? Could it get to the point America gets directly involved?

 

[White 6]

It seems Putin sees this as a proxy war with America and NATO. How far could it go? Could it get to the point America gets directly involved?

It could involve Americans, not necessarily the US Military.

Elon Musk offers to buy Russian Army for $100, half-empty bottle of Stoli

Now that's a steal.

www.duffelblog.com

 

[johngaltshrugged]

I think both sides see this as a continuation of the proxy war in Syria that didn't end in the US favor.
Then again, outside of DT taking down the Obama ISIS Caliphate in a few months, it's been a long time since the military was allowed to win anything

 

[night_son]

It seems Putin sees this as a proxy war with America and NATO. How far could it go? Could it get to the point America gets directly involved?

These days it is impolite to declare war on a near peer enemy. Proxy wars are back in vogue, baby!

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

These days it is impolite to declare war on a near peer enemy. Proxy wars are back in vogue, baby!

1812 Called. It Wants Its History Back.

NYETO financed, armed, and trained the Yookies. It drafted their soldiers and civilians as a substitute for its own troops being there, though it does have boots on the ground as advisors.

 

[Silver Cat]

It seems Putin sees this as a proxy war with America and NATO. How far could it go? Could it get to the point America gets directly involved?

Biden claims, that America is already involved - skyrocketed fuel prices is the result of his Administration's incompetent foreign policy and support of his personal Ukrainian assets.

 

[para bellum]

It's a "proxy war" because that's the only way Russia can excuse getting their ass kicked by a military that is a fraction of the size of Russia's.

If Putin can't blame that on America, then who?

 

[Baron]

It seems Putin sees this as a proxy war with America and NATO. How far could it go? Could it get to the point America gets directly involved?

USA is already involved and since 1945

 

[Toro]

 

[Toro]

 

[skye]

NATO is itching for a war.... this is a total proxy war using Ukraine as the front.

Stupid NATO.

 

[Open Bolt]

"John Mearsheimer, University of Chicago: Well, I think, initially, the Biden administration thought the best we could do in Ukraine was to stymie the Russian offensive by assisting the Ukrainians.

But when it became clear that the Ukrainians were doing very well on the battlefield against the Russians, we escalated and eventually greatly escalated our goals. And we are now bent on inflicting a decisive defeat on Russian forces in Ukraine, in other words, beating them decisively on the battlefield, and, in addition, wrecking the Russian economy with sanctions.

And all of this is designed to greatly weaken Russian power. Secretary of Defense Austin has made this very clear. And, in fact, one could argue what he and his colleagues in the Biden administration are interested in doing is knocking Russia out of the great power ranks."

 

[Open Bolt]

I think both sides see this as a continuation of the proxy war in Syria that didn't end in the US favor.
Then again, outside of DT taking down the Obama ISIS Caliphate in a few months, it's been a long time since the military was allowed to win anything

There was no proxy war in Syria. The only thing the US did there is oppose Islamic State.

I'm no fan of Barack Obama, but he did not support Islamic State. He had us there to oppose Islamic State.

It was Bashar al-Assad who supported Islamic State.

 

[para bellum]

..."John Mearsheimer, University of Chicago: Well, I think, initially, the Biden administration thought the best we could do in Ukraine was to stymie the Russian offensive by assisting the Ukrainians.

But when it became clear that the Ukrainians were doing very well on the battlefield against the Russians, we escalated and eventually greatly escalated our goals. And we are now bent on inflicting a decisive defeat on Russian forces in Ukraine, in other words, beating them decisively on the battlefield, and, in addition, wrecking the Russian economy with sanctions.

And all of this is designed to greatly weaken Russian power. Secretary of Defense Austin has made this very clear. And, in fact, one could argue what he and his colleagues in the Biden administration are interested in doing is knocking Russia out of the great power ranks."

I think this is kind of "true and not true". Biden's initial response was to try to evacuate Zelensky. NATO expected Ukraine would be overrun in 96 hours.

Zelensky told him to pound sand, and Ukrainians fought back. Effectively and skillfully.

The US only provided 180 Javelins in all of 2021, and 300 more in January. The first countries to actually step up were Eastern European countries- Estonia, Slovakia, Poland. The US and the rest of Europe got on board only after it was clear that the Russian army was incompetent.

Zelensky doesn't treat Biden and European leaders with deference. He says right out, if you want to come to Kiev, don't show up empty handed. When he meets them, he's dressed in a t-shirt. That's not how puppets treat their masters.

If this was a NATO proxy war, NATO would have been providing heavy weapons and training up Ukrainian crews before the invasion even happened. It's taken 2 months to get the ball rolling, and a lot of Ukrainian lives have been lost in that time.

The author is right that now we see a possible defeat for Russia, and are emboldened by that. The US and NATO are providing a lot more help now. So opportunism on the part of NATO- yes, definitely.

Logistically it's going to be a nightmare for Ukraine. Low numbers of disparate modern systems like PzH2000 and Caesar will be very hard to keep in the fight without logistical support. The first ones to break down will be the parts supply for the rest. Crews will be dedicated to those systems only. A Caesar crew can't operate a PzH2000 without more training. They are potent weapons, but not really game-changers.

The towed artillery is better- simple to operate and sturdy, and in numbers enough to make a difference where they are used. 200K+ Excalibur/PGK 155mm shells can inflict a world of hurt on the other side.

 

[johngaltshrugged]

There was no proxy war in Syria. The only thing the US did there is oppose Islamic State.

I'm no fan of Barack Obama, but he did not support Islamic State. He had us there to oppose Islamic State.

It was Bashar al-Assad who supported Islamic State.

Yeah, he did a real bang up job of opposing the Islamic State, other than when it expanded into Iraq, Libya, Syria & even Africa. If that was Obama "opposing" them, the entire region would've been better off if he minded his own business.

Do you really believe that BS about Russia & the US were simply fighting against ISIS together? Russia was backing Assad while we were backing the anti-Assad rebels.
We were looking for regime change & they wanted status quo.
Both countries supplying & supporting separate sides.
Sounds suspiciously like a covert proxy war to me

 

[ESay]

If this was a NATO proxy war, NATO would have been providing heavy weapons and training up Ukrainian crews before the invasion even happened. It's taken 2 months to get the ball rolling, and a lot of Ukrainian lives have been lost in that time

The US, British and Canadian training missions had been reported numerous times before the war. Some people say that drastical improvement in quality of Ukrainian Army since 2014 to 2022 was mainly thanks to Western instructors and military advisors.

Also, the US began shipment of weapons to Ukraine approx two months before the war. Though, they could be called not 'heavy'. Portable anti-tank and anti-aircraft systems, primarily.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

It was Bashar al-Assad who supported Islamic State.

In a Similar Fake Monolith, the Chinese Communists Had Hated the Russian Communists As Far Back As 1927


How can you say that? Assad is Shiite; ISIS is Sunni. It was a three-way war, with both mortal enemies being against the Arab Springers.

If ISIS had been successful, they would have brought their psychotic bloodbath into Iran, which is Shiite. There they would link up with the Taliban, who are also Sunni.

Muzzies killing Muzzies. That's all good. We should encourage it.

 

[para bellum]

The US, British and Canadian training missions had been reported numerous times before the war. Some people say that drastical improvement in quality of Ukrainian Army since 2014 to 2022 was mainly thanks to Western instructors and military advisors.

I was referring to the training of Ukrainian crews on NATO weapons systems.

The training with NATO began in 2004, and was about building interoperability with non-NATO allies participating in KFOR, and ISAF. It wasn't Ukraine centric- everyone in KFOR or ISAF was invited, and even Russia was participating at first- well sort of. The Russian participants were more interested in shopping at the base PX than attending class.

Ukraine established a training center at Yavoriv after the 2014 invasion, modeled after the NATO training center in Germany. In 2015, NATO established Joint Multinational Training Group-Ukraine (JTMG-U), run by the 7th Army Training Command and manned by Task Force Gator- the 53rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, Florida Army National Guard. (who left Ukraine and returned to Germany after the invasion).

They expanded the earlier training to include things like training Ukrainian battalions as combined arms units, and Ukraine formally established an NCO corps with standardized training and leadership requirements.

So definitely classroom training with Ukraine's armed forces had been going on for a some time. But the focus was building an NCO corp and modernizing the structure and doctrine of the AFU.

That doesn't make this war a NATO proxy war, and there was no training of the sort we are seeing today- small units trained up on NATO weapon systems, with the intention of going directly into combat.

Also, the US began shipment of weapons to Ukraine approx two months before the war. Though, they could be called not 'heavy'. Portable anti-tank and anti-aircraft systems, primarily.

No stingers. 180 Javelins in 2021, and 300 more in January. That's all. Everything else has been post Feb-24.

A few more Javelins and the first Stingers trickled in in March, but the real deliveries didn't start until April.

 

[Litwin]

How far could it go?

NOT VERY FAR , WITH HIS 1 % OF THE WORLD gdp

SOON >

 

[ESay]

I was referring to the training of Ukrainian crews on NATO weapons systems.

The training with NATO began in 2004, and was about building interoperability with non-NATO allies participating in KFOR, and ISAF. It wasn't Ukraine centric- everyone in KFOR or ISAF was invited, and even Russia was participating at first- well sort of. The Russian participants were more interested in shopping at the base PX than attending class.

Ukraine established a training center at Yavoriv after the 2014 invasion, modeled after the NATO training center in Germany. In 2015, NATO established Joint Multinational Training Group-Ukraine (JTMG-U), run by the 7th Army Training Command and manned by Task Force Gator- the 53rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, Florida Army National Guard. (who left Ukraine and returned to Germany after the invasion).

They expanded the earlier training to include things like training Ukrainian battalions as combined arms units, and Ukraine formally established an NCO corps with standardized training and leadership requirements.

So definitely classroom training with Ukraine's armed forces had been going on for a some time. But the focus was building an NCO corp and modernizing the structure and doctrine of the AFU.

That doesn't make this war a NATO proxy war, and there was no training of the sort we are seeing today- small units trained up on NATO weapon systems, with the intention of going directly into combat.

No stingers. 180 Javelins in 2021, and 300 more in January. That's all. Everything else has been post Feb-24.

A few more Javelins and the first Stingers trickled in in March, but the real deliveries didn't start until April.

From the mid-January to the mid-Februsry there were 15 planes that delivered weapons to Ukraine through Boryspol Airport.

That is the first link I found (in Ukrainian)

В Україну зі США прибуло ще 130 тонн оборонної зброї – Резніков

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