CDZ Twenty Billion Dollar Fine, "we can afford it"

[jc456]

I don't understand the difference? Individuals run corporations what would be different about an individual in corporate and individual outside of corporations, please explain!

The complaint is that the corporation itself is given the status of a person. or at least personhood. Why is this "person" given preferential treatment? Even when it commits crime that cause the loss of lives or causes thousands to lose their retirements, it doesn't have to do the time. It just arrogantly says it can afford the fine. And that fine is probably deductible also. Something we second class citizens can't do. We have a case here of unequal treatment of persons.

Maybe because it's impossible to treat everyone and everything equally. Power will always do what it wants to do. It's a fact.

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

and humans who have the power to make laws aren't corruptible ? Think about it.

I did for about three seconds. There are checks and balances in passing a new law, not so in Laissez Faire Capitalsim.

Nor in an Obama dictatorship

 

[jc456]

Maybe because it's impossible to treat everyone and everything equally. Power will always do what it wants to do. It's a fact.

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

and humans who have the power to make laws aren't corruptible ? Think about it.

Sure, most are. Look to DC to see how MOST of Gov't has been captured today. Perhaps we could try GOOD GOV'T POLICY instead of the right wings mythical laissez faire BS and start trying to clean it up? Start by getting Corps completely out of politics like the Founders wanted? Second get money out of politics? Go back to enforcing laws that stopped the monopolies that has flourished since Reagan ignored them and every Prez since? That's a start right?

No---There will ALWAYS be a "decider" who has more power than other people and it will never be fair. Who do you suggest establish "good policy" ? Liberals ?

Who? Why not conservative policy? After alll they have a LONG history of being on the correct side of history right? PLEASE let me know just ONE conservative policy that's worked as promised?

Libs? They gave US the PROGRESSIVE policies that created the worlds largest middle class. You know, labor laws, union rights, SS, etc

Or we can follow the cons/GOP who gave US the first GOP great depression, the Reagan S&L crisis or Dubya's subprime bubble?

And yet the eighties was the favorite decade

 

[jc456]

For myself, I dispise thieves, crooks, and cheats.

Is a corporation a man or a woman? Should it go to men's prison or women's prison?

Funny, or not so. How does the criminal justice system punish law breakers?

1. take away their freedom (jail or prison, suspend/revoke licenses)
2. take away their money (fines and restitution)
3. take away their life (capital punishment)

What's appropriate when a corporation violates the law, might include any or all of the above. The more egregious the crime, the greater the punishment. Decision makers, and that must include the corporate officers, should be held accountable for point one and two; the corporation, if warranted, should suffer three (that is revocation of its charter and all of its assets sold).

I don't understand the difference? Individuals run corporations what would be different about an individual in corporate and individual outside of corporations, please explain!

The complaint is that the corporation itself is given the status of a person. or at least personhood. Why is this "person" given preferential treatment? Even when it commits crime that cause the loss of lives or causes thousands to lose their retirements, it doesn't have to do the time. It just arrogantly says it can afford the fine. And that fine is probably deductible also. Something we second class citizens can't do. We have a case here of unequal treatment of persons.

I get your point and agree; I found your last sentence funny, not so when Romney uttered the memorable, "Corporations are people too". A corporation has no conscience, feels no pain, can't love or hate, has no empathy or sense of good or evil.

Then who or what runs a corporation?

 

[dblack]

Since corporations are considered individuals, who is going to jail??? Oh, the rich walk ..at least the individual did...

The buck should stop at the corner offices, and the fines should be paid by the corporate officers from their personal stash. Why should the stock holders be punished?

Because they benefit from the actions of the crooks that run their companies. If a sole owner of a business hired someone to run their business for them and said "Do whatever you have to to maximize profits. I don't wanna hear about the details, just do it." - well, they'd be held responsible, in part, for whatever the person they hired did

The fact that stockholders hardly ever take a hit when their companies play dirty is one of the biggest problems with the current state of corporate law.

 

[dblack]

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

This is incredibly revealing. Absolute power can never be achieved with economic power. That's what makes it fundamentally different than political power and why political power is so much more dangerous.

 

[Dad2three]

Like

The complaint is that the corporation itself is given the status of a person. or at least personhood. Why is this "person" given preferential treatment? Even when it commits crime that cause the loss of lives or causes thousands to lose their retirements, it doesn't have to do the time. It just arrogantly says it can afford the fine. And that fine is probably deductible also. Something we second class citizens can't do. We have a case here of unequal treatment of persons.

Maybe because it's impossible to treat everyone and everything equally. Power will always do what it wants to do. It's a fact.

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

and humans who have the power to make laws aren't corruptible ? Think about it.

Sure, most are. Look to DC to see how MOST of Gov't has been captured today. Perhaps we could try GOOD GOV'T POLICY instead of the right wings mythical laissez faire BS and start trying to clean it up? Start by getting Corps completely out of politics like the Founders wanted? Second get money out of politics? Go back to enforcing laws that stopped the monopolies that has flourished since Reagan ignored them and every Prez since? That's a start right?

Union money? Sounds good!

Without false premises, distortions and lies, what would right wingers EVER have???

 

[Dad2three]

The complaint is that the corporation itself is given the status of a person. or at least personhood. Why is this "person" given preferential treatment? Even when it commits crime that cause the loss of lives or causes thousands to lose their retirements, it doesn't have to do the time. It just arrogantly says it can afford the fine. And that fine is probably deductible also. Something we second class citizens can't do. We have a case here of unequal treatment of persons.

Maybe because it's impossible to treat everyone and everything equally. Power will always do what it wants to do. It's a fact.

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

and humans who have the power to make laws aren't corruptible ? Think about it.

I did for about three seconds. There are checks and balances in passing a new law, not so in Laissez Faire Capitalsim.

Nor in an Obama dictatorship

 

[Dad2three]

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

and humans who have the power to make laws aren't corruptible ? Think about it.

Sure, most are. Look to DC to see how MOST of Gov't has been captured today. Perhaps we could try GOOD GOV'T POLICY instead of the right wings mythical laissez faire BS and start trying to clean it up? Start by getting Corps completely out of politics like the Founders wanted? Second get money out of politics? Go back to enforcing laws that stopped the monopolies that has flourished since Reagan ignored them and every Prez since? That's a start right?

No---There will ALWAYS be a "decider" who has more power than other people and it will never be fair. Who do you suggest establish "good policy" ? Liberals ?

Who? Why not conservative policy? After alll they have a LONG history of being on the correct side of history right? PLEASE let me know just ONE conservative policy that's worked as promised?

Libs? They gave US the PROGRESSIVE policies that created the worlds largest middle class. You know, labor laws, union rights, SS, etc

Or we can follow the cons/GOP who gave US the first GOP great depression, the Reagan S&L crisis or Dubya's subprime bubble?

And yet the eighties was the favorite decade

Yeah, Ronnie was lucky enough to push out his credit bubble onto Poppy Bush!

 

[Wry Catcher]

Since corporations are considered individuals, who is going to jail??? Oh, the rich walk ..at least the individual did...

The buck should stop at the corner offices, and the fines should be paid by the corporate officers from their personal stash. Why should the stock holders be punished?

Because they benefit from the actions of the crooks that run their companies. If a sole owner of a business hired someone to run their business for them and said "Do whatever you have to to maximize profits. I don't wanna hear about the details, just do it." - well, they'd be held responsible, in part, for whatever the person they hired did

The fact that stockholders hardly ever take a hit when their companies play dirty is one of the biggest problems with the current state of corporate law.

Stockholders are not culpable for a couple of reasons:

• Most invest on the recommendation of a broker
• Pension funds harm those unaware of how their future benefits are invested
• Most don't vote, they default to a proxy on hiring, retention, etc.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

This is incredibly revealing. Absolute power can never be achieved with economic power. That's what makes it fundamentally different than political power and why political power is so much more dangerous.

When Enron used it's economic power to deregulate electricity and create chaos in the market, the quote I used above seems to be less hyperbole than you suggest; money talks and legislators listen, making economic power the father of many abuses of political power.

Given CU v. FEC and McCutcheon v. FEC how can we differentiate between economic power and political power? The power elite own Congress and the office of the President.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Corporations, as people, can be punished. They can be fined. Their stock holders can be made to refund their dividends, and if their behavior is criminal enough, they can be executed. The government takes receivership and sells off its component parts.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Since corporations are considered individuals, who is going to jail??? Oh, the rich walk ..at least the individual did...

The buck should stop at the corner offices, and the fines should be paid by the corporate officers from their personal stash. Why should the stock holders be punished?

Because they benefit from the actions of the crooks that run their companies. If a sole owner of a business hired someone to run their business for them and said "Do whatever you have to to maximize profits. I don't wanna hear about the details, just do it." - well, they'd be held responsible, in part, for whatever the person they hired did

The fact that stockholders hardly ever take a hit when their companies play dirty is one of the biggest problems with the current state of corporate law.

Stockholders are not culpable for a couple of reasons:

• Most invest on the recommendation of a broker
• Pension funds harm those unaware of how their future benefits are invested
• Most don't vote, they default to a proxy on hiring, retention, etc.

That shield will not withstand a criminal conviction. The dividends be come the criminal product and must be given back, perhaps with interest.

 

[dblack]

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

This is incredibly revealing. Absolute power can never be achieved with economic power. That's what makes it fundamentally different than political power and why political power is so much more dangerous.

When Enron used it's economic power to deregulate electricity and create chaos in the market, the quote I used above seems to be less hyperbole than you suggest; money talks and legislators listen, making economic power the father of many abuses of political power.

Enron didn't use it's economic power to reregulate electricity. Government officials did that. Corporations have no power to legislate.

Given CU v. FEC and McCutcheon v. FEC how can we differentiate between economic power and political power? The power elite own Congress and the office of the President.

We differentiate them by keeping them separate. That's why it's so frustrating that so many people want to merge them.

 

[jc456]

Like

Maybe because it's impossible to treat everyone and everything equally. Power will always do what it wants to do. It's a fact.

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

and humans who have the power to make laws aren't corruptible ? Think about it.

Sure, most are. Look to DC to see how MOST of Gov't has been captured today. Perhaps we could try GOOD GOV'T POLICY instead of the right wings mythical laissez faire BS and start trying to clean it up? Start by getting Corps completely out of politics like the Founders wanted? Second get money out of politics? Go back to enforcing laws that stopped the monopolies that has flourished since Reagan ignored them and every Prez since? That's a start right?

Union money? Sounds good!

Without false premises, distortions and lies, what would right wingers EVER have???

We have the truth and you can't handle the truth.

 

[jc456]

and humans who have the power to make laws aren't corruptible ? Think about it.

Sure, most are. Look to DC to see how MOST of Gov't has been captured today. Perhaps we could try GOOD GOV'T POLICY instead of the right wings mythical laissez faire BS and start trying to clean it up? Start by getting Corps completely out of politics like the Founders wanted? Second get money out of politics? Go back to enforcing laws that stopped the monopolies that has flourished since Reagan ignored them and every Prez since? That's a start right?

No---There will ALWAYS be a "decider" who has more power than other people and it will never be fair. Who do you suggest establish "good policy" ? Liberals ?

Who? Why not conservative policy? After alll they have a LONG history of being on the correct side of history right? PLEASE let me know just ONE conservative policy that's worked as promised?

Libs? They gave US the PROGRESSIVE policies that created the worlds largest middle class. You know, labor laws, union rights, SS, etc

Or we can follow the cons/GOP who gave US the first GOP great depression, the Reagan S&L crisis or Dubya's subprime bubble?

And yet the eighties was the favorite decade

Yeah, Ronnie was lucky enough to push out his credit bubble onto Poppy Bush!

Dude, show me the % on food stamps!

 

[jc456]

Maybe because it's impossible to treat everyone and everything equally. Power will always do what it wants to do. It's a fact.

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

and humans who have the power to make laws aren't corruptible ? Think about it.

I did for about three seconds. There are checks and balances in passing a new law, not so in Laissez Faire Capitalsim.

Nor in an Obama dictatorship

Hahaha dude you're clueless

 

[JakeStarkey]

Unregulated capitalism is monstrous, it creates monsters and other enemies of the people.

 

[Dad2three]

Sure, most are. Look to DC to see how MOST of Gov't has been captured today. Perhaps we could try GOOD GOV'T POLICY instead of the right wings mythical laissez faire BS and start trying to clean it up? Start by getting Corps completely out of politics like the Founders wanted? Second get money out of politics? Go back to enforcing laws that stopped the monopolies that has flourished since Reagan ignored them and every Prez since? That's a start right?

No---There will ALWAYS be a "decider" who has more power than other people and it will never be fair. Who do you suggest establish "good policy" ? Liberals ?

Who? Why not conservative policy? After alll they have a LONG history of being on the correct side of history right? PLEASE let me know just ONE conservative policy that's worked as promised?

Libs? They gave US the PROGRESSIVE policies that created the worlds largest middle class. You know, labor laws, union rights, SS, etc

Or we can follow the cons/GOP who gave US the first GOP great depression, the Reagan S&L crisis or Dubya's subprime bubble?

And yet the eighties was the favorite decade

Yeah, Ronnie was lucky enough to push out his credit bubble onto Poppy Bush!

Dude, show me the % on food stamps!

You mean 30+ years of trickle down? Yep

 

[Dad2three]

Like

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

and humans who have the power to make laws aren't corruptible ? Think about it.

Sure, most are. Look to DC to see how MOST of Gov't has been captured today. Perhaps we could try GOOD GOV'T POLICY instead of the right wings mythical laissez faire BS and start trying to clean it up? Start by getting Corps completely out of politics like the Founders wanted? Second get money out of politics? Go back to enforcing laws that stopped the monopolies that has flourished since Reagan ignored them and every Prez since? That's a start right?

Union money? Sounds good!

Without false premises, distortions and lies, what would right wingers EVER have???

We have the truth and you can't handle the truth.

PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE, just ONE policy conservatives have EVER been on the correct side of history on in the US?? lol

 

[Wry Catcher]

Thus human beings must make the rules and enforce them. Lassiez Faire Capitalism will always allow power to grow without a governor. As we all learned, but some have forgotten: "power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

This is incredibly revealing. Absolute power can never be achieved with economic power. That's what makes it fundamentally different than political power and why political power is so much more dangerous.

When Enron used it's economic power to deregulate electricity and create chaos in the market, the quote I used above seems to be less hyperbole than you suggest; money talks and legislators listen, making economic power the father of many abuses of political power.

Enron didn't use it's economic power to reregulate electricity. Government officials did that. Corporations have no power to legislate.

Given CU v. FEC and McCutcheon v. FEC how can we differentiate between economic power and political power? The power elite own Congress and the office of the President.

We differentiate them by keeping them separate. That's why it's so frustrating that so many people want to merge them.

Kenny Boy had White House access and The Congress can be lobbied, Members can be bribed, err giving campaign donations, or denied donations and opponents can be funded to replace those who won't play. Do to CU v. FEC and McCutcheon v. FEC millions of dollars can be spent on radio, TV and print ads to 'buy' voters by shame organizations (paid for by Americans for apple pie, baseball and Freedom).

Why do you and others seem to think deregulation is a good thing for the American People - see:

California - Timeline Blackout FRONTLINE PBS