TULIP (God calls some to atheism)

[presonorek]

Which one am I? The liars who pretends God is real?

As far as I can tell you reject the parts of the Bible that are stupid.

You aren’t pretending. You reject the God in the Bible with a vengeance. So you are an atheist just like me. We are both atheists of Zeus and atheists of Yahweh. I’m not able to decipher which god you follow. You have all the attributes of a free thinking atheist as far as I can tell.

Do you believe a man can live in a big fish for 3 days? Do you believe snakes talk? Do you believe donkeys talk? Do you believe Jesus was dead for 3 days and then came back alive and is still living today? Do you believe Enoch is still living today?

I’d venture to say that you would say no to at least one of these things. That makes you a free thinker with the ability to think rationally.

So you are neither a lying Christian nor a stupid Christian. There is nothing Christian about you at all.

 

[presonorek]

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. One of those things is being OK with you pursuing the intellectually stimulating dead end of atheism. I say go and enjoy your atheism. Be all the atheist you can be. Because I am really enjoying your rationalizations of how atheism has made you happier. Because everyone knows that people show how happy they are about something by criticizing the path they aren't taking. Nothing says you love what you are doing by talking about what you aren't doing.

You are extremely wrong. I was way way way much happier when I was a believing Christian. Atheism is a much more miserable existence. Where did you get the idea that atheists are happier than Christians?

Personally I was just happier as a Christian. I also observe Christians to be much happier than atheists.

Do atheists not have a sarcasm detector?

Your apparent mode of operation is to criticize what you don't believe to arrive at what you do believe without ever having to examine what you believe. You don't have beliefs you have arguments against beliefs. You might as well be building your castle in sand.

Again... God is reality and the only way anyone will ever see reality is to die to self. When you can do that you will see how God has worked in your life.

This whole thread is an extension of Calvinistic doctrine. If Calvinism is true then atheism would be a likely outcome for those who God chooses not to save.

You don’t seem familiar with Calvinism. You fashioned this thread into a topic that you liked better.

 

[Taz]

He has been dead for over 500 years and is considered to be the greatest theologian to ever live.

Greater than Jesus. Wow!

 

[Taz]

Has anyone ever spoken to God?

Only those who pray.

Has God ever spoken to a human?

All the time, through the Holy Spirit who speaks in a very quiet voice.

So someone has recorded this?

The question is what would that actually look like, right?

So nobody has recorded this voice. Got it. Then you all must simply imagine it.

Are you expecting magic again, Taz?

I'm just going by what YOU said.

"the Holy Spirit who speaks in a very quiet voice"

So either god is speaking for real, or you're imagining it. Which is it?

We both know better what you meant, Taz. You dismiss and ridicule what you don't understand.

From my own personal experiences I have had revelations that when they popped into my head I instantly recognized that they were true. Mind you I am not describing religious revelations, but ordinary everyday kind of things about my ordinary everyday issues that I am confronted with. Usually they happen in the morning when I am in that halfway state of being asleep and being awake. There is only one time when we are not conscious of self and that is when we are asleep. So it makes perfect sense to me that that is the time I am most receptive to the spirit which binds us but is not a part of the material world. This is how I believe revelations work.

You keep worshiping yourself and I'll keep worshiping the creator of existence and we'll see who leads the the more harmonious and peaceful life.

So basically, you’re living in a dreamworld.

Like I said before... You keep worshiping yourself and I'll keep worshiping the creator of existence and we'll see who leads the the more harmonious and peaceful life.

You're worshipping a fantasy. If that brings you peace, I'm not against that.

How do you know?

Because you've shown no empirical proof for your invisible magician.

Untrue. The existence of God can be known through the light of human reason by examining what He created. What you mean to say is that you reject all evidence for God. There is no evidence you will accept as proof of God's existence. And then there is Jesus Christ.

But no one knows who, how or why the universe was created. I'd accept real, tangible empirical evidence. And you don't have that. For you, it's "my magical invisible friend exists because the universe exists. And my invisible friend cares how we live our live, well... just because."

The just because is because virtue is logical, taz. As for your failure to investigate the only evidence you will ever have until you enter into a relationship with the Creator, that's on you.

And then there is Jesus Christ.

None of what you said is empirical proof. So you still have nothing but a fantasy.

Actually it is. If you created something I could use it as evidence. Anything tangible can be used as evidence, dum dum.

But you have nothing that points to an invisible magician as the culprit. Cumlicker.

 

[Taz]

What would it take to assure you that God is real and God cares about you?

The same way you would prove you are real. I would want Him to stand right in front me me and say, “hi”. That would convince me.

Why should convincing you be important exactly?

Because people like you say that god kingdom is so fantastic, I want to see it for myself. But so far, nothing but goose eggs.

Then go and find it. No one is stopping you but you.

Nobody has any idea where to send me, or go themselves.

I had no problem.

But you made it up.

How do you know?

Because you're not able to prove your invisible friend no matter how many times you repeat the same thing.

 

[Taz]

What would it take to assure you that God is real and God cares about you?

The same way you would prove you are real. I would want Him to stand right in front me me and say, “hi”. That would convince me.

Why should convincing you be important exactly?

Because people like you say that god kingdom is so fantastic, I want to see it for myself. But so far, nothing but goose eggs.

Then go and find it. No one is stopping you but you.

Just tell us how you found God so that we can use the same method. It turns out this is quite a complicated process for some reason.

Have you ever considered that God hates some people and loves others? (Like the Bible says). If God hates me then He probably doesn’t want me to find Him.

John Calvin is considered the greatest theologian of all times. John Calvin taught that God chooses some and ignores others. His theology actually makes sense and is consistent with the observation of myself and many atheists.

You seem to be an amateur theologian with a theology that makes no sense whatsoever. Are you sure that you and Calvin knew the same god?

Your theology is lacking an explanation for why God reveals Himself to you but refuses to reveal Himself to me. Calvinism explains it plainly and clearly.

Why? You aren't interested in it. You are here to amuse yourself. Besides, I don't believe you are willing or capable to do what is required. But on the off chance I have you pegged all wrong, it's simple. Die to self. Of course, simple does not necessarily mean easy.

So maybe Calvin wasn't as knowledgeable as he thought he was or as you think he was. God is reality and the only way anyone will ever see reality is to die to self. When you can do that you will see how God has worked in your life.

wtf does "die to self" means? Anything?

 

[Turtlesoup]

We atheists and others don't need the threat of punishment to be good.

Neither do the great majority of believers. We don't believe because it's punishment that is at hand (within reach); we believe because it is the kingdom of God that is within reach.

Carrot and stick threats and rewards from an imaginary being-----
The bible is full of the spite nonsense-----
again atheists are good for being good sake (when they are good)--christians need to be bribed and punished to do so.

 

[Taz]

Has anyone ever spoken to God?

Only those who pray.

Has God ever spoken to a human?

All the time, through the Holy Spirit who speaks in a very quiet voice.

So someone has recorded this?

The question is what would that actually look like, right?

So nobody has recorded this voice. Got it. Then you all must simply imagine it.

Are you expecting magic again, Taz?

You said you hear him all the time. So either it's a real voice that you can record or it's not. And we all know which one it is, making you delusional.

 

[Meriweather]

You just listed a bunch of crap earlier!

You mean when I identified allegories and metaphors? That is hilarious. I did not know you were one of those who believed that the modern English translation of the Bible must be taken literally...every single word! How many other camels have you swallowed while straining out gnats?

Seriously, review a few middle school English classes where we teach metaphors, allegories, and symbolism--how to identify them, how to use them. It seems you have forgotten a lot. Another thing to remember is that the original Hebrew is not a subjective language such as what we are used to with our modern English. For example, where our modern English translation of "God was angered" comes from the Hebrew of "flared nostrils". If you can understand this, then you should have no trouble with pictures of talking snakes and donkeys.

Stop swallowing that Protestant Reformation nonsense about people being able to read and understand the Bible all on their own. Jews, then Catholics, have always insisted that the Bible should not be read, but studied. (Hence the ignorant Protestant assertion that Catholics don't read the Bible, which is actually quite funny.)

 

[Meriweather]

Atheism is a much more miserable existence.

All I can say (as a Christian married to an atheist) is that if you have been miserable with both, then you are doing both wrong. What, exactly, about atheism is making you miserable?

 

[Meriweather]

Why should I be seeking God? That actually makes no sense at all.

Then don't seek Him.

 

[Meriweather]

What has prompted me to seek God? That actually makes no sense at all.

Then you were never prompted to seek God, so don't worry about seeking Him.

 

[Taz]

You just listed a bunch of crap earlier!

You mean when I identified allegories and metaphors? That is hilarious. I did not know you were one of those who believed that the modern English translation of the Bible must be taken literally...every single word! How many other camels have you swallowed while straining out gnats?

Seriously, review a few middle school English classes where we teach metaphors, allegories, and symbolism--how to identify them, how to use them. It seems you have forgotten a lot. Another thing to remember is that the original Hebrew is not a subjective language such as what we are used to with our modern English. For example, where our modern English translation of "God was angered" comes from the Hebrew of "flared nostrils". If you can understand this, then you should have no trouble with pictures of talking snakes and donkeys.

Stop swallowing that Protestant Reformation nonsense about people being able to read and understand the Bible all on their own. Jews, then Catholics, have always insisted that the Bible should not be read, but studied. (Hence the ignorant Protestant assertion that Catholics don't read the Bible, which is actually quite funny.)

Otherwise known as moving the goalposts because when the bible was written, it was written as though those were real events. It's only when science disproved a lot of it that the goalposts were moved.

 

[Meriweather]

What is the prize for finding God when you seek Him? That actually makes no sense at all.

There is no prize, why do you think there would be?

Do consequences make sense to you? For example, if it is snowing outside and you choose to go outside wearing a tank top and shorts, the consequence is that you will be cold. If you plant radishes, don't expect a harvest of corn. If you insist on drinking poison, you will be poisoned. Religion simply presents presents a way to live THIS life RIGHT NOW. Watch not only your every action, but your every thought because you will reap what you sow. In other words, whatever goes around, comes around.

There is no need to make simple things complicated. Think in the more realistic terms of reactions and consequences instead of "prizes".

 

[Meriweather]

You keep accusing me of being unable to find God

I am not accusing you of anything. I certainly don't think badly of you. What you may be misinterpreting is that I disagree with your conclusion that simply because you have not found God yet, there is no God to be found. You have concluded because you have not found God, no one else has either. You feel because you have been misled, everyone else has been misled as well. You keep projecting what has happened to you as happening to everyone. Experiences vary. Try keeping that in mind for awhile.

 

[Meriweather]

Dude if someone wants to find God then I am sure they can create Him.

Yeah, just like those who unsuccessfully search for gold or treasure can simply create gold or treasure if they don't find it. I suggest it is you who have created a God that you cannot find, a God of your own expectations.

 

[Taz]

Dude if someone wants to find God then I am sure they can create Him.

Yeah, just like those who unsuccessfully search for gold or treasure can simply create gold or treasure if they don't find it. I suggest it is you who have created a God that you cannot find, a God of your own expectations.

Isn't the bible a handbook on how to find god?

 

[Meriweather]

That is about as dumb as searching for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Here is an idea! Why don't you find a website where people are searching for a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? Why would you do that? Well, why are you in a religion forum? As I have said before I married an atheist. I am from an atheist family. Not one is interested in posting in a religion forum, just as I have no interest in posting on a unicorn or a flat earth society forum.

 

[Meriweather]

Carrot and stick threats and rewards from an imaginary being-----
The bible is full of the spite nonsense-----
again atheists are good for being good sake (when they are good)--christians need to be bribed and punished to do so.

Nonsense. Atheists and Christians alike are good because being good works. A true atheist would say this is evolution at work, that being good works to the benefit of both the individual and the society. A true atheist would not claim they are "being good for being good sake". And, it takes true ignorance to accuse another group they are so inhuman they must be bribed to be good. The irony is that is not a "good" way to view others. It is patronizing and condescending...not good at all.

 

[Meriweather]

As far as I can tell you reject the parts of the Bible that are stupid.

There is a difference between rejecting something and doing the research to understand the point the original author was making to his original audience. It is not stupid to use metaphor, colorful, figurative speech and symbolism to bring forth a point. I am willing to bet that it never occurred to the original authors that mankind would one day become too stupid to separate metaphor and allegory from reality.