TULIP (God calls some to atheism)

[presonorek]

John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

That is ultimately the point of the faith (rewards in an afterlife) and the promise of religion in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it very easy to believe because the dynamic of the belief system promises some future association with the god or gods and it is a soothing balm for your concerns about mortality.

When Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God, he wasn't speaking of the afterlife, but a way of living this life. Remember the verse where he said sinners and prostitutes are entering the Kingdom of God ahead of religious leaders? Jesus often said, "The Kingdom of God is at hand", meaning within the reach of everyone, right now.

The Kingdom of God is eternal (as opposed to an eternity after death). It is always present, always within reach.

That may be your subjective interpretation but the verse from the Bible is in contradiction to your interpretation. What is your basis for such absolute authority on the matter?

Her basis for authority is the Bible. Some Christians reject the Bible as authority. She is learning that lesson.

It's an odd dynamic. It doesn't make sense to:

A. Use the bible as the source from where you heard about Jesus and God (or god(s) of your choosing) and salvation in the first place

only to

B. Dismiss what the bible says about Jesus and God in the first place in favor of something you'd like it to be instead of what it says it is.

The evangelical movement in the late 1800s flooded Christian thought with hedonism.

Think about it:

“I have a personal relationship with Jesus.”

“If I say the right prayer God is required to save me.”

“Jesus loves everybody just the way they are.”

“If my puppy gets sick I will pray to Jesus. He will make my puppy well again.”

Reading complex literature that forces you to examine yourself is not as fun as hanging out with Jesus drinking beers and giving Him high fives.

Modern Christianity is so heavily influenced with hedonism that it isn’t recognizable as a religion anymore. Evangelicals even brag. “It’s not a religion. It’s a relationship.” Being all around it is disappointing but It is kind of fascinating if you can step back and watch it at a distance.

 

[Meriweather]

That's fine but how does anyone research supernatural events? If Christians were willing to be objective, they would admit they have no corroboration that any of the gospels were authored by Luke, Matthew, Mark or John. They are simply accepting they were.

I don't know how anyone can research supernatural events. I have never spent much time on miracles. Whether Jesus multiplied loaves and fishes or changed water to wine has nothing to do with me or with my life.

However, what he taught resounded with me, which is why I have this emphasis on etymology, what the words meant at the time it was being used--not what it means thousands of years later.

 

[Meriweather]

Dismiss what the bible says about Jesus and God in the first place in favor of something you'd like it to be instead of what it says it is.

Are you saying that if someone knows what the Bible says in 20th Century English, they should not go back and read/study what it says in the original language?

 

[Hollie]

Dismiss what the bible says about Jesus and God in the first place in favor of something you'd like it to be instead of what it says it is.

Are you saying that if someone knows what the Bible says in 20th Century English, they should not go back and read/study what it says in the original language?

Actually, no. I would not have written “if someone knows what the Bible says in 20th Century English, they should not go back and read/study what it says in the original language?”, because that’s not what I was trying to convey.

I would have written something along the lines of, all of your testimony presupposes that your god is the true god. All religions make this claim. I see nothing that advances your claim above the others. The Bible is a book, written by mostly unknown authors who lived in a superstitious time when the ebb and flow of life was thought to be ruled by various gods who managed the forces of nature. I’m not clear how studying the gods who were though to manage thunder and lightning (original language or not), is going to give any morinsight into the god who apparently replaced those earlier gods.


Note this verse from the New Testament (KJV):

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

In other words, your acts don't matter. You're a considerate, caring person? Too bad -- you burn, heathen.

I have to study this a bit more but my first impression is that, ummm, you know, it’s not good.

 

[Meriweather]

I would have written something along the lines of, all of your testimony presupposes that your god is the true god.

Then you do not understand at all.

 

[Meriweather]

I see nothing that advances your claim above the others.

I have made no claim.

 

[Meriweather]

In other words, your acts don't matter. You're a considerate, caring person? Too bad -- you burn, heathen.

Not what Titus said.

 

[Hollie]

I would have written something along the lines of, all of your testimony presupposes that your god is the true god.

Then you do not understand at all.

I think you are uncomfortable with uncomfortable truths.

 

[Hollie]

In other words, your acts don't matter. You're a considerate, caring person? Too bad -- you burn, heathen.

Not what Titus said.

You’re uncomfortable with my interpretation?

 

[Hollie]

I see nothing that advances your claim above the others.

I have made no claim.

Your claims suggest otherwise.

 

[Meriweather]

I think you are uncomfortable with uncomfortable truths.

Nah. I am simply not uncomfortable with things that are not so.

 

[Meriweather]

You’re uncomfortable with my interpretation?

Why would anyone be?

 

[Meriweather]

Your claims suggest otherwise.

I have made no claims. If you think I have, you will have to show that "claim" to me. I am merely someone sharing my perspective with a person who is sharing her perspective. I think of it more as the figurative description of two blind people sharing perspectives of opposite ends of an elephant, trying to figure out what this thing is and what it looks like.

 

[LittleNipper]

Has anyone ever spoken to God?

Adam, Cain, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Ezekiel, Samuel, Daniel ------ should I continue?

 

[Hollie]

Your claims suggest otherwise.

I have made no claims. If you think I have, you will have to show that "claim" to me. I am merely someone sharing my perspective with a person who is sharing her perspective. I think of it more as the figurative description of two blind people sharing perspectives of opposite ends of an elephant, trying to figure out what this thing is and what it looks like.

Probably not the best of analogies. A tangible, physical object allows the real possibility that blind people can make valid assessments about the nature of the elephant. Not so with supernatural gods.

 

[Hollie]

I see nothing that advances your claim above the others.

I have made no claim.

Nothing about heaven and “all are welcome”?

Did someone hack your login?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Your claims suggest otherwise.

I have made no claims.

Again, really? Pleading self-unawareness? That itself is a claim. Do you self-identify as belonging to the obtuse or the abstruse?

 

[Meriweather]

Probably not the best of analogies. A tangible, physical object allows the real possibility that blind people can make valid assessments about the nature of the elephant. Not so with supernatural gods.

The analogy addresses two people conversing about an extensive topic from differing perspectives. There may well be better analogies, but this is the one I chose.

 

[Meriweather]

Nothing about heaven and “all are welcome”?

This has already been addressed. I mentioned a parable Jesus told, and so from my perspective scripture speaks to all, and all are welcome, but agreeing to is a personal decision.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you self-identify

Off topic. Different perspectives of the New Testament are being presented. All are welcome to join. But no pressure.