TULIP (God calls some to atheism)

[Grumblenuts]

Critical thinking is the analysis of facts to form a judgment.[1] The subject is complex, and several different definitions exist, which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis, or evaluation of factual evidence. Critical thinking is self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking.[2] It presupposes assent to rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem-solving abilities as well as a commitment to overcome native egocentrism[3][4] and sociocentrism.

Whereas, the religious readily surrender to their egocentrism and sociocentrism.

 

[Meriweather]

Dream on

While I do appreciate dreams, reality is even greater. Keep in mind, people's experiences with religion can vary greatly.

 

[Meriweather]

I think that reality including Arks sailing the seas, men living for 900 years, animal sacrifice, etc., warp the concept of reality. The gods might have taken the time to edit the books written about them. They chose not to. Why did they not require the reader to understand allegory vs. literal rendering of the tales? Why did they not acknowledge that "hey, we're sort of right but those Egyptian gods, yeah, they were really right".

People have been studying the Bible for ages. There is a lot of information available, and many viable theories that are worth considering. Some really good scholars start with the premise that what is not true now (i.e. talking donkeys and snakes) are not true now. If mankind cannot live for 900 years now, then it was not possible then. All would agree this reasoning is based on knowledge and reasoning gathered through the years. Two theories that make the most sense: Zeros added to emphasize the importance of that person and what he accomplished. The theory I favor is this was a family (or tribal) name and the family/tribe lasted 900 years. The important thing is not to claim any theory as fact, to be comfortable with the knowledge that some knowledge or the way things were done thousands of years ago, has dissipated over the years.

The Bible is interesting. Your life is even more interesting. Your insights are just as worthy of consideration. Why shouldn't the original audience been expected to fully understand metaphor, symbolism, and allegory? In our own day don't we fully expect our audience to understand the expression (and many like it), "It's raining cats and dogs...and I stepped into a poodle."

 

[Meriweather]

Whereas, the religious readily surrender to their egocentrism and sociocentrism.

Because that is how you view religion, it is not the view of all...especially us critical thinkers.

 

[Taz]

What would it take to assure you that God is real and God cares about you?

The same way you would prove you are real. I would want Him to stand right in front me me and say, “hi”. That would convince me.

Why should convincing you be important exactly?

Because people like you say that god kingdom is so fantastic, I want to see it for myself. But so far, nothing but goose eggs.

Then go and find it. No one is stopping you but you.

Just tell us how you found God so that we can use the same method. It turns out this is quite a complicated process for some reason.

Have you ever considered that God hates some people and loves others? (Like the Bible says). If God hates me then He probably doesn’t want me to find Him.

John Calvin is considered the greatest theologian of all times. John Calvin taught that God chooses some and ignores others. His theology actually makes sense and is consistent with the observation of myself and many atheists.

You seem to be an amateur theologian with a theology that makes no sense whatsoever. Are you sure that you and Calvin knew the same god?

Your theology is lacking an explanation for why God reveals Himself to you but refuses to reveal Himself to me. Calvinism explains it plainly and clearly.

Why? You aren't interested in it. You are here to amuse yourself. Besides, I don't believe you are willing or capable to do what is required. But on the off chance I have you pegged all wrong, it's simple. Die to self. Of course, simple does not necessarily mean easy.

So maybe Calvin wasn't as knowledgeable as he thought he was or as you think he was. God is reality and the only way anyone will ever see reality is to die to self. When you can do that you will see how God has worked in your life.

wtf does "die to self" means? Anything?

It means you should stop loving yourself so much that you can't see reality.

That makes no sense. It's just some random meaningless homily.

 

[Taz]

Has anyone ever spoken to God?

Only those who pray.

Has God ever spoken to a human?

All the time, through the Holy Spirit who speaks in a very quiet voice.

So someone has recorded this?

The question is what would that actually look like, right?

So nobody has recorded this voice. Got it. Then you all must simply imagine it.

Are you expecting magic again, Taz?

I'm just going by what YOU said.

"the Holy Spirit who speaks in a very quiet voice"

So either god is speaking for real, or you're imagining it. Which is it?

We both know better what you meant, Taz. You dismiss and ridicule what you don't understand.

From my own personal experiences I have had revelations that when they popped into my head I instantly recognized that they were true. Mind you I am not describing religious revelations, but ordinary everyday kind of things about my ordinary everyday issues that I am confronted with. Usually they happen in the morning when I am in that halfway state of being asleep and being awake. There is only one time when we are not conscious of self and that is when we are asleep. So it makes perfect sense to me that that is the time I am most receptive to the spirit which binds us but is not a part of the material world. This is how I believe revelations work.

You keep worshiping yourself and I'll keep worshiping the creator of existence and we'll see who leads the the more harmonious and peaceful life.

So basically, you’re living in a dreamworld.

Like I said before... You keep worshiping yourself and I'll keep worshiping the creator of existence and we'll see who leads the the more harmonious and peaceful life.

You're worshipping a fantasy. If that brings you peace, I'm not against that.

How do you know?

Because you've shown no empirical proof for your invisible magician.

Untrue. The existence of God can be known through the light of human reason by examining what He created. What you mean to say is that you reject all evidence for God. There is no evidence you will accept as proof of God's existence. And then there is Jesus Christ.

But no one knows who, how or why the universe was created. I'd accept real, tangible empirical evidence. And you don't have that. For you, it's "my magical invisible friend exists because the universe exists. And my invisible friend cares how we live our live, well... just because."

The just because is because virtue is logical, taz. As for your failure to investigate the only evidence you will ever have until you enter into a relationship with the Creator, that's on you.

And then there is Jesus Christ.

None of what you said is empirical proof. So you still have nothing but a fantasy.

Actually it is. If you created something I could use it as evidence. Anything tangible can be used as evidence, dum dum.

But you have nothing that points to an invisible magician as the culprit. Cumlicker.

I wouldn't believe in an invisible magician either, dummy. But existence is the evidence you are looking for.

How does existence tie into your invisible friend? Fudge packer.

God created it so you could share in His existence.

No, but show the connection, the proof.

 

[Taz]

Existence says otherwise.

And so does Jesus

Jesus says?

Jesus IS.

Religious gobbledygook. Completely meaningless.

 

[ding]

Critical thinking is the analysis of facts to form a judgment.[1] The subject is complex, and several different definitions exist, which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis, or evaluation of factual evidence. Critical thinking is self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking.[2] It presupposes assent to rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem-solving abilities as well as a commitment to overcome native egocentrism[3][4] and sociocentrism.

Whereas, the religious readily surrender to their egocentrism and sociocentrism.

That's funny because I don't read allegorical texts literally while "critical thinkers" like you and Hollie do.

You and Hollie sure are a masters of critical thinking.

 

[ding]

Critical thinking is the analysis of facts to form a judgment.[1] The subject is complex, and several different definitions exist, which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis, or evaluation of factual evidence. Critical thinking is self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking.[2] It presupposes assent to rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem-solving abilities as well as a commitment to overcome native egocentrism[3][4] and sociocentrism.

Whereas, the religious readily surrender to their egocentrism and sociocentrism.

William James, an actual critical thinker, had a different take on the religious....

When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill.​

 

[ding]

Existence says otherwise.

And so does Jesus

Jesus says?

Jesus IS.

Religious gobbledygook. Completely meaningless.

 

[ding]

Has anyone ever spoken to God?

Only those who pray.

Has God ever spoken to a human?

All the time, through the Holy Spirit who speaks in a very quiet voice.

So someone has recorded this?

The question is what would that actually look like, right?

So nobody has recorded this voice. Got it. Then you all must simply imagine it.

Are you expecting magic again, Taz?

I'm just going by what YOU said.

"the Holy Spirit who speaks in a very quiet voice"

So either god is speaking for real, or you're imagining it. Which is it?

We both know better what you meant, Taz. You dismiss and ridicule what you don't understand.

From my own personal experiences I have had revelations that when they popped into my head I instantly recognized that they were true. Mind you I am not describing religious revelations, but ordinary everyday kind of things about my ordinary everyday issues that I am confronted with. Usually they happen in the morning when I am in that halfway state of being asleep and being awake. There is only one time when we are not conscious of self and that is when we are asleep. So it makes perfect sense to me that that is the time I am most receptive to the spirit which binds us but is not a part of the material world. This is how I believe revelations work.

You keep worshiping yourself and I'll keep worshiping the creator of existence and we'll see who leads the the more harmonious and peaceful life.

So basically, you’re living in a dreamworld.

Like I said before... You keep worshiping yourself and I'll keep worshiping the creator of existence and we'll see who leads the the more harmonious and peaceful life.

You're worshipping a fantasy. If that brings you peace, I'm not against that.

How do you know?

Because you've shown no empirical proof for your invisible magician.

Untrue. The existence of God can be known through the light of human reason by examining what He created. What you mean to say is that you reject all evidence for God. There is no evidence you will accept as proof of God's existence. And then there is Jesus Christ.

But no one knows who, how or why the universe was created. I'd accept real, tangible empirical evidence. And you don't have that. For you, it's "my magical invisible friend exists because the universe exists. And my invisible friend cares how we live our live, well... just because."

The just because is because virtue is logical, taz. As for your failure to investigate the only evidence you will ever have until you enter into a relationship with the Creator, that's on you.

And then there is Jesus Christ.

None of what you said is empirical proof. So you still have nothing but a fantasy.

Actually it is. If you created something I could use it as evidence. Anything tangible can be used as evidence, dum dum.

But you have nothing that points to an invisible magician as the culprit. Cumlicker.

I wouldn't believe in an invisible magician either, dummy. But existence is the evidence you are looking for.

How does existence tie into your invisible friend? Fudge packer.

God created it so you could share in His existence.

No, but show the connection, the proof.

The connection is that what was created is evidence, dummy. Evidence is used to prove. But it seems your strategy is to systematically rule out the use of any and all evidence that can be used to prove God's existence solely because the existence of that evidence can be used to prove God's existence. Brilliant.

There's YOUR connection, dummy.

 

[ding]

What would it take to assure you that God is real and God cares about you?

The same way you would prove you are real. I would want Him to stand right in front me me and say, “hi”. That would convince me.

Why should convincing you be important exactly?

Because people like you say that god kingdom is so fantastic, I want to see it for myself. But so far, nothing but goose eggs.

Then go and find it. No one is stopping you but you.

Just tell us how you found God so that we can use the same method. It turns out this is quite a complicated process for some reason.

Have you ever considered that God hates some people and loves others? (Like the Bible says). If God hates me then He probably doesn’t want me to find Him.

John Calvin is considered the greatest theologian of all times. John Calvin taught that God chooses some and ignores others. His theology actually makes sense and is consistent with the observation of myself and many atheists.

You seem to be an amateur theologian with a theology that makes no sense whatsoever. Are you sure that you and Calvin knew the same god?

Your theology is lacking an explanation for why God reveals Himself to you but refuses to reveal Himself to me. Calvinism explains it plainly and clearly.

Why? You aren't interested in it. You are here to amuse yourself. Besides, I don't believe you are willing or capable to do what is required. But on the off chance I have you pegged all wrong, it's simple. Die to self. Of course, simple does not necessarily mean easy.

So maybe Calvin wasn't as knowledgeable as he thought he was or as you think he was. God is reality and the only way anyone will ever see reality is to die to self. When you can do that you will see how God has worked in your life.

wtf does "die to self" means? Anything?

It means you should stop loving yourself so much that you can't see reality.

That makes no sense. It's just some random meaningless homily.

You'll never know because you can't stop loving yourself long enough to find out.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

That's a common misconception.

Nah, it's spot on. It's in writing. You are the one who has to do all the equivocation and misrepresentation to turn it into something else. Which i can understand, given the horrible morality of the god character presented in the bible.

 

[ding]

That's a common misconception.

Nah, it's spot on. It's in writing. You are the one who has to do all the equivocation and misrepresentation to turn it into something else. Which i can understand, given the horrible morality of the god character presented in the bible.

So.... you are saying something you don't believe could have come from God should be used against God.

That's some serious use of critical thinking skills.

Wouldn't the people who actually practiced their faith be able to say what they think it means? I know that sounds crazy, but usually the adherents of something are the ones to describe and define what that something is. Not the opponents of something. Crazy, huh?

 

[BreezeWood]

I say go and enjoy your atheism. Be all the atheist you can be. Because I am really enjoying your rationalizations of how atheism has made you happier.

You are extremely wrong. I was way way way much happier when I was a believing Christian. Atheism is a much more miserable existence. Where did you get the idea that atheists are happier than Christians?

Personally I was just happier as a Christian. I also observe Christians to be much happier than atheists.

.

Personally I was just happier as a Christian. I also observe Christians to be much happier than atheists.

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are addicts truly happier or do you deny that is there euphoria ... and used improperly as how their religion construes their adherents.

as though your only alternative is atheism - from christianity, christian.

I am having a hard time deciphering what you are saying. I think you are referencing euphoria that is experienced through religion and denying that euphoria as happiness. I would disagree. Religion offers a high that is unparalleled with a high you get from drugs. In the Bible it is referred to as “a peace that passes all understanding”.

.

I am having a hard time deciphering what you are saying. I think you are referencing euphoria that is experienced through religion and denying that euphoria as happiness. I would disagree. Religion offers a high that is unparalleled with a high you get from drugs. In the Bible it is referred to as “a peace that passes all understanding”.

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the parallel is they are the same, scriptural religion and drugs the same (artificial) euphoria and why you would not be a happy atheist if you were truly happy as a christian - and why that is your only alternative, atheism than a true religion.

and it must be you who is unhappy irregardless your vocation.

 

[ding]

so says the avowed communist.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

.... you are saying something you don't believe could have come from God should be used against God.

False. I am saying the god character in the bible has worse morality than the average toddler. I really cant dumb this down any further for you.

 

[ding]

.... you are saying something you don't believe could have come from God should be used against God.

False. I am saying the god character in the bible has worse morality than the average toddler. I really cant dumb this down any further for you.

Oh... so you want to define God by the Bible that you don't believe and read literally to look for ways to discredit it.

That makes so much sense. You truly are a critical thinker.

 

[Grumblenuts]

ding's back on ignore, so to whatever he's heehawing at me.. I say neighayhayhay!

 

[BreezeWood]

The Christians that bother me are the sincere ones. They are just setting themselves up to be conned by all sorts of people.

Those who bother me most are the ones who sincerely believe they know what someone believes, and how and why they came to that belief. Your fear for me (and other people of faith) is unfounded. Be not afraid...

I am not afraid of you. You reject the parts of the Bible that you do not like.

You misspelled... "we reject your silly understanding of the Bible." Maybe if you didn't attend Westboro Baptist Church you wouldn't have accepted such silly interpretations without thinking for yourself.

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you wouldn't have accepted such silly interpretations without thinking for yourself.

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such as believing the - creator of the universe - lived in mary's womb for 9 months ... you are who is afraid without your makebelieve and self serving messiah.

Yep. Such as the Creator of existence choosing to be born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer death to reconcile justice with mercy. Maybe if you and vasuderatorrent had shared in Christ's experience in suffering death - as He intended - you would have been humbled enough to die to self too and see reality.

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- such as believing the - creator of the universe - lived in mary's womb for 9 months ...

Yep. Such as the Creator of existence choosing to be born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer death to reconcile justice with mercy. Maybe if you and vasuderatorrent had shared in Christ's experience in suffering death - as He intended - you would have been humbled enough to die to self too and see reality.

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was it an allegory ...

how is being crucified a reconcile of justice - then, the crucifiers writing a book 3 centuries latter what a good guy they were. bing.

too bad they were not left to write the memoir themselves.

Because we were spared (mercy). Because He wasn't spared (justice).

And no, the Creator of existence choosing to be born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer death to reconcile justice with mercy was not allegorical.

.

such as believing the - creator of the universe - lived in mary's womb for 9 months ... you are who is afraid without your makebelieve and self serving messiah.

- too bad they were not left to write the memoir themselves.

Because we were spared (mercy). Because He wasn't spared (justice).

And no, the Creator of existence choosing to be born into this world to testify to the truth and suffer death to reconcile justice with mercy was not allegorical.

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what are you talking about, "Because He (they weren't) wasn't spared (justice)" - by who. ... but you were - really.

* sorry bing, the events of noah was the justice not spared - for you or anyone else. by them.

if not allegorical, there must be a a vacuum for you where normal people have a brain / spiritual relevancy.