Treason or Whistle Blower?

[Wake]

It's just odd to me to see some people angry with the man who tells us the truth of our government, who would rather be happy and content being lied to on an endless basis. No, you couldn't care less if America was becoming something out of the Matrix, or that our government hides murders at the hands of American soldiers.

If you find shelter in this web of deceit, you're bound to get tangled in it.

If you lie down with dogs, you get fleas. The great crusade for Snowden against NSA and/or Obama for massive data collection on US citizens will not be good. It'll condone further damaging links like the ones about us spying on Turkey while doing absolutely nothing to shut down PRISM.

Or, we could treat massive data collection by the US government on its own citizens as something bad for America, while also thanking the man who was brave enough to tell the American people the truth.

While there are likely some things that should be classified, there are other things that ought to come to light. The fear-inducing expansions of our government and the murders of foreigners abroad should be included.

 

[asterism]

It's just odd to me to see some people angry with the man who tells us the truth of our government, who would rather be happy and content being lied to on an endless basis. No, you couldn't care less if America was becoming something out of the Matrix, or that our government hides murders at the hands of American soldiers.

If you find shelter in this web of deceit, you're bound to get tangled in it.

If you lie down with dogs, you get fleas. The great crusade for Snowden against NSA and/or Obama for massive data collection on US citizens will not be good. It'll condone further damaging links like the ones about us spying on Turkey while doing absolutely nothing to shut down PRISM.

Or, we could treat massive data collection by the US government on its own citizens as something bad for America, while also thanking the man who was brave enough to tell the American people the truth.

While there are likely some things that should be classified, there are other things that ought to come to light. The fear-inducing expansions of our government and the murders of foreigners abroad should be included.

There isn't anything brave about spilling secrets under the protection of China. Fleeing is cowardly, actually.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If you lie down with dogs, you get fleas. The great crusade for Snowden against NSA and/or Obama for massive data collection on US citizens will not be good. It'll condone further damaging links like the ones about us spying on Turkey while doing absolutely nothing to shut down PRISM.

Or, we could treat massive data collection by the US government on its own citizens as something bad for America, while also thanking the man who was brave enough to tell the American people the truth.

While there are likely some things that should be classified, there are other things that ought to come to light. The fear-inducing expansions of our government and the murders of foreigners abroad should be included.

There isn't anything brave about spilling secrets under the protection of China. Fleeing is cowardly, actually.

The adjective you're looking for is "smart." Why unnecessarily put yourself at risk?

 

[freedombecki]

He leaked classified info. The non disclosure agreement he signed is clear on the punishment for his crime.

The admin will have nothing to do with it.

He leaked classified info. The non disclosure agreement he signed is clear on the punishment for his crime.

I'm gonna faint. I agree that he committed a crime and broke his word affirmed by his signature.

Not a very happy day for America.

Right. No moral argument there at all. And I mean this with respect, in spite of not liking it when people seem to use the "law" as the by-all-end-all approach to everything.

I suppose genocides could happen as well and, even though you know it and that it's wrong, so long as you sign your name on the dotted line, it's wrong of you to dare bring these injustices to light. Where is the morality and freedom in that, becki?

Why do you blame the leaker, instead of the massive damage against our Constitution and the constant lies to us by our own government. Do you trust our government so much that they can do no wrong to the point that all leakers can't be trusted?

Sometimes, becki, leaks are justified.

Well, we could argue the Kohlberg theory of moral development over this deed till we were blue in the face, but it's like this: the people put the President in the White House. The People put their own Congressional Representatives in the House, and although states used to put their own Senators in the Senate, now the People do that as well since the other way was corrupted.

The American way is slow--these we choose go to work for the people they represent, and they come up with appointees as the law requires to make some day-to-day decisions, while the elected sculpt laws to make things run better for the people. Unfortunately, things take a long time in our system, but we didn't care for the system of Kingpins, we decided to put our representatives in charge to come up with a formula to make things right. Sometimes that formula seems more like molasses than a well-oiled machine, but by and large, the people are served by people who have their best interests at heart, and not foreign governments.

This gentleman simply lost patience with the slow turnstile that our representative democracy is and decided to take elected matters of state into his own hands--though nobody voted for him, he saved himself the trouble and expense of getting himself elected to deal with matters of state, and he did it in a unilateral way that puts himself in a fugitive position for which we would boil in oil an elected politician who did likewise.

The last guy who pulled a stunt like that got hundreds of people in Afghanistan murdered who were collaborators with our military in a time of war, and their names and addresses that wikileaked to them were found in Osama bin Laden's household by our Seals who brought them home with them when they tried to bring him to justice, but he pulled a fast one and went for his gun, for which he was killed in defense of the team there to take him back to America for a little accounting about 9/11. *sigh*

Who's the most guilty of turning confidential matters over to foreign governments? The guy who's hiding and feeding info to the Daily Caller in Britain or the guy doing stockade duty between his trial appearances for getting our collaborators murdered with confidential info?

I cannot say. It's a matter for the courts. I'm a seamstress. If ya left it to me, I'd poke both of 'em in the butt with an applique pin. That could be considered cruel and unusual punishment, and even I know that's unacceptable in our court system.

And you may never have become acquainted with Kohlberg's theory of moral development, so why should I go there with you? It's not something you can just pick up overnight, much less debate it with a lady whose quilt tacking gun is loaded.

 

[nitroz]

Whoever voted "yes" should be revealed for all of us to see.

 

[flacaltenn]

Don't edit my quotes to remove context.

Why did he leak documents about us spying on Russia and Turkey? Why did he leak information about our counter cyberattacks against China?

That's wrong?

No one in this thread is arguing that spying on American enemies is wrong (if indeed that is irrefutably true).

However, the issue is of Snowden revealing that our government is also spying on us, Americans. Are we the enemy, asterism?

Would you prefer that people like Snowden who reveal our government's increasingly larger designs ought not to exist? I don't know much of him supposedly revealing documents to China and Russia about our obvious counter-spying and counter-hacking, but I do know that it was right of him to reveal America's path to tyranny and oppression. Now that we know, we can have more debate and discussion to, perhaps, help get us off this dangerous path.

Don't edit my quotes to remove context.

What you said was dishonest. You pretended that he didn't expose a program that he thought was wrong.

The editing rule here is unique from other forums I've been to, and its existence is strange. Next time I will bold the section that deserves criticism, instead.

I'll clarify:

Undermining security, leaking to foreign press, and hiding out in a communist country says all I need to know about his character. It's not like he simply exposed a program he thought was wrong and left it at that. He fled to China and disseminated many damaging documents. I'm sorry if you think it's a bad thing to spy on Russia and Turkey and I'm sorry if you think meeting cyberattacks with counter-cyberattacks is bad.

This guy is no hero, he's a grandstanding traitor with one possible scintilla of redeeming value. As I have stated previously, there were better options to deal with PRISM than to flee to a communist country and leak to the foreign press.

In the 80s and 90s when NSA and Intel was focused on the godless Commies, there was continuous lying and misreprentation of our programs to the public. In that case with Russia targeting us for nuclear annihilation, there was no urgency to point out the details that the govt wanted protected.

But today with drones killing Americans on foreign soil with no oversight, and all the revelations about NSA being redirected at their new target (YOU), it's a different moral dilemma. In THIS CASE, the lying and misrepresentation is obnoxious and cynical. And Congress and the past Admins have counted on our laziness and complacency and an inept press to get away with it.

Personally, if I were on the inside now, govt lying about it would STILL not move me to Civil Disobedience IF --- the programs were anywhere NEAR the bounds of the enabling legislation. But they are not..

Lemme ask you about the oversight for this farce..

1) What is the ratio warrants APPROVED to warrants REFUSED by FISA in the past 4 years? (hint approved/total is > 99.9%)

2) Can you assure me that the FISA panel is NOT lifetime spooks with Military decorations doing the "judge" thing between spying gigs?

3) What is the purpose of keeping the ENTIRE warrant secret and preventing companies from seeking relief in the common courts?

4) Do you really condone tapping content of voice and data with the sorry ass excuse that some FISA judge rubberstamps a warrant within 3 days of the tap?

5) Do you have ANY SENSE of self-preservation??

6) Do you know that the weapon below will not be used against the citizens of this country?

 

[Indofred]

I think we need to get back to basics.

Snowden released files that prove the NSA are engaged in spying on Americans at home and abroad; without reasonable cause.
He's also proven, members of the security forces have lied under oath.

As a slight aside, web users seems to be adding software, designed by American internet security companies, that used government funded programs to develop ways to counter intrusions by authoritarian governments.
In effect; that suggests the US government has become such an entity.

Since when was exposing crime, a crime in itself?

 

[The2ndAmendment]

The poll results on this subject make me proud of Americans, ye have not lost your dignity.

 

[clevergirl]

Being a traitor and committing treason are not necessarily the same thing...legally speaking.

He had the option of being a "whistle blower", but chose instead to handle it in a very traitorous manner- I would like to know why he did so.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Being a traitor and committing treason are not necessarily the same thing...legally speaking.

He had the option of being a "whistle blower", but chose instead to handle it in a very traitorous manner- I would like to know why he did so.

Wow, maybe because no conventional means of blowing the whistle would have succeeded on a project this ******* large. There's no way he could have used "the system" to expose the ULTIMATE SYSTEM.

 

[clevergirl]

Being a traitor and committing treason are not necessarily the same thing...legally speaking.

He had the option of being a "whistle blower", but chose instead to handle it in a very traitorous manner- I would like to know why he did so.

Wow, maybe because no conventional means of blowing the whistle would have succeeded on a project this ******* large. There's no way he could have used "the system" to expose the ULTIMATE SYSTEM.

Maybe, but YOU don't know that. My point is the poll does not allow for additional options that are relevant to the discussion.

He has acted traitorous...whether he has committed treason is a legal argument to be made.

 

[clevergirl]

He could have used this

Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act of 2012 (2012; 112th Congress S. 743) - GovTrack.us

Section 2302(b) of title 5, United States Code, is amended by amending the matter following paragraph (12) to read as follows:

‘This subsection shall not be construed to authorize the withholding of information from Congress or the taking of any personnel action against an employee who discloses information to Congress. For purposes of paragraph (8), (i) any presumption relating to the performance of a duty by an employee whose conduct is the subject of a disclosure as defined under subsection (a)(2)(D) may be rebutted by substantial evidence, and (ii) a determination as to whether an employee or applicant reasonably believes that such employee or applicant has disclosed information that evidences any violation of law, rule, regulation, gross mismanagement, a gross waste of funds, an abuse of authority, or a substantial and specific danger to public health or safety shall be made by determining whether a disinterested observer with knowledge of the essential facts known to and readily ascertainable by the employee or applicant could reasonably conclude that the actions of the Government evidence such violations, mismanagement, waste, abuse, or danger.’.

 

[Politico]

I think we need to get back to basics.

Snowden released files that prove the NSA are engaged in spying on Americans at home and abroad; without reasonable cause. He's also proven, members of the security forces have lied under oath.

No he released nothing other than claims and a bad powerpoint presentation.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Being a traitor and committing treason are not necessarily the same thing...legally speaking.

He had the option of being a "whistle blower", but chose instead to handle it in a very traitorous manner- I would like to know why he did so.

Wow, maybe because no conventional means of blowing the whistle would have succeeded on a project this ******* large. There's no way he could have used "the system" to expose the ULTIMATE SYSTEM.

Maybe, but YOU don't know that. My point is the poll does not allow for additional options that are relevant to the discussion.

He has acted traitorous...whether he has committed treason is a legal argument to be made.

That's a point I hadn't considered. I was simply seeking opinions 'cause in my mind I assumed Snowden's behavior would split both conservatives and liberals and a real interesting debate would follow. In that I was wrong; it became mostly "ain't Obama awful" once again. Racism once again trumps rationality.

 

[clevergirl]

Wow, maybe because no conventional means of blowing the whistle would have succeeded on a project this ******* large. There's no way he could have used "the system" to expose the ULTIMATE SYSTEM.

Maybe, but YOU don't know that. My point is the poll does not allow for additional options that are relevant to the discussion.

He has acted traitorous...whether he has committed treason is a legal argument to be made.

That's a point I hadn't considered. I was simply seeking opinions 'cause in my mind I assumed Snowden's behavior would split both conservatives and liberals and a real interesting debate would follow. In that I was wrong; it became mostly "ain't Obama awful" once again. Racism once again trumps rationality.

I am against the presidents policies...that does not make me racist. It is sophomoric to make that claim about people who disagree with his policies or criticize his actions.

Obama IS the sitting president residing over these scandals and alleged abuses of power.

My point was that the poll over-simplifies Snowden's actions- not criticism of the poll, but a critique of it.

 

[asterism]

Or, we could treat massive data collection by the US government on its own citizens as something bad for America, while also thanking the man who was brave enough to tell the American people the truth.

While there are likely some things that should be classified, there are other things that ought to come to light. The fear-inducing expansions of our government and the murders of foreigners abroad should be included.

There isn't anything brave about spilling secrets under the protection of China. Fleeing is cowardly, actually.

The adjective you're looking for is "smart." Why unnecessarily put yourself at risk?

He's only safe in China if he's giving them something. That's the part people seem to be missing.

 

[asterism]

No one in this thread is arguing that spying on American enemies is wrong (if indeed that is irrefutably true).

However, the issue is of Snowden revealing that our government is also spying on us, Americans. Are we the enemy, asterism?

Would you prefer that people like Snowden who reveal our government's increasingly larger designs ought not to exist? I don't know much of him supposedly revealing documents to China and Russia about our obvious counter-spying and counter-hacking, but I do know that it was right of him to reveal America's path to tyranny and oppression. Now that we know, we can have more debate and discussion to, perhaps, help get us off this dangerous path.



What you said was dishonest. You pretended that he didn't expose a program that he thought was wrong.

The editing rule here is unique from other forums I've been to, and its existence is strange. Next time I will bold the section that deserves criticism, instead.

I'll clarify:

Undermining security, leaking to foreign press, and hiding out in a communist country says all I need to know about his character. It's not like he simply exposed a program he thought was wrong and left it at that. He fled to China and disseminated many damaging documents. I'm sorry if you think it's a bad thing to spy on Russia and Turkey and I'm sorry if you think meeting cyberattacks with counter-cyberattacks is bad.

This guy is no hero, he's a grandstanding traitor with one possible scintilla of redeeming value. As I have stated previously, there were better options to deal with PRISM than to flee to a communist country and leak to the foreign press.

In the 80s and 90s when NSA and Intel was focused on the godless Commies, there was continuous lying and misreprentation of our programs to the public. In that case with Russia targeting us for nuclear annihilation, there was no urgency to point out the details that the govt wanted protected.

But today with drones killing Americans on foreign soil with no oversight, and all the revelations about NSA being redirected at their new target (YOU), it's a different moral dilemma. In THIS CASE, the lying and misrepresentation is obnoxious and cynical. And Congress and the past Admins have counted on our laziness and complacency and an inept press to get away with it.

Personally, if I were on the inside now, govt lying about it would STILL not move me to Civil Disobedience IF --- the programs were anywhere NEAR the bounds of the enabling legislation. But they are not..

Lemme ask you about the oversight for this farce..

1) What is the ratio warrants APPROVED to warrants REFUSED by FISA in the past 4 years? (hint approved/total is > 99.9%)

2) Can you assure me that the FISA panel is NOT lifetime spooks with Military decorations doing the "judge" thing between spying gigs?

3) What is the purpose of keeping the ENTIRE warrant secret and preventing companies from seeking relief in the common courts?

4) Do you really condone tapping content of voice and data with the sorry ass excuse that some FISA judge rubberstamps a warrant within 3 days of the tap?

5) Do you have ANY SENSE of self-preservation??

6) Do you know that the weapon below will not be used against the citizens of this country?

Tell me how Snowden exchanging information for temporary safety will help stop all that.

Here's a hint: it won't.

 

[asterism]

Wow, maybe because no conventional means of blowing the whistle would have succeeded on a project this ******* large. There's no way he could have used "the system" to expose the ULTIMATE SYSTEM.

Maybe, but YOU don't know that. My point is the poll does not allow for additional options that are relevant to the discussion.

He has acted traitorous...whether he has committed treason is a legal argument to be made.

That's a point I hadn't considered. I was simply seeking opinions 'cause in my mind I assumed Snowden's behavior would split both conservatives and liberals and a real interesting debate would follow. In that I was wrong; it became mostly "ain't Obama awful" once again. Racism once again trumps rationality.

Racism?

It appears you have missed most of the posts in this thread.

Idiot.

 

[Katzndogz]

Being a traitor and committing treason are not necessarily the same thing...legally speaking.

He had the option of being a "whistle blower", but chose instead to handle it in a very traitorous manner- I would like to know why he did so.

Because he KNOWS that our government is untrustworthy.

 

[asterism]

Being a traitor and committing treason are not necessarily the same thing...legally speaking.

He had the option of being a "whistle blower", but chose instead to handle it in a very traitorous manner- I would like to know why he did so.

Wow, maybe because no conventional means of blowing the whistle would have succeeded on a project this ******* large. There's no way he could have used "the system" to expose the ULTIMATE SYSTEM.

Why not contact one of those federal judges he bragged about being able to spy on? Why not do some research and find the numerous former operators that share his views but actually know how to get things done?

Why pick China of all places?