Trayvon Martin And The Right To Be Left Alone...

[Peach]

You have no proof one way or the other, as to where Trayvon was. The court will find this out.
How are you so certain that Tayvon was nowhere near Zimmerman?
Why do think that Zimmerman did not want to meet in front of his place and wanted to meet in front of the mailboxes?
This will also come out in the trial.

A clip of the call Zimmerman made to the police was played on television. The dispatcher asked for Zimmerman's address and he said that he didn't want to say out loud because he didn't know where the suspicious person was and didn't want his address overheard. That's why he suggested that they meet in front of the mailboxes.

That is why I asked the question in the first place. What happend that he did not want Trayvon to know where he lived?

He did not want the victim, who was hiding, to know his address; Zimmerman thought Trayvon Martin was a danger. For what reason, one can only speculate.

 

[Jarhead]

A clip of the call Zimmerman made to the police was played on television. The dispatcher asked for Zimmerman's address and he said that he didn't want to say out loud because he didn't know where the suspicious person was and didn't want his address overheard. That's why he suggested that they meet in front of the mailboxes.

That is why I asked the question in the first place. What happend that he did not want Trayvon to know where he lived?

He did not want the victim, who was hiding, to know his address; Zimmerman thought Trayvon Martin was a danger. For what reason, one can only speculate.

there were 4 break ins that month in the community. It would be enough for me not to allow my address to be heard by someone whom I did not recognize walking in the community.

 

[Peach]

That is why I asked the question in the first place. What happend that he did not want Trayvon to know where he lived?

He did not want the victim, who was hiding, to know his address; Zimmerman thought Trayvon Martin was a danger. For what reason, one can only speculate.

there were 4 break ins that month in the community. It would be enough for me not to allow my address to be heard by someone whom I did not recognize walking in the community.

He thought the "suspicious" person was close enough to hear him? New Judge named.

 

[Jarhead]

He did not want the victim, who was hiding, to know his address; Zimmerman thought Trayvon Martin was a danger. For what reason, one can only speculate.

there were 4 break ins that month in the community. It would be enough for me not to allow my address to be heard by someone whom I did not recognize walking in the community.

He thought the "suspicious" person was close enough to hear him?

I assume so. Otherwise he wouldn't have had a reason to not say his address out loud.

 

[Gadawg73]

The prosecution is going to try and keep out the prior break ins there in the community as irrelevant to the killing. I would also do that if I was the prosecutor as that would be my job.
But as soon as the 911 tapes come in then that opens the door to allow all of the prior break ins and all of those poilce reports. But then that also allows in all of the 911 nuisance calls that Zimmerman made and I guarantee the prosecution will have numerous cops to testify how many of those calls Zimmerman made were false alarms.
But the jury will most likely see the reports and dispositions of all of the break ins there and that helps Zimmerman tremendously. Additionally, is it possible Martin was casing the neighborhood? Well that is a double edged sword for the defense as there were NO burglary tools on Martin so if they go down that road they have little to go on other than his route took a very long time but that is not evidence of any guilt. Could have been other calls he made other than his girl friend and maybe she was helping him.
But the evidence does not look like it is there for that. I find it very hard for the defense to pin that on Martin but the prior break ins do give Zimmerman a reason to be there and the police never told him "Do not do that".

 

[Gadawg73]

Do not care who you are. If I was on that a jury the fact that I am a white southern male would have nothing to do with it.
Do not care that this young man Martin had trouble before and possibly could have started the confrontation.
Trayvon Martin is the dead individual at the end of the day. That is why I believed from the start that this should be prosecuted as a voluntary and maybe an involuntary manslaughter case.
Would not take much evidence at all for me to convict on involuntary manslaughter. Zimmerman has the gun. All it has to do is go off and that pretty much convicts him if he is involved in the preliminary confrontation, stand your ground or not. Depends on the first blow.
Too many unknowns.

 

[paperview]

Whom told him to "Back Off"? NO ONE. And IF you claim 'Dispatcher'? They can only *ADVISE* they aren't LEO's.

Zimmerman was specifically informed by Sanford Police NOT to get physically involved in any suspicious activity he reports.

You do not know the truth because you have done no research.

Zimmerman was told "you do not have to" which means that he could choose not do it for his own safety.
Never was told NOT to get physically involved.
Why do you have to make things up? Is it because your argument holds no weight otherwise?

Sanford Police Department Neighborhood Watch Guidelines

You will add your “eyes and ears” to
those of the Police Department which
cannot be everywhere, all the time, by
keeping a watchful eye and open ear to
what is happening in your
neighborhood. You will extend their
ability to provide security by reporting
anything unusual or suspicious, 24 hours
a day, seven days a week, so they can
follow up on your leads. What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency.

^^^^ Emphasis THEIRS.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/NWProgramHandbook.pdf

In big bold-up fonts the above words there INSIST people are not to " get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehen[d] of any suspicious persons."

They do that in not only one area of the NW Guidelines, but twice.
In BOLD letters.

We KNOW Zimmerman was told by police this, as Z was the one who helped facilitate the NW meeting with the Sanford Police Chief for guidelines, and as contact and Captain would necessarily need to be informed of the rules:

Twin Lakes at Retreat news letter -Sept 2011:
George Zimmerman's name listed as contact & that Chief Lee was coming to next meeting:

RTL Newsletter September 2011 FINAL

Feb 2012 Twin Lakes at Retreat news letter - George Zimmerman identified as Captain.

RTL February 2012 Newsletter

SFP -meeting with residents after shooting - Relaying Zimmerman was acting as NW at the time.

Sanford PD Meeting

 

[Katzndogz]

Of course that rule does not apply if the neighborhood watch is physically attacked themselves.

 

[catzmeow]

The prosecution is going to try and keep out the prior break ins there in the community as irrelevant to the killing. I would also do that if I was the prosecutor as that would be my job.
But as soon as the 911 tapes come in then that opens the door to allow all of the prior break ins and all of those poilce reports. But then that also allows in all of the 911 nuisance calls that Zimmerman made and I guarantee the prosecution will have numerous cops to testify how many of those calls Zimmerman made were false alarms.
But the jury will most likely see the reports and dispositions of all of the break ins there and that helps Zimmerman tremendously. Additionally, is it possible Martin was casing the neighborhood? Well that is a double edged sword for the defense as there were NO burglary tools on Martin so if they go down that road they have little to go on other than his route took a very long time but that is not evidence of any guilt. Could have been other calls he made other than his girl friend and maybe she was helping him.
But the evidence does not look like it is there for that. I find it very hard for the defense to pin that on Martin but the prior break ins do give Zimmerman a reason to be there and the police never told him "Do not do that".

In most areas, Neighborhood Watch volunteers must complete a mandatory training. In these training programs, it is made clear that Neighborhood Watch volunteers are to WATCH and REPORT. They are not to become directly involved in criminal activity or intervene directly. In fact, the most common protocol, if they observe a crime, is to IMMEDIATELY depart the area, and let police respond.

Thus, regardless of what the dispatcher said, or didn't say, I suspect that the Sanford PD already delivered the message about non-intervention, multiple times. Mr. Zimmerman chose, for whatever reason, to disregard that message.

In fact, I bet that he even has a copy of this manual since it is the standard for training these kinds of groups:

https://www.bja.gov/Publications/NSA_NW_Manual.pdf (See highlighted section on page 22).

 

[nodoginnafight]

Do not care who you are. If I was on that a jury the fact that I am a white southern male would have nothing to do with it.
Do not care that this young man Martin had trouble before and possibly could have started the confrontation.
Trayvon Martin is the dead individual at the end of the day. That is why I believed from the start that this should be prosecuted as a voluntary and maybe an involuntary manslaughter case.
Would not take much evidence at all for me to convict on involuntary manslaughter. Zimmerman has the gun. All it has to do is go off and that pretty much convicts him if he is involved in the preliminary confrontation, stand your ground or not. Depends on the first blow.
Too many unknowns.

My first reaction was manslaughter as well. Second-degree murder seems steep based on what I've put together from the admittedly horrible news coverage. Apparently they know a lot more than we do (thank God).

 

[peach174]

No, the police never told Zimmerman "Do not do that".
It was the 911 dispatcher that said "it wasn't necessary for Zimmerman to follow him".
Had Zimmerman actually followed this advise, I don't think this would have happened in the first place.

 

[Peach]

The prosecution is going to try and keep out the prior break ins there in the community as irrelevant to the killing. I would also do that if I was the prosecutor as that would be my job.
But as soon as the 911 tapes come in then that opens the door to allow all of the prior break ins and all of those poilce reports. But then that also allows in all of the 911 nuisance calls that Zimmerman made and I guarantee the prosecution will have numerous cops to testify how many of those calls Zimmerman made were false alarms.
But the jury will most likely see the reports and dispositions of all of the break ins there and that helps Zimmerman tremendously. Additionally, is it possible Martin was casing the neighborhood? Well that is a double edged sword for the defense as there were NO burglary tools on Martin so if they go down that road they have little to go on other than his route took a very long time but that is not evidence of any guilt. Could have been other calls he made other than his girl friend and maybe she was helping him.
But the evidence does not look like it is there for that. I find it very hard for the defense to pin that on Martin but the prior break ins do give Zimmerman a reason to be there and the police never told him "Do not do that".

In most areas, Neighborhood Watch volunteers must complete a mandatory training. I suspect that Zimmerman participated in one of these trainings, as well. In these training programs, it is made clear that Neighborhood Watch volunteers are to WATCH and REPORT. They are not to become directly involved in criminal activity or intervene directly.
The police department dispatcher is not responsible to tell each neighborhood watcher during each report that they are not to directly intervene. The Neighborhood Watch volunteers have already been trained, and this is generally emphasized on a repeated basis.

Thus, I suspect that the Sanford PD already delivered the message about non-intervention, multiple times. Mr. Zimmerman chose, for whatever reason, to disregard that message.

In fact, I bet that he even has a copy of this manual since it is the standard for training these kinds of groups:

https://www.bja.gov/Publications/NSA_NW_Manual.pdf (See highlighted section on page 22).

Some sat Martin attacked Zimmerman; as a 17 year old with no criminal record, it would be a first. But Zimmerman had no convictions known, as of this time.

 

[catzmeow]

Some sat Martin attacked Zimmerman; as a 17 year old with no criminal record, it would be a first. But Zimmerman had no convictions known, as of this time.

There is a lot of information that we simply don't have, and which hasn't been released by the prosecutor. The wisest course of action is to withhold judgement on Zimmerman's guilt or innocence until the facts come out at trial.

I do believe that Zimmerman was engaged in mobile Neighborhood Watch, and thus, he had a vehicle. He should not have exited his vehicle while serving in that role.

I'm interested to hear explanations for many of the so-called "facts" in this case.

 

[Gadawg73]

The prosecution is going to try and keep out the prior break ins there in the community as irrelevant to the killing. I would also do that if I was the prosecutor as that would be my job.
But as soon as the 911 tapes come in then that opens the door to allow all of the prior break ins and all of those poilce reports. But then that also allows in all of the 911 nuisance calls that Zimmerman made and I guarantee the prosecution will have numerous cops to testify how many of those calls Zimmerman made were false alarms.
But the jury will most likely see the reports and dispositions of all of the break ins there and that helps Zimmerman tremendously. Additionally, is it possible Martin was casing the neighborhood? Well that is a double edged sword for the defense as there were NO burglary tools on Martin so if they go down that road they have little to go on other than his route took a very long time but that is not evidence of any guilt. Could have been other calls he made other than his girl friend and maybe she was helping him.
But the evidence does not look like it is there for that. I find it very hard for the defense to pin that on Martin but the prior break ins do give Zimmerman a reason to be there and the police never told him "Do not do that".

In most areas, Neighborhood Watch volunteers must complete a mandatory training. I suspect that Zimmerman participated in one of these trainings, as well. In these training programs, it is made clear that Neighborhood Watch volunteers are to WATCH and REPORT. They are not to become directly involved in criminal activity or intervene directly.
The police department dispatcher is not responsible to tell each neighborhood watcher during each report that they are not to directly intervene. The Neighborhood Watch volunteers have already been trained, and this is generally emphasized on a repeated basis.

Thus, I suspect that the Sanford PD already delivered the message about non-intervention, multiple times. Mr. Zimmerman chose, for whatever reason, to disregard that message.

In fact, I bet that he even has a copy of this manual since it is the standard for training these kinds of groups:

https://www.bja.gov/Publications/NSA_NW_Manual.pdf (See highlighted section on page 22).

If your target is mobile and moving how does one "watch and report" if they do not follow?
Where is there ANY evidence Zimmerman intervened?
Is it possible he didn't and Martin was the one that FIRST intervened?
Fact is watching and reporting INVOLVES pursuing your target if that target is mobile.
You can pursue, watch anbd report WITHOUT intervening easily and that is usually what happens. How does one watch and report without moving?

 

[Gadawg73]

Some sat Martin attacked Zimmerman; as a 17 year old with no criminal record, it would be a first. But Zimmerman had no convictions known, as of this time.

There is a lot of information that we simply don't have, and which hasn't been released by the prosecutor. The wisest course of action is to withhold judgement on Zimmerman's guilt or innocence until the facts come out at trial.

I do believe that Zimmerman was engaged in mobile Neighborhood Watch, and thus, he had a vehicle. He should not have exited his vehicle while serving in that role.

I'm interested to hear explanations for many of the so-called "facts" in this case.

So Neighborhood Watch is specified as only in your vehicle?
Where is that?

 

[paperview]

In September, the Sanford police helped the Retreat start a neighborhood watch program.

"Some residents called me wanting to do a startup," said Dorival, a civilian police employee. About 30 people came to the clubhouse for that first session, she said. "Everyone was enthusiastic." Zimmerman volunteered to be captain.

"I told them, this is not about being a vigilante police force," Dorival said. "You're not even supposed to patrol on neighborhood watch. And you're certainly not supposed to carry a gun."

Trayvon Martin's killing shatters safety within Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford - Tampa Bay Times


Sanford Police Department Neighborhood Watch Guidelines

You will add your “eyes and ears” to
those of the Police Department which
cannot be everywhere, all the time, by
keeping a watchful eye and open ear to
what is happening in your
neighborhood. You will extend their
ability to provide security by reporting
anything unusual or suspicious, 24 hours
a day, seven days a week, so they can
follow up on your leads. What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/NWProgramHandbook.pdf

 

[nodoginnafight]

Zimmerman lied to police when he told them that it was his voice that was recorded calling for help.
Why?

 

[paperview]

cya.

 

[Ariux]

There is a lot of information that we simply don't have, and which hasn't been released by the prosecutor. The wisest course of action is to withhold judgement on Zimmerman's guilt or innocence until the facts come out at trial.

I bet an African cracked your skull open and half of your brains spilled out, just because he caught you looking at him. What else could explain that you aren't aware that a tremendous amount of facts have already been shared with the public?

I do believe that Zimmerman was engaged in mobile Neighborhood Watch, and thus, he had a vehicle. He should not have exited his vehicle while serving in that role.

It's true that Zimmerman should have stayed in his SUV. But, only for his own protection, not because there's some law saying so, nor even a rule in the Boy Scout manual. The shitbrained Trayvon supporters can't understand this, well, because instead of having brains in their skull, they have a ball of shit.

 

[catzmeow]

If your target is mobile and moving how does one "watch and report" if they do not follow?

You provide the law enforcement agency with a description of the suspicious behavior, the suspect(s) involved, and the direction they went. You do not follow or pursue. That's not the role of NW. NW groups are not security guards or law enforcement. A lot of neighborhood watchers are elderly and/or female.

Where is there ANY evidence Zimmerman intervened?

He left his vehicle, it appears, voluntarily. An attempt to confront Mr. Martin is the most likely explanation.

Is it possible he didn't and Martin was the one that FIRST intervened?

Do you think that Martin pulled Zimmerman out of his car? It's possible, but unlikely.

Fact is watching and reporting INVOLVES pursuing your target if that target is mobile.

Not in Neighborhood Watch, it doesn't. There are even more stringent guidelines involved when you are talking about mobile NW (NW in vehicles), because of the risk of physical harm and liability involved when you add a vehicle to any equation.

You watch, you report, you depart the scene. The end. I do not believe that Sanford PD has a MOBILE Neighborhood Watch program, and thus, Zimmerman shouldn't even have been "patrolling" in his vehicle under the auspices of functioning as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer.

You can pursue, watch anbd report WITHOUT intervening easily and that is usually what happens. How does one watch and report without moving?

NO. That is not how it usually happens EVEN IN MOBILE NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH. Mobile NW is a specific type of citizen-involved program, and it has specific protocols designed to avoid liability for the police department sponsoring the program. Zimmerman wasn't participating in a mobile program. Thus, his NW activities should have been limited to observing/reporting activities directly around his home and normal activities.

See, if a police department sponsors and trains volunteers in a program, and someone is injured or killed as a volunteer in this program (or kills/injures someone else), the PD is potentially LIABLE for damages/injuries. That's why NW volunteers are trained not to follow or engage.

Sanford PD isn't saying this stuff, because their attorney has most likely advised them not to, in order to avoid creating greater liability for Zimmerman's actions. They also don't want to taint the criminal case.

However, I guarantee that there are a lot of MNW and NW groups around the U.S. who've received a sternly worded lecture from someone in their sponsoring PD in the past few weeks regarding following possible suspects.