Zone1 Transgender redux

[Curried Goats]

More like 4000%, and yes it's a fact.

Sure it is. And you can prove it....

 

[Curried Goats]

Yes, I can, as it has already been reported. Too bad you're a sick little deviant and aren't at all interested in facts, so nobody cares if you accept it or not; you revel in the sexual mutilation of children. As for the Peanut Gallery, they easily find the studies and reports, since it;s widely reported as a social contagion.

No you can't and that's obvious because you haven't and instead have responded with personal attacks instead.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Another long diatribe where you enter your own commentary as if it was a trans patients.

At the end of the study 94% still identified as trans and the majority who didn't identified as non binary. Only 2.5 transitioned back to their biological gender.

In other words, they spun the numbers.

Also important to note is that when they say transition back that is a very loose term. With kids this age that could just mean dressing more like the biological sex and changing their pronouns because kids at 6-10 they have not gone through puberty and so have not been put on puberty blockers.

Yes, transition, transition back, identify, changing pronouns are all very loose terms. That is appropriate to use when talking about something as loose as kids' perception of themselves.

I have no political issue with "social transition," i.e. a boy wanting to wear a dress and be called by a girl's name. I think that it is pretty silly, and most often driven by agendized parents, but I don't think it should be banned.

I do believe that hormonal and surgical treatment should be banned for children. The claim of suicide prevention is not based on any science. Suicide is very high among transgenders, and there is absolutely no science that shows that giving hormones to kids and surgically altering them reduces that.

In fact, the science shows the opposite:

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective To estimate mortality...

journals.plos.org

Conclusions​

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

Increased psychiatric care is exactly what is needed. Try to find ways to cope with the mental disorder of Gender Dyphoria without resorting to permanent body alterations.

 

[martybegan]

In other words, they spun the numbers.

Yes, transition, transition back, identify, changing pronouns are all very loose terms. That is appropriate to use when talking about something as loose as kids' perception of themselves.

I have no political issue with "social transition," i.e. a boy wanting to wear a dress and be called by a girl's name. I think that it is pretty silly, and most often driven by agendized parents, but I don't think it should be banned.

I do believe that hormonal and surgical treatment should be banned for children. The claim of suicide prevention is not based on any science. Suicide is very high among transgenders, and there is absolutely no science that shows that giving hormones to kids and surgically altering them reduces that.

In fact, the science shows the opposite:

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective To estimate mortality...

journals.plos.org

Conclusions​

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

Increased psychiatric care is exactly what is needed. Try to find ways to cope with the mental disorder of Gender Dyphoria without resorting to permanent body alterations.

Because in the end nothing can give them what they think they want, just a poor copy of what they think they want.

 

[Curried Goats]

In other words, they spun the numbers.

Those are your words and they aren't really supported by the fact that your explanation of the numbers came almost verbatim from their own site.

Yes, transition, transition back, identify, changing pronouns are all very loose terms. That is appropriate to use when talking about something as loose as kids' perception of themselves.

Glad we can agree it's appropriate unless you're being sarcastic in which case you need to explain what's inappropriate about it.

I have no political issue with "social transition," i.e. a boy wanting to wear a dress and be called by a girl's name. I think that it is pretty silly, and most often driven by agendized parents, but I don't think it should be banned.

Is this thinking based on any facts you can present or just your personal bias?

I do believe that hormonal and surgical treatment should be banned for children. The claim of suicide prevention is not based on any science.

Well its not not science just because you say so.

Suicide is very high among transgenders, and there is absolutely no science that shows that giving hormones to kids and surgically altering them reduces that.

There is. I provided the study for you and you did not even address the facts in it. You responded with open ended questions and innuendo as if that was refutation.

In fact, the science shows the opposite:

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective To estimate mortality...

journals.plos.org

Conclusions​

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

Increased psychiatric care is exactly what is needed. Try to find ways to cope with the mental disorder of Gender Dyphoria without resorting to permanent body alterations.

Again your study is from 2004. While it concludes reassignment address gender dysphoria, we now know trans people still face depression and risk of suicide because of outside discrimination and bullying.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Those are your words and they aren't really supported by the fact that your explanation of the numbers came almost verbatim from their own site.

They spun the numbers by claiming that only three percent changed their mind about being transgeder.

Glad we can agree it's appropriate unless you're being sarcastic in which case you need to explain what's inappropriate about it.

It is appriate to use loose terminology when discussing early adolescents' feelings about their identity. Those feeling are most often very loose, malleable, and constantly changing. What is inappropriate is using life-altering treatments to somehow keep up with these ever changing feelings.

Is this thinking based on any facts you can present or just your personal bias?

Well its not not science just because you say so.

The science is that suicide is very high among transgenders who hormonally and surgically transition from their natural biological sex into the appearance of their desired sex.

Results
The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Conclusions​

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective To estimate mortality...

journals.plos.org

There is. I provided the study for you and you did not even address the facts in it. You responded with open ended questions and innuendo as if that was refutation.

I did address it, and I predicted that we would be talking past each other when I did. Clearly I was right. Here it is again:

There is much more, and would be well worth reading, if you want to be an informed person and not a victim of misinformation. It is post #111 of this thread.

Keep in mind that the study I posted above is a thirty year study, whereas the one in the article you posted was a one year study. My study counted actual suicides, while yours counted self-reported "suicidal ideation," reported by people who understood exactly what the study was about and what answers would best further the cause of transgender treatments for kids.

Your study was sponsored by Pfizer. Give me a break.

 

[Curried Goats]

They spun the numbers by claiming that only three percent changed their mind about being transgeder.

They did not. You got all your nuanced info on the numbers from them.

It is appriate to use loose terminology when discussing early adolescents' feelings about their identity. Those feeling are most often very loose, malleable, and constantly changing. What is inappropriate is using life-altering treatments to somehow keep up with these ever changing feelings.

Was your gender identity constantly changing? Mine wasn't. Treatments are appropriate for people who are suffering. Unfortunately medicine isn't an exact science. Everyone is different and what treatment works best for people might take some trail and error. A success rate of 94% is pretty damn good as far as treatments go.

The science is that suicide is very high among transgenders who hormonally and surgically transition from their natural biological sex into the appearance of their desired sex.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective To estimate mortality...

journals.plos.org

Results​

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Conclusions​

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment. Objective To estimate mortality...

journals.plos.org

I did address it, and I predicted that we would be talking past each other when I did. Clearly I was right. Here it is again:

View attachment 730766

There is much more, and would be well worth reading, if you want to be an informed person and not a victim of misinformation. It is post #111 of this thread.

Keep in mind that the study I posted above is a thirty year study, whereas the one in the article you posted was a one year study. My study counted actual suicides, while yours counted self-reported "suicidal ideation," reported by people who understood exactly what the study was about and what answers would best further the cause of transgender treatments for kids.

Your study was sponsored by Pfizer. Give me a break.

Again your study is from 2004. It's nearly 2 decades old. We know now that trans individuals who received gender affirming care as teenagers fair better than those who underwent gender reassignment after surgery and we know that there are outside psychological stressers for trans outside of their gender dysphoria.

 

[Seymour Flops]

They did not. You got all your nuanced info on the numbers from them.

Yes, because I read the study and not just the article, as you did. The article spun that it was three percent, which was false.

Was your gender identity constantly changing? Mine wasn't. Treatments are appropriate for people who are suffering. Unfortunately medicine isn't an exact science. Everyone is different and what treatment works best for people might take some trail and error. A success rate of 94% is pretty damn good as far as treatments go.

Based on a one year study by Pfizer of "suicidal ideation" instead of actual suicide?

I'm surprised Pfizer did not insist that it be 99%.

Again your study is from 2004. It's nearly 2 decades old. We know now that trans individuals who received gender affirming care as teenagers fair better than those who underwent gender reassignment after surgery and we know that there are outside psychological stressers for trans outside of their gender dysphoria.

No way you had time to read that study, which is no surprise. You don't seem to read any, just commentary about studies in the popular press.

Sure there are psychological stressors. Being subjected to medical and surgical treatments for a psychological disorder would stress anyone.

 

[Curried Goats]

Yes, because I read the study and not just the article, as you did. The article spun that it was three percent, which was false.

So they study "spun" something that they explained in detail...

Based on a one year study by Pfizer of "suicidal ideation" instead of actual suicide?

I'm surprised Pfizer did not insist that it be 99%.

Ad hominem attacks.

No way you had time to read that study, which is no surprise. You don't seem to read any, just commentary about studies in the popular press.

Sure there are psychological stressors. Being subjected to medical and surgical treatments for a psychological disorder would stress ananyone.

It's the same study you published days ago. I read it. I also read it's nearly 2 decades old.

 

[Ame®icano]

ding

This seems a more appropriate place to continue our discussion.

Here is the original link I provided which was an article published by Cleveland Clinic giving a general summation of findings from a multitude of studies being done on transgenderism.

Research on the Transgender Brain: What You Should Know

You have decided to concentrate on this one in particular.

Specific cerebral activation due to visual erotic stimuli in male-to-female transsexuals compared with male and female controls: an fMRI study - PubMed

Which was a study on a response to erotic stimuli in male to female trans participants compared to responses to that same stimuli in biologically female participants. Your main argument (supported by the anecdotal evidence of your friend from college) is that sex preference can change and that gay men would have the same response to erotic stimuli as straight women. The first part can be dismissed out of hand. Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. As for the second part the introduction to that study explains why that isn't possible.


Introduction: Transsexuals harbor the strong feeling of having been born to the wrong sex. There is a continuing controversial discussion of whether or not transsexualism has a biological representation. Differences between males and females in terms of functional imaging during erotic stimuli have been previously described, revealing gender-specific results.

Notice the bolded section there? It's telling you that there are male/female biological differences in response to erotic stimulus and that the brains of gay men respond in the same manner as straight men to erotic stimulus as do gay and straight women.

Any other questions?

Your Cleveland Clinic research link provides no data to research. It just gives "opinions" based on undisclosed small sample. It's the exactly the same link you offer as an argument in other threads too, but without data, there is no argument.

From your own link: “Research in these areas is extremely limited, and more research needs to be done to find conclusive results,” Dr. Altinay notes. “But we’re already seeing definite trends.”

In other words, you're repeating yourself by spewing unfounded propaganda over and over.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

What if they're just sick mentally ill freaks and so are their supporters? That of course is the only scientifically viable fact.

I would sooner conclude that those people who have a pathological need to demean and ridicule others who go against the grain of the popular culture in their expression of gender are the ones who have mental and emotional problems

I would also suggest that people consider what it is that so threatens them about the simple existence of people who –for whatever reasons – do not conform to the standard binary model of gender-what compels them to paint them as defective and freaks and deny their humanity and uniqueness. It could be anything from irrational fears of changes in culture and society that they do not understand and can’t adapt to- to issues with their own gender identity that they're struggling with. Thoughts?

Lastly, I really have to wonder just how stupid people have to be to actually believe that those who look at the science that contains clear evidence of a biological basis for gender dysphoria as well as ample evidence that some people are not clearly male or female- are the “science deniers”- while they themselves continually bleat about how there are only two genders and men can never be women and women can never be men- and conclude that it just mental illness.

Note: For the record, the question of whether or not there are more then two genders is idiotic and meaningless. You could argue that every variation on maleness or femaleness in another gender. Or one can conclude that there are just two genders with variations on each gender. The fact is that it is all just words. People are what they are, end of story.

Note: Those who advocate for the rights and recognition of transgender people do not believe that a person's DNA can be altered in order to produce a woman from what was once a man-or visa versa, as some stupidly (or dishonestly) suggest. We support anatomical changes that help a person better allign with their gender identity that is often a product of underlying biological factors-including genetics.

Trans people are not the zombie apocalypse. The bigots and transphobes are the zombies

 

[Seymour Flops]

I would sooner conclude that those people who have a pathological need to demean and ridicule others who go against the grain of the popular culture in their expression of gender are the ones who have mental and emotional problems

I would also suggest that people consider what it is that so threatens them about the simple existence of people who –for whatever reasons – do not conform to the standard binary model of gender-what compels them to paint them as defective and freaks and deny their humanity and uniqueness. It could be anything from irrational fears of changes in culture and society that they do not understand and can’t adapt to- to issues with their own gender identity that they're struggling with. Thoughts?

I have some thoughts to share with you.

First of all, yes. There will always be people who hate the existence of people who do not conform to the binary model of gender - AKA nature and science. But it is false to say that they are "threatened" by that existence. Your attempt to supposedly analyze them and claim that htey must be struggling with gender themselves is a rather childish attempt at insulting them by accusing them of something you claim not to have a problem with.

You're better off by saying that they are mean assholes, because some people are just mean assholes, who dont' like to live and let live.

Lastly, I really have to wonder just how stupid people have to be to actually believe that those who look at the science that contains clear evidence of a biological basis for gender dysphoria as well as ample evidence that some people are not clearly male or female- are the “science deniers”- while they themselves continually bleat about how there are only two genders and men can never be women and women can never be men- and conclude that it just mental illness.

There is no clear evidence for a biological basis for gender dysphoria nor ample evidence that some people are not clearly male or female. There are only some inconclusive studies by highly agendized researchers who came up with no such evidence. You sound like you're making claims based on headlines that you din't bother to click on and read.

Note: For the record, the question of whether or not there are more then two genders is idiotic and meaningless. You could argue that every variation on maleness or femaleness in another gender. Or one can conclude that there are just two genders with variations on each gender. The fact is that it is all just words. People are what they are, end of story.

The part in bold is what any reasonable person would conclude. Of course there are two genders, and of course there are varying characteristics within the hundreds of millions of individuals of each gender. Out of those hundreds of millions there are a tiny minority that have physical characteristics of both genders, but larger minorities who have the psychological characteristics of the opposite gender.

Note: Those who advocate for the rights and recognition of transgender people do not believe that a person's DNA can be altered in order to produce a woman from what was once a man-or visa versa, as some stupidly (or dishonestly) suggest. We support anatomical changes that help a person better allign with their gender identity that is often a product of underlying biological factors-including genetics.

Good for you. Pay for it yourself, and confine your support for mutilation and chemical castration to adults.

Even for adults, I think that they would be better served if you encouraged them to accept themselves as they are and not do self-harm.

Trans people are not the zombie apocalypse. The bigots and transphobes are the zombies

Nobody cares if you go to drag shows and/or compete in amateur night. Just leave them kids alone.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I would sooner conclude that those people who have a pathological need to demean and ridicule others who go against the grain of the popular culture in their expression of gender are the ones who have mental and emotional problems

Your clumsy and absurd attempt at an Argumentum ad populum notwithstanding, the grain of popular culture always has, and always will consist of those of us who recognize the clear distinction between male and female. The hard truth is that those yourself, who are sincerely confused about this distinction, will always be a tiny, insignificant minority even in insane times such as these, where you are given a voice far out of proportion to your actual numbers.

Men will never be women, and women will never be men, and those of you who do not know the difference will never be anything but an extreme fringe.

The mental and emotional problems are yours, not ours.

 

[jotathought]

I would sooner conclude that those people who have a pathological need to demean and ridicule others who go against the grain of the popular culture in their expression of gender are the ones who have mental and emotional problems

Men pretending to be women and then taking showers or changing in the same locker room is not popular. Nor is sexually mutilating genitals or taking puberty blockers by minors. Until recent decades, transgender behavior was seen as a mental illness and now science is trying to prove you can be something you never will be.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Men pretending to be women and then taking showers or changing in the same locker room is not popular. Nor is sexually mutilating genitals or taking puberty blockers by minors. Until recent decades, transgender behavior was seen as a mental illness and now science is trying to prove you can be something you never will be.

Genuine science is doing no such thing.

That is promoters of evil and madness, trying to disguise their filth as “science”. Do not be fooled by it, and do not help them to fool others.

What you hear, from these elements, being called “science” is no such thing at all, but a twisted and ruined mockery of science.

 

[JoeMoma]

Trans-ideology is Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Men pretending to be women and then taking showers or changing in the same locker room is not popular. Nor is sexually mutilating genitals or taking puberty blockers by minors. Until recent decades, transgender behavior was seen as a mental illness and now science is trying to prove you can be something you never will be.

Thank you for that well researched and thoughtful dissertation on the social, psychological and biological aspects of the transgender phenomena. It’s apparent that you have a deep understanding of the issue and are highly sensitive to the needs and experiences of those experiencing gender dysphoria. I would guess that have multiple advanced degrees from the finest institutions of higher learning in all the related disciplines that touch on the issue. I am especially impressed by your deep understanding of how it’s really all about locker rooms and mutilation. You really knocked it out of the park with that one. Please keep blessing us with your pearls of wisdom. You have raised the bar on the level of intellectual discourse on the USMB

 

[Resnic]

What if they're just sick mentally ill freaks and so are their supporters? That of course is the only scientifically viable fact.

Most of them aren't sick. They are just incredibly stupid and highly impressionable. Or a sexual freak.

Most trannies are kids and very young adults. Meaning they don't know shit about shit. Even the young adult ones are still in the age range of trying to grow into their adult selves.

That's what young adults do, they become a skater, a goth, a nerd or some persona they adopt from their peers and adults tell them they will grow out of it and they do eventually and become their adult selves. But you once had adults that said you'll grow out of it, now praise them and encourage their kid personas of being trannies. So now they won't grow out of it because everyone tells them this is who they are.

Then on the other side of the tranny coin is older adults who become trannies because they are sexual deviants and pervs who do it for sexual gratification.

You don't see many 39 year olds becoming trannies, it's always young impressionable and dumb kids, or old pervs.

It also doesn't help kids now have the world as their peers via the internet. Once they had peers their own age they actually knew and spent time with. No kids have peers allover of different age ranges all hiring behind a screen so all the weirdos and pervs can creep in through the kids screens.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

First of all, yes. There will always be people who hate the existence of people who do not conform to the binary model of gender - AKA nature and science. But it is false to say that they are "threatened" by that existence. Your attempt to supposedly analyze them and claim that htey must be struggling with gender themselves is a rather childish attempt at insulting them by accusing them of something you claim not to have a problem with.

You're better off by saying that they are mean assholes, because some people are just mean assholes, who dont' like to live and let live.

Call it childish if you like. I think that it's close to home.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

There is no clear evidence for a biological basis for gender dysphoria nor ample evidence that some people are not clearly male or female. There are only some inconclusive studies by highly agendized researchers who came up with no such evidence. You sound like you're making claims based on headlines that you din't bother to click on and read.

Your opinion, and only an opinion.