Time to rename our Confederate Forts

[9thIDdoc]

What about the 12 US Presidents who were slave owners, shouldn't we tear down their monuments, and rename any town, or city, or street, or base, named after them? And some of them are on our money, shouldn't we take them off the money?

Did any of those 12 take up arms against our nation to ensure they could keep owning slaves?

The South took up arms to defend home family and slaves from foreign invaders. The North killed combatants women (who they often raped) children and slaves alike as well as burned homes and cities of blacks and whites alike. Now they want to claim the moral high ground. Good luck with that.

 

[9thIDdoc]

We need to ask......What have these men done to deserve such an honor?

AP HIll, Braxton Bragg, George Pickett, John Bell Hood......why should they be honored?

Defending ones sacred lands and homes from an invasion sent by a Tyrant is more honorable than invading your neighbor because a Tyrant said so.

Defending the right to keep other human beings as slaves is the ultimate tyranny

The Confederacy had slavery for 4 years.
The USA had slavery for 89 years.

Sounds like a valid point......

But we are talking about the same assholes in the South owning slaves in both cases

Northern schools teach you that?

It’s a fact
Same assholes forced slavery into the United States, forced slavery into new territories and created a slave Confederacy

So you are OK with the USA having slavery but not the Confederacy. Double standards.

Like I said, it was the same group of southerners forcing slavery on the rest of the country.

Slavery was a southern institution

They had slavery in the North for 200 years dating back to the Colonial period, and they still had slavery in the North after the Civil War was over, and all the Confederate slaves were free. But Yankees dont teach true history.

Cut the nonsense

<sob> But, but....the North had slaves too!

There was minimal slavery in northern states, mostly border states where the stench of slavery had leached over.

There were 500,000 slaves in the North at the start of the Civil War. If that is minimal to you than you are even more of a racist Dim than I thought.

The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the South. In did not free slaves in the North. Look it up. There were slaves serving the in New Jersey Governors mansion throughout the Civil War.

In fact, technically the slaves in the North were not freed until 1867. So do not get on a high horse about how great the North was. In many ways they were just as much involved in the slave trade as the South.

Good point about New Jersey, they still had slavery when the Civil War ended. And they first voted NO to the 13th Amendment to free the slaves. NJ did not free their slaves until forced to with the ratification of the 13th Amendment.
But slavery in NJ is covered up.

NJ had no slaves in 1860

1860 United States census - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Didn't need slaves; they had women and children in sweat shops working under even worse conditions than slaves. They had the Irish.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

To Bush92 —
You know all about George Orwell? You know nothing.

George Orwell did not become “disillusioned over Stalin’s takeover of communist party of Russia,” because he was never a Communist. He became a socialist at the very same time he became a fervid opponent of Stalin’s totalitarianism. During his time in Spain he sympathized with anarcho-syndicalism, which was highly developed there. He volunteered to fight in the Spanish Republican cause because he was a democrat. He saw himself as an “ANTIFAscist” fighting Franco reaction and German fascism, which he saw early on threatened West Europe. Before that he actually served as a police official running a region in British Burma for a few years as a young man.

An intellectual, an artist, an anti-fascist, an anti-imperialist, he wrote near the end of his life in "Why I Write" (1946): "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it." Orwell was a proponent of a federal socialist Europe, a position outlined in his 1947 essay "Toward European Unity," which first appeared in the leftist Partisan Review.

Next time you want to quote Orwell, perhaps you should at least mention that he was a socialist and NOT a neo-Confederate apologist.

 

[rightwinger]

What about the 12 US Presidents who were slave owners, shouldn't we tear down their monuments, and rename any town, or city, or street, or base, named after them? And some of them are on our money, shouldn't we take them off the money?

Did any of those 12 take up arms against our nation to ensure they could keep owning slaves?

The South took up arms to defend home family and slaves from foreign invaders. The North killed combatants women (who they often raped) children and slaves alike as well as burned homes and cities of blacks and whites alike. Now they want to claim the moral high ground. Good luck with that.

They left the union and created their Slave Nirvana because they were more concerned with protecting their human property than belonging to the US.

After the war was over, they created an alternative reality called the Lost Cause which tried to downplay the role that slavery had in the Confederacy

 

[rightwinger]

We need to ask......What have these men done to deserve such an honor?

AP HIll, Braxton Bragg, George Pickett, John Bell Hood......why should they be honored?

Defending ones sacred lands and homes from an invasion sent by a Tyrant is more honorable than invading your neighbor because a Tyrant said so.

Defending the right to keep other human beings as slaves is the ultimate tyranny

The Confederacy had slavery for 4 years.
The USA had slavery for 89 years.

Sounds like a valid point......

But we are talking about the same assholes in the South owning slaves in both cases

Northern schools teach you that?

It’s a fact
Same assholes forced slavery into the United States, forced slavery into new territories and created a slave Confederacy

So you are OK with the USA having slavery but not the Confederacy. Double standards.

Like I said, it was the same group of southerners forcing slavery on the rest of the country.

Slavery was a southern institution

They had slavery in the North for 200 years dating back to the Colonial period, and they still had slavery in the North after the Civil War was over, and all the Confederate slaves were free. But Yankees dont teach true history.

Cut the nonsense

<sob> But, but....the North had slaves too!

There was minimal slavery in northern states, mostly border states where the stench of slavery had leached over.

There were 500,000 slaves in the North at the start of the Civil War. If that is minimal to you than you are even more of a racist Dim than I thought.

The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the South. In did not free slaves in the North. Look it up. There were slaves serving the in New Jersey Governors mansion throughout the Civil War.

In fact, technically the slaves in the North were not freed until 1867. So do not get on a high horse about how great the North was. In many ways they were just as much involved in the slave trade as the South.

Good point about New Jersey, they still had slavery when the Civil War ended. And they first voted NO to the 13th Amendment to free the slaves. NJ did not free their slaves until forced to with the ratification of the 13th Amendment.
But slavery in NJ is covered up.

NJ had no slaves in 1860

1860 United States census - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Didn't need slaves; they had women and children in sweat shops working under even worse conditions than slaves. They had the Irish.

Very true

The North had immigrant labor that was white. Those immigrants had the right to move where they wanted and have children that were not property.
To equate them with black slaves who had no legal status above that of an animal is abhorrent

 

[9thIDdoc]

We need to ask......What have these men done to deserve such an honor?

AP HIll, Braxton Bragg, George Pickett, John Bell Hood......why should they be honored?

Trump opposes efforts to remove Confederate commanders' names from military bases

President Donald Trump said Wednesday he opposes any effort by the US military to rename the nearly one dozen major bases and installations that bear the names of Confederate military commanders.

www.cnn.com

They are American bases named after Americans by Americans. Why do you care what they are named? How is their name any of your business?

They are American bases, paid by taxpayers, honoring men who abandoned their country and took up arms against it.

I care because I would rather my tax dollars honor those who are more deserving.

Were you paying taxes when those bases were named and do you claim that you are more qualified to determine who is honored and who isn't? If so, list your qualifications. If not STFU.

I am paying taxes now, and my qualification is.....I vote.
Those bases were named to soothe the propaganda coming out of the Lost Cause movement which tried to legitimize the Confederacy. No reason to continue the charade.

Doesn't matter what or why they were named. They were named and if renaming them comes up for a vote I'll vote against.

 

[rightwinger]

We need to ask......What have these men done to deserve such an honor?

AP HIll, Braxton Bragg, George Pickett, John Bell Hood......why should they be honored?

Trump opposes efforts to remove Confederate commanders' names from military bases

President Donald Trump said Wednesday he opposes any effort by the US military to rename the nearly one dozen major bases and installations that bear the names of Confederate military commanders.

www.cnn.com

They are American bases named after Americans by Americans. Why do you care what they are named? How is their name any of your business?

They are American bases, paid by taxpayers, honoring men who abandoned their country and took up arms against it.

I care because I would rather my tax dollars honor those who are more deserving.

Were you paying taxes when those bases were named and do you claim that you are more qualified to determine who is honored and who isn't? If so, list your qualifications. If not STFU.

I am paying taxes now, and my qualification is.....I vote.
Those bases were named to soothe the propaganda coming out of the Lost Cause movement which tried to legitimize the Confederacy. No reason to continue the charade.

Doesn't matter what or why they were named. They were named and if renaming them comes up for a vote I'll vote against.

I’m sure you will
Most Americans won’t.

When Biden becomes President, those forts will receive honorable names

 

[9thIDdoc]

We need to ask......What have these men done to deserve such an honor?

AP HIll, Braxton Bragg, George Pickett, John Bell Hood......why should they be honored?

Defending ones sacred lands and homes from an invasion sent by a Tyrant is more honorable than invading your neighbor because a Tyrant said so.

Defending the right to keep other human beings as slaves is the ultimate tyranny

The Confederacy had slavery for 4 years.
The USA had slavery for 89 years.

Sounds like a valid point......

But we are talking about the same assholes in the South owning slaves in both cases

Northern schools teach you that?

It’s a fact
Same assholes forced slavery into the United States, forced slavery into new territories and created a slave Confederacy

So you are OK with the USA having slavery but not the Confederacy. Double standards.

Like I said, it was the same group of southerners forcing slavery on the rest of the country.

Slavery was a southern institution

They had slavery in the North for 200 years dating back to the Colonial period, and they still had slavery in the North after the Civil War was over, and all the Confederate slaves were free. But Yankees dont teach true history.

Cut the nonsense

<sob> But, but....the North had slaves too!

There was minimal slavery in northern states, mostly border states where the stench of slavery had leached over.

So you hate the Ancient Egyptian's, Greeks, and Roman's? They all practiced slavery. What about Native Americans, they too practiced slavery. Then surely you must hate the Dutch, English, Spanish, and Portuguese because all those nation's practiced slavery as well.

We don’t have any forts named after Ancient Egyptians, Greeks or Romans

But the basis of your argument to change the names was based on slavery in the antebellum South and these men fighting to defend their homeland from invasion by the federal government.

You keep dancing around the reason for forming the Confederacy........to ensure that slavery would exist in their nation forever. They wrote a Constitution to ensure it.

Defending their “homeland” was defending slavery

So? Abolishing it at that time would have been an economic disaster that would have bankrupted the South which meant a very bleak future including the widespread possibility of starvation for all including the very former slaves the North claimed it was trying to help. Many in the South thought the goal of the North was to impoverish the South rather than help the slave. The result was thousands of uneducated starving unemployed homeless blacks and whites together and seems to support that thought. Who wouldn't defend home and family against disaster?

The fun part was that Lincoln did not have the power or inclination to abolish slavery. He wanted to stop the spread into new territories.

Slavery would have eventually been phased out in the next 20 years with slave owners receiving some compensation for their lost “property”

But by leaving the union and attacking US property, the Confederacy brought the end of slavery in four years.

When it became cheaper and/or more efficient to use machinery than slaves for agriculture slavery would have ended without all the bloodshed caused by the North's occupation of a fort in a Southern harbor. Lincolns' election and his vow to end slavery (and ruin the South) resulted in the South lawfully leaving the union they had voluntarily joined. Rich Northern industrialists who feared having to pay more for cotton had far more to do with the start of the war than slavery. A little Northern patience and slavery would have ended naturally with a united nation instead of a bloodbath.

 

[9thIDdoc]

We need to ask......What have these men done to deserve such an honor?

AP HIll, Braxton Bragg, George Pickett, John Bell Hood......why should they be honored?

Trump opposes efforts to remove Confederate commanders' names from military bases

President Donald Trump said Wednesday he opposes any effort by the US military to rename the nearly one dozen major bases and installations that bear the names of Confederate military commanders.

www.cnn.com

They are American bases named after Americans by Americans. Why do you care what they are named? How is their name any of your business?

They are American bases, paid by taxpayers, honoring men who abandoned their country and took up arms against it.

I care because I would rather my tax dollars honor those who are more deserving.

Were you paying taxes when those bases were named and do you claim that you are more qualified to determine who is honored and who isn't? If so, list your qualifications. If not STFU.

I am paying taxes now, and my qualification is.....I vote.
Those bases were named to soothe the propaganda coming out of the Lost Cause movement which tried to legitimize the Confederacy. No reason to continue the charade.

Doesn't matter what or why they were named. They were named and if renaming them comes up for a vote I'll vote against.

I’m sure you will
Most Americans won’t.

When Biden becomes President, those forts will receive honorable names

If Biden should somehow become President (I don't believe he could win a fair election) I think we will probably be in disagreement on how Civil War II started.

 

[rightwinger]

We need to ask......What have these men done to deserve such an honor?

AP HIll, Braxton Bragg, George Pickett, John Bell Hood......why should they be honored?

Defending ones sacred lands and homes from an invasion sent by a Tyrant is more honorable than invading your neighbor because a Tyrant said so.

Defending the right to keep other human beings as slaves is the ultimate tyranny

The Confederacy had slavery for 4 years.
The USA had slavery for 89 years.

Sounds like a valid point......

But we are talking about the same assholes in the South owning slaves in both cases

Northern schools teach you that?

It’s a fact
Same assholes forced slavery into the United States, forced slavery into new territories and created a slave Confederacy

So you are OK with the USA having slavery but not the Confederacy. Double standards.

Like I said, it was the same group of southerners forcing slavery on the rest of the country.

Slavery was a southern institution

They had slavery in the North for 200 years dating back to the Colonial period, and they still had slavery in the North after the Civil War was over, and all the Confederate slaves were free. But Yankees dont teach true history.

Cut the nonsense

<sob> But, but....the North had slaves too!

There was minimal slavery in northern states, mostly border states where the stench of slavery had leached over.

So you hate the Ancient Egyptian's, Greeks, and Roman's? They all practiced slavery. What about Native Americans, they too practiced slavery. Then surely you must hate the Dutch, English, Spanish, and Portuguese because all those nation's practiced slavery as well.

We don’t have any forts named after Ancient Egyptians, Greeks or Romans

But the basis of your argument to change the names was based on slavery in the antebellum South and these men fighting to defend their homeland from invasion by the federal government.

You keep dancing around the reason for forming the Confederacy........to ensure that slavery would exist in their nation forever. They wrote a Constitution to ensure it.

Defending their “homeland” was defending slavery

So? Abolishing it at that time would have been an economic disaster that would have bankrupted the South which meant a very bleak future including the widespread possibility of starvation for all including the very former slaves the North claimed it was trying to help. Many in the South thought the goal of the North was to impoverish the South rather than help the slave. The result was thousands of uneducated starving unemployed homeless blacks and whites together and seems to support that thought. Who wouldn't defend home and family against disaster?

The fun part was that Lincoln did not have the power or inclination to abolish slavery. He wanted to stop the spread into new territories.

Slavery would have eventually been phased out in the next 20 years with slave owners receiving some compensation for their lost “property”

But by leaving the union and attacking US property, the Confederacy brought the end of slavery in four years.

When it became cheaper and/or more efficient to use machinery than slaves for agriculture slavery would have ended without all the bloodshed caused by the North's occupation of a fort in a Southern harbor. Lincolns' election and his vow to end slavery (and ruin the South) resulted in the South lawfully leaving the union they had voluntarily joined. Rich Northern industrialists who feared having to pay more for cotton had far more to do with the start of the war than slavery. A little Northern patience and slavery would have ended naturally with a united nation instead of a bloodbath.

They did not have machinery to pick cotton until the 1930s
The South loved their “peculiar institutions” so much that they kept blacks as second class citizens well into the 1960s. When their Jim Crow policies were threatened , they resorted to terrorism to enforce their rules

 

[Dr Grump]

If Biden should somehow become President (I don't believe he could win a fair election) I think we will probably be in disagreement on how Civil War II started.

You are so full of it. The only time the rhetoric changed about the civil war was at the turn of hte 20th century when the Daughters of the Confederacy decided to rewrite history. That and the fact you think Biden couldn't win a fair election, says a lot about you. None of it good. Also, the fact you say slavery would have ended anyway without the war, means jackshit, because as rightwinger pionted out, they more or less kept those laws until the 1960s anyway. The south were traitors to the Union. If the South had been successful, today it would be a third-world shithole.

 

[Markle]

We need to ask......What have these men done to deserve such an honor?

AP HIll, Braxton Bragg, George Pickett, John Bell Hood......why should they be honored?

Trump opposes efforts to remove Confederate commanders' names from military bases

President Donald Trump said Wednesday he opposes any effort by the US military to rename the nearly one dozen major bases and installations that bear the names of Confederate military commanders.

www.cnn.com

 

[Markle]

You are so full of it. The only time the rhetoric changed about the civil war was at the turn of hte 20th century when the Daughters of the Confederacy decided to rewrite history. That and the fact you think Biden couldn't win a fair election, says a lot about you. None of it good. Also, the fact you say slavery would have ended anyway without the war, means jackshit, because as rightwinger pionted out, they more or less kept those laws until the 1960s anyway. The south were traitors to the Union. If the South had been successful, today it would be a third-world shithole.

Here are a few tracks for your riding playlist. I have more on mine if you like.

 

[9thIDdoc]

What about the 12 US Presidents who were slave owners, shouldn't we tear down their monuments, and rename any town, or city, or street, or base, named after them? And some of them are on our money, shouldn't we take them off the money?

Did any of those 12 take up arms against our nation to ensure they could keep owning slaves?

The South took up arms to defend home family and slaves from foreign invaders. The North killed combatants women (who they often raped) children and slaves alike as well as burned homes and cities of blacks and whites alike. Now they want to claim the moral high ground. Good luck with that.

They left the union and created their Slave Nirvana because they were more concerned with protecting their human property than belonging to the US.

After the war was over, they created an alternative reality called the Lost Cause which tried to downplay the role that slavery had in the Confederacy

They left the Union to protect themselves and their human property from Northern abuse. They were unsuccessful on both counts but they gave it a good shot. If the South was always part of the American Union as you claim then those forts were named for American heroes for the same reason you consider Lincoln an American president.
Before during and after the war Northerners invented the idea that they were all about high moral principles when they were actually bad guys conned by rich greedy leaders into doing evil things for their gain.

 

[9thIDdoc]

You are so full of it. The only time the rhetoric changed about the civil war was at the turn of hte 20th century when the Daughters of the Confederacy decided to rewrite history. That and the fact you think Biden couldn't win a fair election, says a lot about you. None of it good. Also, the fact you say slavery would have ended anyway without the war, means jackshit, because as rightwinger pionted out, they more or less kept those laws until the 1960s anyway. The south were traitors to the Union. If the South had been successful, today it would be a third-world shithole.

The fact you think Biden could win a fair election says a lot about you. You forgot about reconstruction. After the war the South was tightly controlled by the North and their pet carpetbaggers. If they didn't like existing laws they would have changed them. I take it as fact that the South is now no more prejudiced than other parts of the country on average and that includes people of all races. Seems to me that race riots occur far more often in other parts of the country. Aren't Chicago Detroit in the North Seattle and LA in the West and DC in the East? The Confederate States were not part of your precious union so just how could they be a traitor to it?
Shithole? What, like so much of Detroit LA DC NYC and SF? I thought the South was supposed to have lost. What's their excuse?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

We need to ask......What have these men done to deserve such an honor?

AP HIll, Braxton Bragg, George Pickett, John Bell Hood......why should they be honored?

Defending ones sacred lands and homes from an invasion sent by a Tyrant is more honorable than invading your neighbor because a Tyrant said so.

Defending the right to keep other human beings as slaves is the ultimate tyranny

The Confederacy had slavery for 4 years.
The USA had slavery for 89 years.

Sounds like a valid point......

But we are talking about the same assholes in the South owning slaves in both cases

Northern schools teach you that?

It’s a fact
Same assholes forced slavery into the United States, forced slavery into new territories and created a slave Confederacy

So you are OK with the USA having slavery but not the Confederacy. Double standards.

Like I said, it was the same group of southerners forcing slavery on the rest of the country.

Slavery was a southern institution

They had slavery in the North for 200 years dating back to the Colonial period, and they still had slavery in the North after the Civil War was over, and all the Confederate slaves were free. But Yankees dont teach true history.

Cut the nonsense

<sob> But, but....the North had slaves too!

There was minimal slavery in northern states, mostly border states where the stench of slavery had leached over.

So you hate the Ancient Egyptian's, Greeks, and Roman's? They all practiced slavery. What about Native Americans, they too practiced slavery. Then surely you must hate the Dutch, English, Spanish, and Portuguese because all those nation's practiced slavery as well.

We don’t have any forts named after Ancient Egyptians, Greeks or Romans

But the basis of your argument to change the names was based on slavery in the antebellum South and these men fighting to defend their homeland from invasion by the federal government.

You keep dancing around the reason for forming the Confederacy........to ensure that slavery would exist in their nation forever. They wrote a Constitution to ensure it.

Defending their “homeland” was defending slavery

So? Abolishing it at that time would have been an economic disaster that would have bankrupted the South which meant a very bleak future including the widespread possibility of starvation for all including the very former slaves the North claimed it was trying to help. Many in the South thought the goal of the North was to impoverish the South rather than help the slave. The result was thousands of uneducated starving unemployed homeless blacks and whites together and seems to support that thought. Who wouldn't defend home and family against disaster?

Or, we can look at another model. Pay a fair wage and give fair treatment. Imagine that. There is a huge difference between a Slave and an indentured servant.

 

[Dr Grump]

You are so full of it. The only time the rhetoric changed about the civil war was at the turn of hte 20th century when the Daughters of the Confederacy decided to rewrite history. That and the fact you think Biden couldn't win a fair election, says a lot about you. None of it good. Also, the fact you say slavery would have ended anyway without the war, means jackshit, because as rightwinger pionted out, they more or less kept those laws until the 1960s anyway. The south were traitors to the Union. If the South had been successful, today it would be a third-world shithole.

Here are a few tracks for your riding playlist. I have more on mine if you like.

Oh, that just changed my mind about everything I now believe in...<rolls eyes>...some hayseeds singing songs about the Southland...

 

[Dr Grump]

They left the Union to protect themselves and their human property from Northern abuse. They were unsuccessful on both counts but they gave it a good shot. If the South was always part of the American Union as you claim then those forts were named for American heroes for the same reason you consider Lincoln an American president.
Before during and after the war Northerners invented the idea that they were all about high moral principles when they were actually bad guys conned by rich greedy leaders into doing evil things for their gain.

ha! Protect their human property? From what? Being hanged if they ran away? LOL...**** me..

 

[Dr Grump]

The fact you think Biden could win a fair election says a lot about you. You forgot about reconstruction. After the war the South was tightly controlled by the North and their pet carpetbaggers. If they didn't like existing laws they would have changed them. I take it as fact that the South is now no more prejudiced than other parts of the country on average and that includes people of all races. Seems to me that race riots occur far more often in other parts of the country. Aren't Chicago Detroit in the North Seattle and LA in the West and DC in the East? The Confederate States were not part of your precious union so just how could they be a traitor to it?
Shithole? What, like so much of Detroit LA DC NYC and SF? I thought the South was supposed to have lost. What's their excuse?

All those cities are doing okay. The only real shithole I would argue is Detroit. You know, there is more to Chicago than the South side? More to LA than south central.....San Francisco is hardly a shithole. More like a city of enlightenment if anything. What do you have? Houston? Atlanta? Montgomery? Austin? New Orleans? Charlottesville???? Ha!

 

[otto105]

I believe they are part of history. Whether we like it or not, it is part of our heritage. That would like like Germany renaming Auschwitz and the other Concentration camps. It is part of their history. We may not agree to what happened there. But nonetheless...

Renaming a military base is not the same as remembering a death camp from the Holocaust. We remember Auschwitz so that humanity doesn't repeat it.

Naming a military base after a general in the confederacy is to honor something.