Time to fix the prisons

[pegwinn]

As a realist I already know that this will influence/change nothing at all. But if someone sees it, and uses a piece of it in some action then maybe we will step forward. Oh yeah, I am your basic undereducated middle aged white guy that probably doesn't get it. I am neither republican nor democrat (republicrat). I don't follow any particular party on the grounds that if I aint perfect, they sure as hell caint be. LOL

This particular rant is on Crime and Punishment in the USA. It is intended to apply at the federal level. I can't imagine trying to straighten out fifty criminal codes.

We need to empty the prisons first. The only guys/gals I am interested in locking up are the violent. That's right, if you didn't actually commit a violent crime, you are outta there!!!! Oh yeah, if the results of your crime had the same effect as a violent crime, then you are not outta there, sorry. Case in point; You stole 100 grand from a pension fund. Granny Smith, who depended on the fund for income, died from malnutrition when the fund stopped paying out. Stealing the 100 grand had the direct effect of killing Granny. Ergo, you are still incarcerated.

In order to be released, all you need to do is repay your "debt" to society. Since we are emptying the prisons, you will be subjected to an objective formula. The dollar value of your crime times 1.5. So if you stole ten bux, the majic number is now 15. Basically you are paying restitution on what you stole plus half again in penalty money. Then add the court costs. You are outta there. There would instantly be a whole new industry. Bail Bondsmen would pay your society debt to the court (who disburses the restitution to the victim). This clears the cells.

In the future, those who cant pay up immediately go to work for the Government at hard labor for minimum wage. Picture this:

The defendant will rise. Having been found guilty of interstate commerce fraud valued at 7000.00 you are ordered to pay 10500.00 restitution to the court for disbursement to your victims plus court costs. If you cannot immediately pay, the court will disburse funds in restitution and assume the primary role for your payment. In this event you will serve at hard labor in the rock quarry at the federal work facility. You will receive the federal minimum wage, minus appropriate room, board, and security fees.

If our boy above nets 6.00 US per hour times 12 hours per day: It will take about 145 work days for him to pay his debt to society. He lives in a bay type barracks and does nasty work for half of every day. The gov could outsource his labor and make two killings. To those who would say this is nothing more than slavery, I offer two answers.

1. Yup, and yer point is............ or
2. We can give him the option of being incarcerated with the violent felons, no work there.

Now the guys left in prison need to be punished. I really believe that no less than 75 percent of any prison sentence should be brutish, nasty, ugly, vengeance. Why? Cuz obviously they got the "do unto others" part down. Now we do unto them.
Ask me if I care about inmate on inmate violence? Nope, remember, these are the violent.
Ask me if I care about them dying in prison. Nope. Odds are they either killed, or contributed to someone's violent suffering. So if one wishes to make another his bitch, so what?
BTW, I believe in a death penalty enacted if your crime caused a death. So, if we put the federal death row in it's own place, the actual prison can focus on punishment of those who didn't kill.

Lastly, the sentence is always a rock bottom minimum of twenty-five years. I have two eminently logical reasons for this. First, is that if you commit a crime of violence at the age of 20, you will be 45 upon release. A forty-five year old is physically and mentally less likely to commit another act of violence. He will pose less of a physical danger as he is far past his prime. Secondly, a minimum 25 year sentence for violence will bring back the original power in the phrase "making a federal case out of it".

Simple incarceration, no matter how violent, hasn't worked. It creates a smarter, more able killer. By removing the non-violent we tell them and society that as long as they make good on the crime we will take them back. By moving the violent to their own institution we tell them that if they want to behave like animals, so-be-it, welcome to the zoo. At 25 years minimum we are slapping some with overkill. But it will send a message. Most violent offenders are not federal offenders so the prison population funded via the IRS will diminish.

 

[Big D]

Without blacks and hispanics, America could close over 80% of all it's prisons. In New York blacks and hispanics are 30% of the population, but they are 85% of the prison population.
In Washington D.C blacks are 93% of the prison population alone.

Find out who's in prison in your state:
http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/prisons/atlas.html

 

[Hobbit]

We need to shorten the senteces and make them harsher. Instead of having a person spend 25 years-life in a standard prison, make it 5-10 years, only it seems like 25-life. Have people spend their sentences moving back and forth from tough, physical labor to a bare, boring, isolated cell. Also, bring back the "no talking" rule. That gives them more time to think about what they did.

Also, you could use George Carlin's idea of how to get rid of the 4 groups that are the most dangerous.

Violent Criminals: Move everyone out of Kansas at the government's expense. Put up a 10 story electric fence. Dump tons of weapons and ammo down there. Put it on cable and sell advertising space.

Sex Criminals: This is only "true" sex offenders, a.k.a. people who impose their sex on others (rapists, molesters, etc.). Fence off Wyoming and repeat the above (tv), minus the guns and ammo.

Drug Offenders: Everyone gets 15 chances to clean up. Colorado, so they have the Coors brewery. Dump all the drugs seized in raids in there. Fence off as above and put on cable, as above.

Maniacs and Crazy people: Only harmful ones (and gross ones). Wierd ones get their own radio show. Fence off Utah. Put it on TV, just like above.

All four are in adjacent states. Put gates in them every 50 miles. Open them 10 inches for 7 seconds a month...on Pay Per View.

Now they're all taken care of...and you have more federal revenue than you know what to do with, so you lower taxes.

 

[Merlin1047]

"In order to be released, all you need to do is repay your "debt" to society. Since we are emptying the prisons, you will be subjected to an objective formula. The dollar value of your crime times 1.5."

I'll give you credit for innovation, but unfortunately I see a rather large hole in your theory.

Let's say that I'm engaged in a non-violent criminal enterprise. Do you think that I'll get caught the first time? How about the second time? Third? The fact is, if I'm smart and keep things low key, I might never get caught. Let's assume (just so we can have some numbers to work with) that I realize ten thousand dollars from each illegal activity and now let's say that eventually I get nailed. Unless the police can find the proceeds from my previous transactions, they can only charge me with the crime for which they have evidence. Now if I have committed that crime ten times before I was caught, I made 100,000 bucks. Your system will cost me $15,000 and I'm back on the street. Hmmm - that's pretty low overhead and certainly does not serve to deter me from future activity.

Another problem with a system such as you suggest is that it would punish the poor disproportionately. Rich, white collar criminals would actually be encouraged to commit fraud or embezzlement because chances of getting caught are slim and if you are caught, well - it's only money.

Here's my theory. It's based on the behavior of children. Young children are notoriously cruel and conscienceless. That's because ethics, morals and good judgement are not things one inherits congenitally from parental DNA. These things have to be learned. You can talk to children till you're blue in the face and they will do whatever the hell pleases them. Children learn that some things are not acceptable because of the punishment associated with the act. Eventually they learn WHY there is punishment for some things and they begin to develop a conscience. Criminals are much like children. They have no conscience, morals or ethics. They respond only to the fear of punishment. I believe that the best thing we can do to reform our prisons is to get back to basics and make prisone VERY unpleasant places.

Perhaps a two-tiered prison system might be in order. Level one would be facilites where punishment is the only objective. There would be no languishing about in their cells. Work their butts off all day, every day. No cable TV, no internet, no law libraries, no pumping iron in the yard. That would be the punishment phase. Then transfer the inmate to level two where he / she is still incarcerated, but the emphasis is on education, job training and counselling. Maybe that might help, but to tell the truth, I'm not all that optimistic.

 

[mattskramer]

One way to free up some jail space is to legalize "victimless crimes" - also called "crimes of consent". With the legalization of drugs, gamboling, and prostitution, many supposed criminals can be released.

 

[insein]

Originally posted by Hobbit
We need to shorten the senteces and make them harsher. Instead of having a person spend 25 years-life in a standard prison, make it 5-10 years, only it seems like 25-life. Have people spend their sentences moving back and forth from tough, physical labor to a bare, boring, isolated cell. Also, bring back the "no talking" rule. That gives them more time to think about what they did.

Also, you could use George Carlin's idea of how to get rid of the 4 groups that are the most dangerous.

Violent Criminals: Move everyone out of Kansas at the government's expense. Put up a 10 story electric fence. Dump tons of weapons and ammo down there. Put it on cable and sell advertising space.

Sex Criminals: This is only "true" sex offenders, a.k.a. people who impose their sex on others (rapists, molesters, etc.). Fence off Wyoming and repeat the above (tv), minus the guns and ammo.

Drug Offenders: Everyone gets 15 chances to clean up. Colorado, so they have the Coors brewery. Dump all the drugs seized in raids in there. Fence off as above and put on cable, as above.

Maniacs and Crazy people: Only harmful ones (and gross ones). Wierd ones get their own radio show. Fence off Utah. Put it on TV, just like above.

All four are in adjacent states. Put gates in them every 50 miles. Open them 10 inches for 7 seconds a month...on Pay Per View.

Now they're all taken care of...and you have more federal revenue than you know what to do with, so you lower taxes.

Sounds alittle like the Running man. You know without the outsiders hunting them down.

 

[pegwinn]

Originally posted by Merlin1047
"In order to be released, all you need to do is repay your "debt" to society. Since we are emptying the prisons, you will be subjected to an objective formula. The dollar value of your crime times 1.5."

I'll give you credit for innovation, but unfortunately I see a rather large hole in your theory.

Let's say that I'm engaged in a non-violent criminal enterprise. Do you think that I'll get caught the first time? How about the second time? Third? The fact is, if I'm smart and keep things low key, I might never get caught. Let's assume (just so we can have some numbers to work with) that I realize ten thousand dollars from each illegal activity and now let's say that eventually I get nailed. Unless the police can find the proceeds from my previous transactions, they can only charge me with the crime for which they have evidence. Now if I have committed that crime ten times before I was caught, I made 100,000 bucks. Your system will cost me $15,000 and I'm back on the street. Hmmm - that's pretty low overhead and certainly does not serve to deter me from future activity.

Great points. I almost asked, "How about the non-violent offender forfeights all assets" and they are distributed out as the restitution portion of atonement? Then I thought that there may be a clause in our constitution forbidding that. The second phase of "atonement" is to cover the $15000 you mentioned. Instead of the option of immediate payment, you must perform hard labor at minimum wage. Truthfully, until we get a rock steady perfect truth machine, I am not too worried about non-violent offences. I support the decriminalization of prostitution, drugs, etc. I apprectiate the time you took to read and write and will continue to consider the points made. Thanks.

 

[pegwinn]

Originally posted by mattskramer
One way to free up some jail space is to legalize "victimless crimes" - also called "crimes of consent". With the legalization of drugs, gamboling, and prostitution, many supposed criminals can be released.

Excellent point. We ought to simply tax them, and regulate them out of business. If they cannot comply with the legal version, then the 1.5 rule will apply and they can break big rocks into gravel for minimum wage.

 

[William Joyce]

Most of the prison population is black and Hispanic, as Big correctly notes. Also, most of them are there for drug crimes. This is by design. White conservatives want potentially violent minorities off the streets, but don't want to be accused of "racism." So, drugs does the trick. They know they can count on minorities to go for the easy money. And they know how easy it is for cops to bust on this. Which they do.

It's a nice little system. My only complaint is that it costs white taxpayers a lot. The cheaper solution would be to put the blacks back on a boat to Africa and the Hispanics back on buses to Mexico.

 

[Big D]

pegwin, I see your from Texas,

Texas black and hispanic population: 43%

Texas black and hispanic prison population: 69%
http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/prisons/data_TX_race.html

 

[Hobbit]

Originally posted by mattskramer
One way to free up some jail space is to legalize "victimless crimes" - also called "crimes of consent". With the legalization of drugs, gamboling, and prostitution, many supposed criminals can be released.

Many of these activities have been outlawed in certain districts (in Arkansas, all three of the above are illegal, and the majority of counties are dry) because, legal or not, they attract crime. Drugs are expensive and drive people to commit crimes to keep up the habit. They also cause a lack of judgement, causing people to be more likely to commit a crime. Prostitution leads to a) the spread of VD's and b) the dehumanization of the women in that industry, often leading to violence against them. It's also a very unsavory and unsightly thing to have around in a conservative region. Gambling attracts organized crime. Case in point: When Gov. Rockafeller closed down the Hot Springs, AR casinos, all major crime families uprooted and left. Now, the only organized crime left is selling weed to tourists.

The truth is that victimless crimes...aren't victimless.

 

[pegwinn]

Originally posted by mattskramer
One way to free up some jail space is to legalize "victimless crimes" - also called "crimes of consent". With the legalization of drugs, gamboling, and prostitution, many supposed criminals can be released.

Originally posted by Hobbit
Many of these activities have been outlawed in certain districts (in Arkansas, all three of the above are illegal, and the majority of counties are dry) because, legal or not, they attract crime. Drugs are expensive and drive people to commit crimes to keep up the habit. They also cause a lack of judgement, causing people to be more likely to commit a crime. Prostitution leads to a) the spread of VD's and b) the dehumanization of the women in that industry, often leading to violence against them. It's also a very unsavory and unsightly thing to have around in a conservative region. Gambling attracts organized crime. Case in point: When Gov. Rockafeller closed down the Hot Springs, AR casinos, all major crime families uprooted and left. Now, the only organized crime left is selling weed to tourists.

The truth is that victimless crimes...aren't victimless.

Both guys are making good sense. I personally lean toward legalization and regulation as industry. My best example is alcohol in the 1920's and the fun that arose during and after. If drugs were freely available via a legal drug trade, the price would drop. Of course Big Brother would collect a bit from each transaction. Any crimes committed would fall under the provision of the original post. IF violence is involved then it's retribution time. As to prostitution, theres a reason its the worlds oldest profession. Because there will always be women who are willing to sell themselves. IF a person wishes to, they should be allowed to, as long as there is no harm to others. Legalized prostitution would be regulated to the point that streetwalkers would most likely be forced indoors into "reputible" houses. And, as in the several asian markets they would be required to show proof of good health. As a legal occupation, a prostitute would have recourse against violent customers. Again, see the original post on how to deal with violent convicts. I agree that victimless crimes may not be. But, I think that the bare fact something is illegal creates a market where maybe there wouldn't be much of one.

 

[mattskramer]

Originally posted by Hobbit
Many of these activities have been outlawed in certain districts (in Arkansas, all three of the above are illegal, and the majority of counties are dry) because, legal or not, they attract crime. Drugs are expensive and drive people to commit crimes to keep up the habit. They also cause a lack of judgement, causing people to be more likely to commit a crime. Prostitution leads to a) the spread of VD's and b) the dehumanization of the women in that industry, often leading to violence against them. It's also a very unsavory and unsightly thing to have around in a conservative region. Gambling attracts organized crime. Case in point: When Gov. Rockafeller closed down the Hot Springs, AR casinos, all major crime families uprooted and left. Now, the only organized crime left is selling weed to tourists.

The truth is that victimless crimes...aren't victimless.

"Drugs are expensive and drive people to commit crimes to keep up the habit."

Sports cars are expensive and drive people to commit crimes to keep up the habit. Living a rich lifestyle is expensive and drives people to commit crimes to keep up the habit. Drugs are expensive because they are illegal and difficulty (and risky) to acquire. Legalize it and the price will fall.

"They also cause a lack of judgment, causing people to be more likely to commit a crime."

One can make the same argument about Alcohol. I make poor judgments during the day if I don't get enough sleep, yet I have a habit of going to bed late. When I take sleeping pills, I don't feel "normal" the next morning. If I'm angry over an argument with someone, it often results in a lack of concentration and judgment.

"Prostitution leads to a) the spread of VD's and b) the dehumanization of the women in that industry, often leading to violence against them. It's also a very unsavory and unsightly thing to have around in a conservative region."

Many activities lead to diseases (failure to get immunized and smoking to name a couple). Some people seem not to be able to control their sex drive (prostitution or no prostitution). Promiscuity is dangerous and spreads VD in and of itself.

Ultimately people make choices and people should be held accountable for the consequences for the consequences. I bought a bar of soap a few weeks ago. I left it on the bathroom floor. Late at night I went to the bathroom and slipped on the soap, bruising my hip. We better outlaw soap unless it attached to a rope.

Prostitution is only dehumanizing to a woman if the thinks that it is. Some women, even within the profession, don't consider it "dehumanizing". They are humans and consider themselves to be so. Those who consider it to be dehumanizing don't have to participate. They don't have to work as prostitutes. Shucks, they don't even have to support such businesses that engage in or support such filth.

If you thing that such activity is unsavory, boycott it and encourage others to do the same. Ostracize prostitutes. Tall fences make good neighbors. Have nothing to do with the industry or activity that you don't like. Perhaps some people find churches and preachers to be unsavory. They find preacher to be nothing but arrogant "Elmer Gantry" (Charlatans that that are only in the career to make themselves appear self righteous while selling dreams and snake oil).

"Gambling attracts organized crime."

In a general sense, everything is a gamble. Farmers plant seeds and "spin the wheel" hoping that the ran falls in the right places and in the right amount. Yet my grandfather's farm attracted crime. They were robbed twice and poachers regularly took fruit from their trees.

The bottom line is that there are such things as "victimless crimes". He who chooses by buy illegal drugs, for perceived medical benefits or for any reason is merely victimizing himself. Is "Jack Daniel's" guilty of someone drinks his product and drives over someone? No. The drunk driver was responsible for drinking and driving. Likewise, under prostitution, he who takes the risk of having sex with any new acquaintance (a prostitute or not) accepts the risk of getting into some type of trouble. (Just ask the male character from "Fatal Attraction"). The same applies to gamboling. Though legalized gamboling exists in some places (Particularly in Las Vegas) and it is carefully watched. Still, with practically any business, crime may develop.

 

[Hobbit]

First off, you cannot justify bad behavior (e.g. drugs) by pointing out other bad behavior (e.g. drunkenness and stealing sports cars). Let's also not forget that drugs aren't usually targetted at the rich and are highly addictive, unlike sports cars. Alcohol, I think, should be regulated more and some people shouldn't be allowed to drink it. Oh well, you can't win 'em all. There have also been many deaths that resulted from drug induced hallucanations, another thing you can't also pin on alcohol and sports cars, bearing in mind that most of the people who die as a result of alcohol and sports cars die because either they or the person who killed them was breaking the law at the time.

Prostitution is something I don't want in my town, and most people around here agree with me. You want it in your town? Fine, go ahead, but don't say I have to legalize it and put up with it, simply because you see it as a "victimless" crime.

"Gambling attracts organized crime."

In a general sense, everything is a gamble. Farmers plant seeds and "spin the wheel" hoping that the ran falls in the right places and in the right amount. Yet my grandfather's farm attracted crime. They were robbed twice and poachers regularly took fruit from their trees.

This is simply an invalid comparison used by people who want to legalize gambling. Now, by gambling, I mean organized betting on games of chance, a.k.a. Casino type gambling. The fact of the matter is that casino gambling is designed around causing those who participate to lose. That's how they make money. Sure, everything commerce attracts thieves, but this type of gambling attracts, say it with me now, organized crime, and on a much larger scale than poachers stealing crops. You wanna know what kind of stuff happened when there were casinos in Arkansas? People would be foolish and gamble away their savings in the casinos, then they'd take out loans from loan sharks, sure that they were just about to "win it big." Then they'd lose it all and end up working as a money-launderer or hitman for the mob in order to pay off the debt. As soon as the casinos disappeared, the mob left and the crime rate plummetted, mainly in the violent crime area. That's why the a bill a few years ago that would have brought casinos back to Arkansas got smacked into the ground when it went to the public vote. There, I have relevant, imperical data that shows a trend between the presence of the casinos and the presence of organized crime, and since the mob left shortly after the casinos did, I've got pretty strong evidence concerning what caused what.

 

[Big D]

Insein, I see your from the state of Pennsylvania.

Pennsylvania black and hispanics population: 13%

Pennsylvania black and hispanics prison population: 66%
http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/prisons/data_PA_race.html

 

[insein]

Originally posted by Big D
Insein, I see your from the state of Pennsylvania.

Pennsylvania black and hispanics population: 13%

Pennsylvania black and hispanics prison population: 66%
http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/prisons/data_PA_race.html

And...Im not a racist but im not dumb.

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by insein
And...Im not a racist but im not dumb.

Does that mean you know what the the problem is but you don't want to say anything, because you don't want to be called names?

Is'nt that kind of dumb?

 

[insein]

Originally posted by Big D
Does that mean you know what the the problem is but you don't want to say anything, because you don't want to be called names?

Is'nt that kind of dumb?

See the other thread.

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by insein
See the other thread.

Why would democrats want blacks in prison, they cannot vote once they are felons?

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

They don't vote anyway...