This is why there won't be peace

[Hollie]

So as long as we appease Islamic terrorists, and do as we're told, we will be free from attacks?

No. All we had to do, is be fair to both sides. Treat both sides equally and 9/11 might not have happened.

Or do you have issues being fair to others?

I don't have a problem supporting Israel, I just don't think we should do it unconditionally.

You need to get past such naiveté.

We need to understand the islamic revulsion of Israel (and manipulative references to "The Plight of The Poor, Oppressed Palestinians"™ in terms of Islamic ideology. It is clear that Moslems have not forgotten that, through the imperialistic holy war of jihad, they were once masters of a rather sizeable portion of the civilized world.

It’s also important to understand that the use by arabs of the so-called “palestinians” is about something less temporal and more profound. It's about the Islamic legal concept of waqf. That concept is what drives ummah'istan thus allowing the "Palestinians" to be used as convenient cannon-fodder in the vilification (and hoped-for destruction) of Israel.

In Arabic, waqf can literally mean prevention, restraint, or retention. In Islamism, a waqf is any property that has been given for the benefit of Moslems, in perpetuity, and to please God. It is essentially making land, or other material, God's property, not to be taken back by anyone. It is an important part of shariah law, and has several purposes. In the context of "Palestine", we are concerned with its ramifications in connection with land.

In Islam, the war of jihad is holy (although it is not seen as war by Muslims) because it is for the purpose of expanding God's domain on Earth. It is commanded of the faithful, and it is an honor as well as a duty. According to the shariah, territories which are gained through jihad become waqf, and cannot thereafter be given up. They become, literally, an inseverable part of God's dominion, for the sole welfare of the ummah (the Moslem community, "Ummah'istan' is my term). If territories acquired by Islam are taken by conquering infidels, they must be retaken in jihad—today, tomorrow, sooner or later. It is a religious obligation. This is because what belongs to God cannot be taken from those who are on Earth to serve Him. For this reason, Israel will never have peace with Muslims so long as Islam remains in its current, unreformed state. When Khalifah Omar took Jerusalem in 638 CE, he made Israel an Islamic waqf. For that matter, in their charter, Hamas demonstrates how their right to destroy Israel is simply an obligation to God through the principle of waqf:

• Israel will rise and will remain erect until eliminated by Islam... [Introduction]

• Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. [Article 11]

• …the liberation of Palestine is an individual duty binding on all Muslims everywhere. [Article 13]

• There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. [Article 13]

• In order to face the theft of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. [Article 15]

• When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. [Article 15]

 

[pbel]

So as long as we appease Islamic terrorists, and do as we're told, we will be free from attacks?

No. All we had to do, is be fair to both sides. Treat both sides equally and 9/11 might not have happened.

Or do you have issues being fair to others?

I don't have a problem supporting Israel, I just don't think we should do it unconditionally.

You need to get past such naiveté.

We need to understand the islamic revulsion of Israel (and manipulative references to "The Plight of The Poor, Oppressed Palestinians"™ in terms of Islamic ideology. It is clear that Moslems have not forgotten that, through the imperialistic holy war of jihad, they were once masters of a rather sizeable portion of the civilized world.

It’s also important to understand that the use by arabs of the so-called “palestinians” is about something less temporal and more profound. It's about the Islamic legal concept of waqf. That concept is what drives ummah'istan thus allowing the "Palestinians" to be used as convenient cannon-fodder in the vilification (and hoped-for destruction) of Israel.

In Arabic, waqf can literally mean prevention, restraint, or retention. In Islamism, a waqf is any property that has been given for the benefit of Moslems, in perpetuity, and to please God. It is essentially making land, or other material, God's property, not to be taken back by anyone. It is an important part of shariah law, and has several purposes. In the context of "Palestine", we are concerned with its ramifications in connection with land.

In Islam, the war of jihad is holy (although it is not seen as war by Muslims) because it is for the purpose of expanding God's domain on Earth. It is commanded of the faithful, and it is an honor as well as a duty. According to the shariah, territories which are gained through jihad become waqf, and cannot thereafter be given up. They become, literally, an inseverable part of God's dominion, for the sole welfare of the ummah (the Moslem community, "Ummah'istan' is my term). If territories acquired by Islam are taken by conquering infidels, they must be retaken in jihad—today, tomorrow, sooner or later. It is a religious obligation. This is because what belongs to God cannot be taken from those who are on Earth to serve Him. For this reason, Israel will never have peace with Muslims so long as Islam remains in its current, unreformed state. When Khalifah Omar took Jerusalem in 638 CE, he made Israel an Islamic waqf. For that matter, in their charter, Hamas demonstrates how their right to destroy Israel is simply an obligation to God through the principle of waqf:

• Israel will rise and will remain erect until eliminated by Islam... [Introduction]

• Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. [Article 11]

• …the liberation of Palestine is an individual duty binding on all Muslims everywhere. [Article 13]

• There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. [Article 13]

• In order to face the theft of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. [Article 15]

• When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. [Article 15]

The only way for Israel to be accepted by Islam is if they become part of the fabric of the ME and become a positive influence rather than the Imperialistic oppression it now practices.

 

[Hollie]

No. All we had to do, is be fair to both sides. Treat both sides equally and 9/11 might not have happened.

Or do you have issues being fair to others?

I don't have a problem supporting Israel, I just don't think we should do it unconditionally.

You need to get past such naiveté.

We need to understand the islamic revulsion of Israel (and manipulative references to "The Plight of The Poor, Oppressed Palestinians"™ in terms of Islamic ideology. It is clear that Moslems have not forgotten that, through the imperialistic holy war of jihad, they were once masters of a rather sizeable portion of the civilized world.

It’s also important to understand that the use by arabs of the so-called “palestinians” is about something less temporal and more profound. It's about the Islamic legal concept of waqf. That concept is what drives ummah'istan thus allowing the "Palestinians" to be used as convenient cannon-fodder in the vilification (and hoped-for destruction) of Israel.

In Arabic, waqf can literally mean prevention, restraint, or retention. In Islamism, a waqf is any property that has been given for the benefit of Moslems, in perpetuity, and to please God. It is essentially making land, or other material, God's property, not to be taken back by anyone. It is an important part of shariah law, and has several purposes. In the context of "Palestine", we are concerned with its ramifications in connection with land.

In Islam, the war of jihad is holy (although it is not seen as war by Muslims) because it is for the purpose of expanding God's domain on Earth. It is commanded of the faithful, and it is an honor as well as a duty. According to the shariah, territories which are gained through jihad become waqf, and cannot thereafter be given up. They become, literally, an inseverable part of God's dominion, for the sole welfare of the ummah (the Moslem community, "Ummah'istan' is my term). If territories acquired by Islam are taken by conquering infidels, they must be retaken in jihad—today, tomorrow, sooner or later. It is a religious obligation. This is because what belongs to God cannot be taken from those who are on Earth to serve Him. For this reason, Israel will never have peace with Muslims so long as Islam remains in its current, unreformed state. When Khalifah Omar took Jerusalem in 638 CE, he made Israel an Islamic waqf. For that matter, in their charter, Hamas demonstrates how their right to destroy Israel is simply an obligation to God through the principle of waqf:

• Israel will rise and will remain erect until eliminated by Islam... [Introduction]

• Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. [Article 11]

• …the liberation of Palestine is an individual duty binding on all Muslims everywhere. [Article 13]

• There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. [Article 13]

• In order to face the theft of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. [Article 15]

• When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. [Article 15]

The only way for Israel to be accepted by Islam is if they become part of the fabric of the ME and become a positive influence rather than the Imperialistic oppression it now practices.

You somehow completely missed the ideological imperative that makes acceptance of a non-moslem entity in the Middle East an impossibility for the pious moslem.

 

[pbel]

You need to get past such naiveté.

We need to understand the islamic revulsion of Israel (and manipulative references to "The Plight of The Poor, Oppressed Palestinians"™ in terms of Islamic ideology. It is clear that Moslems have not forgotten that, through the imperialistic holy war of jihad, they were once masters of a rather sizeable portion of the civilized world.

It’s also important to understand that the use by arabs of the so-called “palestinians” is about something less temporal and more profound. It's about the Islamic legal concept of waqf. That concept is what drives ummah'istan thus allowing the "Palestinians" to be used as convenient cannon-fodder in the vilification (and hoped-for destruction) of Israel.

In Arabic, waqf can literally mean prevention, restraint, or retention. In Islamism, a waqf is any property that has been given for the benefit of Moslems, in perpetuity, and to please God. It is essentially making land, or other material, God's property, not to be taken back by anyone. It is an important part of shariah law, and has several purposes. In the context of "Palestine", we are concerned with its ramifications in connection with land.

In Islam, the war of jihad is holy (although it is not seen as war by Muslims) because it is for the purpose of expanding God's domain on Earth. It is commanded of the faithful, and it is an honor as well as a duty. According to the shariah, territories which are gained through jihad become waqf, and cannot thereafter be given up. They become, literally, an inseverable part of God's dominion, for the sole welfare of the ummah (the Moslem community, "Ummah'istan' is my term). If territories acquired by Islam are taken by conquering infidels, they must be retaken in jihad—today, tomorrow, sooner or later. It is a religious obligation. This is because what belongs to God cannot be taken from those who are on Earth to serve Him. For this reason, Israel will never have peace with Muslims so long as Islam remains in its current, unreformed state. When Khalifah Omar took Jerusalem in 638 CE, he made Israel an Islamic waqf. For that matter, in their charter, Hamas demonstrates how their right to destroy Israel is simply an obligation to God through the principle of waqf:

• Israel will rise and will remain erect until eliminated by Islam... [Introduction]

• Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. [Article 11]

• …the liberation of Palestine is an individual duty binding on all Muslims everywhere. [Article 13]

• There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. [Article 13]

• In order to face the theft of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. [Article 15]

• When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. [Article 15]

The only way for Israel to be accepted by Islam is if they become part of the fabric of the ME and become a positive influence rather than the Imperialistic oppression it now practices.

You somehow completely missed the ideological imperative that makes acceptance of a non-moslem entity in the Middle East an impossibility for the pious moslem.

Actually, you missed the point that oppression begets resistance. Keep stealing land with further Settlements...

 

[Hollie]

The only way for Israel to be accepted by Islam is if they become part of the fabric of the ME and become a positive influence rather than the Imperialistic oppression it now practices.

You somehow completely missed the ideological imperative that makes acceptance of a non-moslem entity in the Middle East an impossibility for the pious moslem.

Actually, you missed the point that oppression begets resistance. Keep stealing land with further Settlements...

In your hope to avoid addressing a core element of islamist ideology, you didn't addres the fact that moslems are oppressed by islamist ideology.

If you fail to understand the islamist concept of waqf, you're not understanding that slogans alluding to Israeli "oppression" are just sidesteps.

What is it about the islamist precept of waqf that you don't understand? What part of the Hamas Charter are you unclear about?

 

[Jroc]

That obviously is out of my realm and above my pay grade.

What I posit here is that Israel is perfectly capable of taking care of itself without US foreign aid. In any way, shape, or form.

Why is Israel so timid about cutting the financial umbilical with the U.S.?

Exactly.... Stick to something you know about, energy production, other then that you're clueless.

Do you think Israel is perfectly capable of taking care of itself without US foreign aid. In any way, shape, or form?

Or do you just like to put people down? Make ya feel big do it?

Nah....I don't like it really, I considered you a friend, until your obvious, unreasonable, bias toward Israel surfaced, but Hoss covered it well, so I'm done with you on the subject for now, unless you prefer otherwise

 

[pbel]

You somehow completely missed the ideological imperative that makes acceptance of a non-moslem entity in the Middle East an impossibility for the pious moslem.

Actually, you missed the point that oppression begets resistance. Keep stealing land with further Settlements...

In your hope to avoid addressing a core element of islamist ideology, you didn't addres the fact that moslems are oppressed by islamist ideology.

If you fail to understand the islamist concept of waqf, you're not understanding that slogans alluding to Israeli "oppression" are just sidesteps.

What is it about the islamist precept of waqf that you don't understand? What part of the Hamas Charter are you unclear about?

Who really cares what the concept of the Waqf is unless you thread on their turf? Its like the American slogan, "Don't thread on me."

 

[Hollie]

Actually, you missed the point that oppression begets resistance. Keep stealing land with further Settlements...

In your hope to avoid addressing a core element of islamist ideology, you didn't addres the fact that moslems are oppressed by islamist ideology.

If you fail to understand the islamist concept of waqf, you're not understanding that slogans alluding to Israeli "oppression" are just sidesteps.

What is it about the islamist precept of waqf that you don't understand? What part of the Hamas Charter are you unclear about?

Who really cares what the concept of the Waqf is unless you thread on their turf? Its like the American slogan, "Don't thread on me."

Who really cares? Come on, pbel, read the portions of the Hamas Charter of islamosupremacy I supplied. Using “Don't thread on me" is a horrible analogy. The circumstances were entirely different. You know that the American colonists were Christian / Anglican as were the British, right?

The precept of waqf is an illness that afflicts the islamist world which is steeped in a consummate sense of entitlement which is absolutely unyielding. And, it's about a righteous, murderous rage from the religions’ inventor toward those who deny that entitlement. Hate for the kuffar is central to Islam. It's hard for us to fathom because, while we may fall prey to our own prejudices, we don't wield them as holy mandates for murder.

Most of us have established an inclusive, free, pluralistic society for quite some time now--we tolerate difference. For Islam, unbelief is anathema, and those who refuse to abandon it after being invited to Islam are worthy of death.

The upshot of this rigid literalism in Islam is that the koran and the hadith are not subject to the debate that one will find in the other (reformed) Abrahamic faiths. Islam is the most static of all the world's great faiths. The koran and the hadith are the unyielding yardstick of Moslem life.

I’m not surprised you have avoided addressing the Hamas Charter because of the bullet points I provided, not a one allows for anything but the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews (and non-moslems).

 

[docmauser1]

Who really cares what the concept of the Waqf is unless you thread on their turf? Its like the American slogan, "Don't thread on me."

As Yoda would put it "Funny english we have!", threading on turfs and folks refusing to be threaded on ...

 

[pbel]

In your hope to avoid addressing a core element of islamist ideology, you didn't addres the fact that moslems are oppressed by islamist ideology.

If you fail to understand the islamist concept of waqf, you're not understanding that slogans alluding to Israeli "oppression" are just sidesteps.

What is it about the islamist precept of waqf that you don't understand? What part of the Hamas Charter are you unclear about?

Who really cares what the concept of the Waqf is unless you thread on their turf? Its like the American slogan, "Don't thread on me."

Who really cares? Come on, pbel, read the portions of the Hamas Charter of islamosupremacy I supplied. Using “Don't thread on me" is a horrible analogy. The circumstances were entirely different. You know that the American colonists were Christian / Anglican as were the British, right?

The precept of waqf is an illness that afflicts the islamist world which is steeped in a consummate sense of entitlement which is absolutely unyielding. And, it's about a righteous, murderous rage from the religions’ inventor toward those who deny that entitlement. Hate for the kuffar is central to Islam. It's hard for us to fathom because, while we may fall prey to our own prejudices, we don't wield them as holy mandates for murder.

Most of us have established an inclusive, free, pluralistic society for quite some time now--we tolerate difference. For Islam, unbelief is anathema, and those who refuse to abandon it after being invited to Islam are worthy of death.

The upshot of this rigid literalism in Islam is that the koran and the hadith are not subject to the debate that one will find in the other (reformed) Abrahamic faiths. Islam is the most static of all the world's great faiths. The koran and the hadith are the unyielding yardstick of Moslem life.

I’m not surprised you have avoided addressing the Hamas Charter because of the bullet points I provided, not a one allows for anything but the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews (and non-moslems).

No one was killing Jews or anyone else in Palestine until it became obvious that the Western Powers were planning to create a Jewish State on their lands.

 

[pbel]

Who really cares what the concept of the Waqf is unless you thread on their turf? Its like the American slogan, "Don't thread on me."

Who really cares? Come on, pbel, read the portions of the Hamas Charter of islamosupremacy I supplied. Using “Don't thread on me" is a horrible analogy. The circumstances were entirely different. You know that the American colonists were Christian / Anglican as were the British, right?

The precept of waqf is an illness that afflicts the islamist world which is steeped in a consummate sense of entitlement which is absolutely unyielding. And, it's about a righteous, murderous rage from the religions’ inventor toward those who deny that entitlement. Hate for the kuffar is central to Islam. It's hard for us to fathom because, while we may fall prey to our own prejudices, we don't wield them as holy mandates for murder.

Most of us have established an inclusive, free, pluralistic society for quite some time now--we tolerate difference. For Islam, unbelief is anathema, and those who refuse to abandon it after being invited to Islam are worthy of death.

The upshot of this rigid literalism in Islam is that the koran and the hadith are not subject to the debate that one will find in the other (reformed) Abrahamic faiths. Islam is the most static of all the world's great faiths. The koran and the hadith are the unyielding yardstick of Moslem life.

I’m not surprised you have avoided addressing the Hamas Charter because of the bullet points I provided, not a one allows for anything but the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews (and non-moslems).

No one was killing Jews or anyone else in Palestine until it became obvious that the Western Powers were planning to create a Jewish State on their lands.

P.S.

The only way Islam will change its anachronistic precepts, if the West stops supporting the Dictators and Sheiks to control their populations and forced illiteracy the same way Christianity which murdered more Jews than anyone can count.

Look at Israel's Arab citizens and even recently conquered Jerusalem...They are happy to live in Israel because peace lives on its stomach.

 

[Hollie]

Who really cares? Come on, pbel, read the portions of the Hamas Charter of islamosupremacy I supplied. Using “Don't thread on me" is a horrible analogy. The circumstances were entirely different. You know that the American colonists were Christian / Anglican as were the British, right?

The precept of waqf is an illness that afflicts the islamist world which is steeped in a consummate sense of entitlement which is absolutely unyielding. And, it's about a righteous, murderous rage from the religions’ inventor toward those who deny that entitlement. Hate for the kuffar is central to Islam. It's hard for us to fathom because, while we may fall prey to our own prejudices, we don't wield them as holy mandates for murder.

Most of us have established an inclusive, free, pluralistic society for quite some time now--we tolerate difference. For Islam, unbelief is anathema, and those who refuse to abandon it after being invited to Islam are worthy of death.

The upshot of this rigid literalism in Islam is that the koran and the hadith are not subject to the debate that one will find in the other (reformed) Abrahamic faiths. Islam is the most static of all the world's great faiths. The koran and the hadith are the unyielding yardstick of Moslem life.

I’m not surprised you have avoided addressing the Hamas Charter because of the bullet points I provided, not a one allows for anything but the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews (and non-moslems).

No one was killing Jews or anyone else in Palestine until it became obvious that the Western Powers were planning to create a Jewish State on their lands.

P.S.

The only way Islam will change its anachronistic precepts, if the West stops supporting the Dictators and Sheiks to control their populations and forced illiteracy the same way Christianity which murdered more Jews than anyone can count.

Look at Israel's Arab citizens and even recently conquered Jerusalem...They are happy to live in Israel because peace lives on its stomach.

I don’t accept your volunteering to be the reason islamist nations can’t seem to build functioning societies. That’s not a function of the US supporting the Dictators and Sheiks who moslems elect into office as “Palestinians” did with Hamas.

Democracy, rule of law, constitutional process, etc., needs more than a few ballot boxes to succeed. For a start you need the antecedent respect for individual choice, democratic ideals, respect for constitutional process and the conviction in the common people that one person one vote is the way to break the tribal rivalries, petty differences, ethnic hatreds and paranoid suspicions so prevalent in Arab culture and the maturity to accept the result when it goes against you.

Do you see those attributes anywhere in the Islamist Middle East?

The utter failure of the “Arab Spring” to bring anything to the Islamist Middle East but death and misery can be seen decades earlier. Study the events in Algeria and Egypt during the mid 1990s to see what happens when Arab people, oppressed by authoritarian leaderships for a thousand years do when given the choice of who will rule them.

If you want to save a bit of time, (although I suspect you are a student of history) let me tell you. In both countries, there were obvious landslide movements towards Islamist parties that decreed there could be no debate about what was right and wrong since Islam’s inventor had already revealed it all. In Algeria, the army stepped in with French support and annulled the election which had already been won by a massive majority that would have abolished democracy. Look at what is happening across North Africa and the Middle East where the Arab Spring is only springing up dead bodies like summer dandelions. What did people think the sixty five percent of pious moslems will vote for? Women parliamentarians and pluralism?

These people are not Westerners, schooled from infancy in the value of democracy and freedom. They are fundamentalist Arabs – moslems who respect strong men and an autocratic religion. The word ISLAM means SUBMISSION.

The other point I’ll offer about democracy is this: Of course democracy in a culture like ours is good, but it didn't come from nowhere or spring fully formed from some despotic, misogynistic, progress loathing background like the middle east. It evolved slowly and painfully over about three hundred years and in its current manifestation, operates against a background of people educated from being children into valuing freedom, individuality, responsibility and constitutional process.

 

[pbel]

[/COLOR]
No one was killing Jews or anyone else in Palestine until it became obvious that the Western Powers were planning to create a Jewish State on their lands.

P.S.

The only way Islam will change its anachronistic precepts, if the West stops supporting the Dictators and Sheiks to control their populations and forced illiteracy the same way Christianity which murdered more Jews than anyone can count.

Look at Israel's Arab citizens and even recently conquered Jerusalem...They are happy to live in Israel because peace lives on its stomach.

I don’t accept your volunteering to be the reason islamist nations can’t seem to build functioning societies. That’s not a function of the US supporting the Dictators and Sheiks who moslems elect into office as “Palestinians” did with Hamas.

Democracy, rule of law, constitutional process, etc., needs more than a few ballot boxes to succeed. For a start you need the antecedent respect for individual choice, democratic ideals, respect for constitutional process and the conviction in the common people that one person one vote is the way to break the tribal rivalries, petty differences, ethnic hatreds and paranoid suspicions so prevalent in Arab culture and the maturity to accept the result when it goes against you.

Do you see those attributes anywhere in the Islamist Middle East?

The utter failure of the “Arab Spring” to bring anything to the Islamist Middle East but death and misery can be seen decades earlier. Study the events in Algeria and Egypt during the mid 1990s to see what happens when Arab people, oppressed by authoritarian leaderships for a thousand years do when given the choice of who will rule them.

If you want to save a bit of time, (although I suspect you are a student of history) let me tell you. In both countries, there were obvious landslide movements towards Islamist parties that decreed there could be no debate about what was right and wrong since Islam’s inventor had already revealed it all. In Algeria, the army stepped in with French support and annulled the election which had already been won by a massive majority that would have abolished democracy. Look at what is happening across North Africa and the Middle East where the Arab Spring is only springing up dead bodies like summer dandelions. What did people think the sixty five percent of pious moslems will vote for? Women parliamentarians and pluralism?

These people are not Westerners, schooled from infancy in the value of democracy and freedom. They are fundamentalist Arabs – moslems who respect strong men and an autocratic religion. The word ISLAM means SUBMISSION.

The other point I’ll offer about democracy is this: Of course democracy in a culture like ours is good, but it didn't come from nowhere or spring fully formed from some despotic, misogynistic, progress loathing background like the middle east. It evolved slowly and painfully over about three hundred years and in its current manifestation, operates against a background of people educated from being children into valuing freedom, individuality, responsibility and constitutional process.

I appreciate your essay, however it totally ignores the Dialectic of History and the development of Pluralistic Societies...History is full of examples of Revolutions in Technologically undeveloped societies...The Arab Springs reminds me of the Revolutions of 1848...where all Kings save England, Europe shed its Kings...Then Dictatorships followed...Then Pluralistic Democracies...

Its a march forward, and hyper speed when New Technologies fast forward the process, like Cell Phones today in these underdeveloped Nations...All thought, even Religious Development changes with the prevailing Political System.

Democracy is a march forward...Even when its ugly like Hitler's Germany...Today the German State is very Liberal...Egypt's Democracy should have been left to collapse on its own..

All political systems live on their stomachs. As you can see Tunisia which gave birth to the Arab Spring is already maturing because the Islamic Government could not feed its people.

The sooner Israel sees this handwriting on the wall, of an unstoppable Dialectic and help foster more Democracies, the safer she will become as a Nation that accepts the Arab Leagues offer of peace, before its too late.

 

[Hollie]

P.S.

The only way Islam will change its anachronistic precepts, if the West stops supporting the Dictators and Sheiks to control their populations and forced illiteracy the same way Christianity which murdered more Jews than anyone can count.

Look at Israel's Arab citizens and even recently conquered Jerusalem...They are happy to live in Israel because peace lives on its stomach.

I don’t accept your volunteering to be the reason islamist nations can’t seem to build functioning societies. That’s not a function of the US supporting the Dictators and Sheiks who moslems elect into office as “Palestinians” did with Hamas.

Democracy, rule of law, constitutional process, etc., needs more than a few ballot boxes to succeed. For a start you need the antecedent respect for individual choice, democratic ideals, respect for constitutional process and the conviction in the common people that one person one vote is the way to break the tribal rivalries, petty differences, ethnic hatreds and paranoid suspicions so prevalent in Arab culture and the maturity to accept the result when it goes against you.

Do you see those attributes anywhere in the Islamist Middle East?

The utter failure of the “Arab Spring” to bring anything to the Islamist Middle East but death and misery can be seen decades earlier. Study the events in Algeria and Egypt during the mid 1990s to see what happens when Arab people, oppressed by authoritarian leaderships for a thousand years do when given the choice of who will rule them.

If you want to save a bit of time, (although I suspect you are a student of history) let me tell you. In both countries, there were obvious landslide movements towards Islamist parties that decreed there could be no debate about what was right and wrong since Islam’s inventor had already revealed it all. In Algeria, the army stepped in with French support and annulled the election which had already been won by a massive majority that would have abolished democracy. Look at what is happening across North Africa and the Middle East where the Arab Spring is only springing up dead bodies like summer dandelions. What did people think the sixty five percent of pious moslems will vote for? Women parliamentarians and pluralism?

These people are not Westerners, schooled from infancy in the value of democracy and freedom. They are fundamentalist Arabs – moslems who respect strong men and an autocratic religion. The word ISLAM means SUBMISSION.

The other point I’ll offer about democracy is this: Of course democracy in a culture like ours is good, but it didn't come from nowhere or spring fully formed from some despotic, misogynistic, progress loathing background like the middle east. It evolved slowly and painfully over about three hundred years and in its current manifestation, operates against a background of people educated from being children into valuing freedom, individuality, responsibility and constitutional process.

I appreciate your essay, however it totally ignores the Dialectic of History and the development of Pluralistic Societies...History is full of examples of Revolutions in Technologically undeveloped societies...The Arab Springs reminds me of the Revolutions of 1848...where all Kings save England, Europe shed its Kings...Then Dictatorships followed...Then Pluralistic Democracies...

Its a march forward, and hyper speed when New Technologies fast forward the process, like Cell Phones today in these underdeveloped Nations...All thought, even Religious Development changes with the prevailing Political System.

Democracy is a march forward...Even when its ugly like Hitler's Germany...Today the German State is very Liberal...Egypt's Democracy should have been left to collapse on its own..

All political systems live on their stomachs. As you can see Tunisia which gave birth to the Arab Spring is already maturing because the Islamic Government could not feed 8its people.

The sooner Israel sees this handwriting on the wall, of an unstoppable Dialectic and help foster more Democracies, the safer she will become as a Nation that accepts the Arab Leagues offer of peace, before its too late.

The Arab league offer of peace?

Have you emailed Hamas with the text of the offer? Somehow I didn't get that email.

Could you send the email to the neighboring arab - North African islamist nations? And please cc me on their responses.

Thanks.

 

[pbel]

I don’t accept your volunteering to be the reason islamist nations can’t seem to build functioning societies. That’s not a function of the US supporting the Dictators and Sheiks who moslems elect into office as “Palestinians” did with Hamas.

Democracy, rule of law, constitutional process, etc., needs more than a few ballot boxes to succeed. For a start you need the antecedent respect for individual choice, democratic ideals, respect for constitutional process and the conviction in the common people that one person one vote is the way to break the tribal rivalries, petty differences, ethnic hatreds and paranoid suspicions so prevalent in Arab culture and the maturity to accept the result when it goes against you.

Do you see those attributes anywhere in the Islamist Middle East?

The utter failure of the “Arab Spring” to bring anything to the Islamist Middle East but death and misery can be seen decades earlier. Study the events in Algeria and Egypt during the mid 1990s to see what happens when Arab people, oppressed by authoritarian leaderships for a thousand years do when given the choice of who will rule them.

If you want to save a bit of time, (although I suspect you are a student of history) let me tell you. In both countries, there were obvious landslide movements towards Islamist parties that decreed there could be no debate about what was right and wrong since Islam’s inventor had already revealed it all. In Algeria, the army stepped in with French support and annulled the election which had already been won by a massive majority that would have abolished democracy. Look at what is happening across North Africa and the Middle East where the Arab Spring is only springing up dead bodies like summer dandelions. What did people think the sixty five percent of pious moslems will vote for? Women parliamentarians and pluralism?

These people are not Westerners, schooled from infancy in the value of democracy and freedom. They are fundamentalist Arabs – moslems who respect strong men and an autocratic religion. The word ISLAM means SUBMISSION.

The other point I’ll offer about democracy is this: Of course democracy in a culture like ours is good, but it didn't come from nowhere or spring fully formed from some despotic, misogynistic, progress loathing background like the middle east. It evolved slowly and painfully over about three hundred years and in its current manifestation, operates against a background of people educated from being children into valuing freedom, individuality, responsibility and constitutional process.

I appreciate your essay, however it totally ignores the Dialectic of History and the development of Pluralistic Societies...History is full of examples of Revolutions in Technologically undeveloped societies...The Arab Springs reminds me of the Revolutions of 1848...where all Kings save England, Europe shed its Kings...Then Dictatorships followed...Then Pluralistic Democracies...

Its a march forward, and hyper speed when New Technologies fast forward the process, like Cell Phones today in these underdeveloped Nations...All thought, even Religious Development changes with the prevailing Political System.

Democracy is a march forward...Even when its ugly like Hitler's Germany...Today the German State is very Liberal...Egypt's Democracy should have been left to collapse on its own..

All political systems live on their stomachs. As you can see Tunisia which gave birth to the Arab Spring is already maturing because the Islamic Government could not feed 8its people.

The sooner Israel sees this handwriting on the wall, of an unstoppable Dialectic and help foster more Democracies, the safer she will become as a Nation that accepts the Arab Leagues offer of peace, before its too late.

The Arab league offer of peace?

Have you emailed Hamas with the text of the offer? Somehow I didn't get that email.

Could you send the email to the neighboring arab - North African islamist nations? And please cc me on their responses.

Thanks.

The usual Israeli apologist answer to a real peace proposal...Hamas is not a party to this peace offer or has the Abbas Government, bringing up Hamas . Even Netanyahu is NOT talking to Hamas and at this moment is negotiating with Fatah which has the support of the UN in its quest for Nationhood.

I am very well aware of peace being anathema to Israel, while it aggressively settles on Palestinian Lands for a bigger Piece against all UN resolutions and international norms...This is why the Jihadists are winning, the Injustice is glaring.

Your monkey wrench will not win out in the test of time.

 

[Hollie]

I appreciate your essay, however it totally ignores the Dialectic of History and the development of Pluralistic Societies...History is full of examples of Revolutions in Technologically undeveloped societies...The Arab Springs reminds me of the Revolutions of 1848...where all Kings save England, Europe shed its Kings...Then Dictatorships followed...Then Pluralistic Democracies...

Its a march forward, and hyper speed when New Technologies fast forward the process, like Cell Phones today in these underdeveloped Nations...All thought, even Religious Development changes with the prevailing Political System.

Democracy is a march forward...Even when its ugly like Hitler's Germany...Today the German State is very Liberal...Egypt's Democracy should have been left to collapse on its own..

All political systems live on their stomachs. As you can see Tunisia which gave birth to the Arab Spring is already maturing because the Islamic Government could not feed 8its people.

The sooner Israel sees this handwriting on the wall, of an unstoppable Dialectic and help foster more Democracies, the safer she will become as a Nation that accepts the Arab Leagues offer of peace, before its too late.

The Arab league offer of peace?

Have you emailed Hamas with the text of the offer? Somehow I didn't get that email.

Could you send the email to the neighboring arab - North African islamist nations? And please cc me on their responses.

Thanks.

The usual Israeli apologist answer to a real peace proposal...Hamas is not a party to this peace offer or has the Abbas Government, bringing up Hamas . Even Netanyahu is NOT talking to Hamas and at this moment is negotiating with Fatah which has the support of the UN in its quest for Nationhood.

I am very well aware of peace being anathema to Israel, while it aggressively settles on Palestinian Lands for a bigger Piece against all UN resolutions and international norms...This is why the Jihadists are winning, the Injustice is glaring.

Your monkey wrench will not win out in the test of time.

You haven’t identified how Israel is supposed to secure borders with a hostile islamist terrorist organization sharing that border. Are you thinking that the Hamas terrorists will somehow abandon their Charter?

It’s more than a little ironic that you vilify Israel as the obstacle to peace when islamist terrorists are digging tunnels in an attempt to gain access to Israel.

We’ve now gone from you insisting that the US is responsible for Islamic terrorism to some odd connection between cell phones “hyper-speeding” Pluralistic Democracies. As far as I am aware, the “Palestinian” arabs have had cell phones for quite some time now. That hyper-speeding didn’t seem to make much of a difference in terms of the election that brought Hamas to government office.

 

[pbel]

The Arab league offer of peace?

Have you emailed Hamas with the text of the offer? Somehow I didn't get that email.

Could you send the email to the neighboring arab - North African islamist nations? And please cc me on their responses.

Thanks.

The usual Israeli apologist answer to a real peace proposal...Hamas is not a party to this peace offer or has the Abbas Government, bringing up Hamas . Even Netanyahu is NOT talking to Hamas and at this moment is negotiating with Fatah which has the support of the UN in its quest for Nationhood.

I am very well aware of peace being anathema to Israel, while it aggressively settles on Palestinian Lands for a bigger Piece against all UN resolutions and international norms...This is why the Jihadists are winning, the Injustice is glaring.

Your monkey wrench will not win out in the test of time.

You haven’t identified how Israel is supposed to secure borders with a hostile islamist terrorist organization sharing that border. Are you thinking that the Hamas terrorists will somehow abandon their Charter?

It’s more than a little ironic that you vilify Israel as the obstacle to peace when islamist terrorists are digging tunnels in an attempt to gain access to Israel.

We’ve now gone from you insisting that the US is responsible for Islamic terrorism to some odd connection between cell phones “hyper-speeding” Pluralistic Democracies. As far as I am aware, the “Palestinian” arabs have had cell phones for quite some time now. That hyper-speeding didn’t seem to make much of a difference in terms of the election that brought Hamas to government office.

Yes, Western political fiats have fueled the hate towards America...Our needs for an energy supply overshadowed our common sense, to just buy the Oil at the cost of supporting King/Dictators at the cost of feeding their people. Islam, just sees Israel of an extension of Western Power Politics for stealing oil, their people's wealth...

Israel is seen as a Western Lackey to keep them in line.

What Israel must do is to accept a Palestinian State and help that state succeed by using common sense by creating jobs...She must become part of the Fabric of the ME, she should understand that American non-reliance on oil with the new technology of franking
will pull back on its support for its client state. Europe is still dependent but making deals with the Russians...

I see it today, with Obama and the world as witness by the approval of non-member statehood in the UN membership to the 67 borders...

Yes Israel will ignore the International norms which gave her birth through the UN...She is the least liked nation behind N. Korea and Iran in world polls...

We're all sick of the ME and its wars...Boycotts of Israel are gaining steam..."The writing is on the wall!"


History marches on, Israel, or no Israel...its their choice if they can read between the lines.

 

[Hollie]

The usual Israeli apologist answer to a real peace proposal...Hamas is not a party to this peace offer or has the Abbas Government, bringing up Hamas . Even Netanyahu is NOT talking to Hamas and at this moment is negotiating with Fatah which has the support of the UN in its quest for Nationhood.

I am very well aware of peace being anathema to Israel, while it aggressively settles on Palestinian Lands for a bigger Piece against all UN resolutions and international norms...This is why the Jihadists are winning, the Injustice is glaring.

Your monkey wrench will not win out in the test of time.

You haven’t identified how Israel is supposed to secure borders with a hostile islamist terrorist organization sharing that border. Are you thinking that the Hamas terrorists will somehow abandon their Charter?

It’s more than a little ironic that you vilify Israel as the obstacle to peace when islamist terrorists are digging tunnels in an attempt to gain access to Israel.

We’ve now gone from you insisting that the US is responsible for Islamic terrorism to some odd connection between cell phones “hyper-speeding” Pluralistic Democracies. As far as I am aware, the “Palestinian” arabs have had cell phones for quite some time now. That hyper-speeding didn’t seem to make much of a difference in terms of the election that brought Hamas to government office.

Yes, Western political fiats have fueled the hate towards America...Our needs for an energy supply overshadowed our common sense, to just buy the Oil at the cost of supporting King/Dictators at the cost of feeding their people. Islam, just sees Israel of an extension of Western Power Politics for stealing oil, their people's wealth...

Israel is seen as a Western Lackey to keep them in line.

What Israel must do is to accept a Palestinian State and help that state succeed by using common sense by creating jobs...She must become part of the Fabric of the ME, she should understand that American non-reliance on oil with the new technology of franking
will pull back on its support for its client state. Europe is still dependent but making deals with the Russians...

I see it today, with Obama and the world as witness by the approval of non-member statehood in the UN membership to the 67 borders...

Yes Israel will ignore the International norms which gave her birth...She is the least like nation behind N. Korea and Iran in world polls...

We're all sick of the ME and its wars...Boycotts of Israel are gaining steam..."The writing is on the wall!"


History marches on, Israel, or no Israel...its their choice if they can read between the lines.

So help us understand that Islamic terrorism is actually our fault. Great. Got it. I guess the only downside to that admission is that we're left to build new excuses why Islamic societies are continually dysfunctional even without the US supporting islamist dictators.

So we're back to asking you to help us understand how anyone convinces Hamas to abandon it's Islamic ideology.

 

[pbel]

You haven’t identified how Israel is supposed to secure borders with a hostile islamist terrorist organization sharing that border. Are you thinking that the Hamas terrorists will somehow abandon their Charter?

It’s more than a little ironic that you vilify Israel as the obstacle to peace when islamist terrorists are digging tunnels in an attempt to gain access to Israel.

We’ve now gone from you insisting that the US is responsible for Islamic terrorism to some odd connection between cell phones “hyper-speeding” Pluralistic Democracies. As far as I am aware, the “Palestinian” arabs have had cell phones for quite some time now. That hyper-speeding didn’t seem to make much of a difference in terms of the election that brought Hamas to government office.

Yes, Western political fiats have fueled the hate towards America...Our needs for an energy supply overshadowed our common sense, to just buy the Oil at the cost of supporting King/Dictators at the cost of feeding their people. Islam, just sees Israel of an extension of Western Power Politics for stealing oil, their people's wealth...

Israel is seen as a Western Lackey to keep them in line.

What Israel must do is to accept a Palestinian State and help that state succeed by using common sense by creating jobs...She must become part of the Fabric of the ME, she should understand that American non-reliance on oil with the new technology of franking
will pull back on its support for its client state. Europe is still dependent but making deals with the Russians...

I see it today, with Obama and the world as witness by the approval of non-member statehood in the UN membership to the 67 borders...

Yes Israel will ignore the International norms which gave her birth...She is the least like nation behind N. Korea and Iran in world polls...

We're all sick of the ME and its wars...Boycotts of Israel are gaining steam..."The writing is on the wall!"


History marches on, Israel, or no Israel...its their choice if they can read between the lines.

So help us understand that Islamic terrorism is actually our fault. Great. Got it. I guess the only downside to that admission is that we're left to build new excuses why Islamic societies are continually dysfunctional even without the US supporting islamist dictators.

So we're back to asking you to help us understand how anyone convinces Hamas to abandon it's Islamic ideology.

I've said it once I'll say it again. Ignore Hamas in the Peace deal and let Israel bomb their valuable infrastructures while warning well in advance the targets to let civilians leave the area like Clinton did in Serbia.

Israel has the Human Right to defend itself from violence.

After the Peace, give Fatah the military means to subdue Gaza and hold free elections in a reasonable time.

That time should be used to normalize Gaza with financial incentives.

 

[pbel]

Yes, Western political fiats have fueled the hate towards America...Our needs for an energy supply overshadowed our common sense, to just buy the Oil at the cost of supporting King/Dictators at the cost of feeding their people. Islam, just sees Israel of an extension of Western Power Politics for stealing oil, their people's wealth...

Israel is seen as a Western Lackey to keep them in line.

What Israel must do is to accept a Palestinian State and help that state succeed by using common sense by creating jobs...She must become part of the Fabric of the ME, she should understand that American non-reliance on oil with the new technology of franking
will pull back on its support for its client state. Europe is still dependent but making deals with the Russians...

I see it today, with Obama and the world as witness by the approval of non-member statehood in the UN membership to the 67 borders...

Yes Israel will ignore the International norms which gave her birth...She is the least like nation behind N. Korea and Iran in world polls...

We're all sick of the ME and its wars...Boycotts of Israel are gaining steam..."The writing is on the wall!"


History marches on, Israel, or no Israel...its their choice if they can read between the lines.

So help us understand that Islamic terrorism is actually our fault. Great. Got it. I guess the only downside to that admission is that we're left to build new excuses why Islamic societies are continually dysfunctional even without the US supporting islamist dictators.

So we're back to asking you to help us understand how anyone convinces Hamas to abandon it's Islamic ideology.

I've said it once I'll say it again. Ignore Hamas in the Peace deal and let Israel bomb their valuable infrastructures while warning well in advance the targets to let civilians leave the area like Clinton did in Serbia.

Israel has the Human Right to defend itself from violence.

After the Peace, give Fatah the military means to subdue Gaza and hold free elections in a reasonable time.

That time should be used to normalize Gaza with financial incentives.

P.S.

Also, if Hamas does not want to be part of Palestine, let them secede...