Zone1 They Were Eyewitnesses to the Death and Resurrection

[BreezeWood]

Only if you ignore what Tacitus wrote and what Pliny wrote and what Lucian wrote, right?

ignore the fact they spent nearly a 100 years writing the christian bible and did not preserve their documents in an appendix in which not a single document they claim is preserved by them.

where is the repudiation of judaism's false commandments and hereditary idolatry et al found in the christian bible - the very reason jesus and those others gave their lives, for the original goal of self determination, liberation theology.

 

[ding]

ignore the fact they spent nearly a 100 years writing the christian bible and did not preserve their documents in an appendix in which not a single document they claim is preserved by them.

where is the repudiation of judaism's false commandments and hereditary idolatry et al found in the christian bible - the very reason jesus and those others gave their lives, for the original goal of self determination, liberation theology.

Ignore the history of the early Christians and apostles because everything is based off of what made them believe as they did.

 

[Meriweather]

One might almost say unbelievable:

Why focus on the past? Ask, What is Jesus doing in my life today?

 

[skews13]

According to the Latter-day Saint faith, the 11 witnesses of the Book of Mormon, including the "Three Witnesses" (Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer), all died of natural causes, with none of them publicly denying their testimonies about the golden plates even though several eventually left the Church due to disagreements with Joseph Smith and other leadership issues; however, some like Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris later sought to rejoin the Church before their deaths.

Key points about the witnesses' deaths:

• No public denial:
  Despite leaving the Church, none of the witnesses ever publicly denied their testimony about seeing the golden plates.
  
  
• Causes of death:
  All the witnesses died from natural causes, with details depending on the individual's life circumstances.
  
  
• Different paths after leaving:
  While some like David Whitmer founded their own church, others like Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris eventually sought to be rebaptized into the LDS Church before their deaths.

Even on their death beds, they never denied what they saw and witnessed with the Gold Plates and the Book of Mormon. Many of them were persecuted after Joseph Smith was murdered. Yet, they never denied their testimonies.

The Mormon religion was created by Smith because he got caught cheating on his wife.

 

[alang1216]

Why focus on the past? Ask, What is Jesus doing in my life today?

The past is the key to understanding the present.

 

[alang1216]

Only if you ignore what Tacitus wrote and what Pliny wrote and what Lucian wrote, right?

Did they do any more than confirm that there were a group that worshipped a man named Jesus who was crucified in Judea? Something almost all us believe.

And then there's the early Christians themselves and the apostles. All in all it's pretty ridiculous to believe Christianity wasn't founded on the teaching and miracles performed by Jesus Christ. Because what is the alternative? How do you explain the behaviors of the early Christians and apostles?

The teachings of Jesus would barely fill a page, he certainly left us no writings that I know of. Did all the early Christians share the the teachings and miracles performed by Jesus Christ or does their understanding of him evolve over time?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Did they do any more than confirm that there were a group that worshipped a man named Jesus who was crucified in Judea? Something almost all us believe.


The teachings of Jesus would barely fill a page, he certainly left us no writings that I know of. Did all the early Christians share the the teachings and miracles performed by Jesus Christ or does their understanding of him evolve over time?

You won't be remembered in 50 years

 

[ding]

Did they do any more than confirm that there were a group that worshipped a man named Jesus who was crucified in Judea? Something almost all us believe.


The teachings of Jesus would barely fill a page, he certainly left us no writings that I know of. Did all the early Christians share the the teachings and miracles performed by Jesus Christ or does their understanding of him evolve over time?

Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny and Lucian, testify that early Christians worshipped Jesus as God.

The written manuscripts are testimonials as to why early Christians worshipped Jesus as God.

 

[ding]

The past is the key to understanding the present.

Tell that to the climate community.

 

[ding]

The teachings of Jesus would barely fill a page, he certainly left us no writings that I know of. Did all the early Christians share the the teachings and miracles performed by Jesus Christ or does their understanding of him evolve over time?

All the more remarkable that a 3 1/2 year ministry of a convicted criminal has had such an effect on so many people and changed the world. Has there been any event or person in the history of mankind that has been studied more than Jesus Christ and his 3 1/2 year ministry and subsequent crucifixion and resurrection?

If the miracles Jesus performed never happened then what transpired afterwards makes no sense. Jesus being worshipped as God only make sense if Jesus really did perform those miracles.

I go back to you only have two choices; Jesus is who he said he is or the granddaddy of all conspiracies. So as hard as the first one is to believe, the second one is even harder to believe. That is if you walk through what it would take to pull off such an astonishing and long lived conspiracy. Especially since there's no motive for the early Christians to do so. They were persecuted for it. So they really believed it and the written manuscripts explain why they believed it.

 

[Meriweather]

The past is the key to understanding the present.

Not if you are shooting down what was past.

 

[BreezeWood]

Ask, What is Jesus doing in my life today?

the heavens are not doing anything in anyone's life - finding heaven is a much better idea.

 

[BreezeWood]

That is if you walk through what it would take to pull off such an astonishing and long lived conspiracy.

ignore the fact they spent nearly 100 years writing the christian bible and did not preserve their documents in an appendix in which not a single document they claim is preserved by them.

there is not a conspiracy - the unrepentant, recorded history of persecution and victimization of the innocent by christianity, the desert religions is the result not made by jesus but by those that wrote the christian bible and the other documents of those three religions.

- they took just short of 100 years to write their christian bible and wrote it in a way that reflected their agenda, the state religion of the roman empire than what were the true events of the 1st century the repudiation of judaism's false commandments, hereditary idolatry et al - a religion of servitude and denial than what the 1st century sought liberation theology, self determination to free their spirits for admission to the everlasting as equals to those already there - what is the beginning and choice made by a&e.

 

[ding]

there is not a conspiracy - the unrepentant, recorded history of persecution and victimization of the innocent by christianity, the desert religions is the result not made by jesus but by those that wrote the christian bible and the other documents of those three religions.

- they took just short of 100 years to write their christian bible and wrote it in a way that reflected their agenda, the state religion of the roman empire than what were the true events of the 1st century the repudiation of judaism's false commandments, hereditary idolatry et al - a religion of servitude and denial than what the 1st century sought liberation theology, self determination to free their spirits for admission to the everlasting as equals to those already there - what is the beginning and choice made by a&e.

Do you have any evidence of that?

 

[ding]

the heavens are not doing anything in anyone's life

According to whom?

 

[alang1216]

You won't be remembered in 50 years

You're wrong. My posts in the USMB archives will endure forever.

 

[alang1216]

Tell that to the climate community.

They know.

 

[alang1216]

All the more remarkable that a 3 1/2 year ministry of a convicted criminal has had such an effect on so many people and changed the world. Has there been any event or person in the history of mankind that has been studied more than Jesus Christ and his 3 1/2 year ministry and subsequent crucifixion and resurrection?

I'd say Alexander the Great has been well studied and, arguably had an even greater influence on Western culture than Jesus. Mohammad, the Budda, and Gengis Khan would be on a short list too.

If the miracles Jesus performed never happened then what transpired afterwards makes no sense. Jesus being worshipped as God only make sense if Jesus really did perform those miracles.

Was he worshipped as God because he really did perform those miracles or were miracles attributed to him because he was worshipped as God?

I go back to you only have two choices; Jesus is who he said he is or the granddaddy of all conspiracies. So as hard as the first one is to believe, the second one is even harder to believe. That is if you walk through what it would take to pull off such an astonishing and long lived conspiracy. Especially since there's no motive for the early Christians to do so. They were persecuted for it. So they really believed it and the written manuscripts explain why they believed it.

Do you believe in the Golden Plates of Joseph Smith or the dictation of an angel to Mohammad? Plenty of people do and they are ready to die for their beliefs.

 

[alang1216]

Not if you are shooting down what was past.

If the truth is 'shooting down' the past, you may want to rethink what you believe, it seems to be built on a house of cards.

 

[Meriweather]

If the truth is 'shooting down' the past, you may want to rethink what you believe, it seems to be built on a house of cards.

Shrug. You were the one declaring a historical document as not true, despite other indications. My point was that instead of arguing over what people of the past may have said--or not said--about Jesus, what are we learning about him as we welcome him into our own lives today? If you say, "I don't welcome him in..." end of discussion. You can't discuss someone you don't know.