There Is Evidence For God

[esalla]

If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless

There is no ABSOLUTe evidence that leaves one with no decision regarding faith, but there is evidence.

It is similar to how astronomers used to look at the wobbles of outer planets looking for a planet behind that one.

The evidence was never 100% till the actual planet was found, but the gravitational and orbital evidence was fairly accurate, with only few errors involved.

That may be, but there is nothing that proves that one's god is the right one. For all that the Muslim know's the Christians are right, and a Hades of some sort awaits. For all that the Christian knows, Elah/Allah will be flipping the Christians over on his barbeque.

And these are but two personifications of the same god. Perhaps the pagan Hebrews were right to make offerings to Ashtoreth, before the Patriarchalists overthrew their society. Between these, no one can decide, except by their own feelings.

Dna is a molecular computer language that rearranges atoms into life. Languages do not form without a writer

Assuming you are correct, who is the writer. And how can you be certain what attributes the writer posesses?

The writer fills the scientific requirement for a programmer of information, nothing about the programmer is known except the self evolving masterpieces of programming left behind. This is very distasteful to many because it means that we may well be nothing more than tools designed for an unknown purpose or just a science project

 

[Agit8r]

If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless

There is no ABSOLUTe evidence that leaves one with no decision regarding faith, but there is evidence.

It is similar to how astronomers used to look at the wobbles of outer planets looking for a planet behind that one.

The evidence was never 100% till the actual planet was found, but the gravitational and orbital evidence was fairly accurate, with only few errors involved.

That may be, but there is nothing that proves that one's god is the right one. For all that the Muslim know's the Christians are right, and a Hades of some sort awaits. For all that the Christian knows, Elah/Allah will be flipping the Christians over on his barbeque.

And these are but two personifications of the same god. Perhaps the pagan Hebrews were right to make offerings to Ashtoreth, before the Patriarchalists overthrew their society. Between these, no one can decide, except by their own feelings.

Dna is a molecular computer language that rearranges atoms into life. Languages do not form without a writer

Assuming you are correct, who is the writer. And how can you be certain what attributes the writer posesses?

The writer fills the scientific requirement for a programmer of information, nothing about the programmer is known except the self evolving masterpieces of programming left behind. This is very distasteful to many because it means that we may well be nothing more than tools designed for an unknown purpose or just a science project

Or indeed the result of breeding experiment based upon an aesthetic standard that is imperfect--the will of humans

 

[esalla]

If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless

There is no ABSOLUTe evidence that leaves one with no decision regarding faith, but there is evidence.

It is similar to how astronomers used to look at the wobbles of outer planets looking for a planet behind that one.

The evidence was never 100% till the actual planet was found, but the gravitational and orbital evidence was fairly accurate, with only few errors involved.

That may be, but there is nothing that proves that one's god is the right one. For all that the Muslim know's the Christians are right, and a Hades of some sort awaits. For all that the Christian knows, Elah/Allah will be flipping the Christians over on his barbeque.

And these are but two personifications of the same god. Perhaps the pagan Hebrews were right to make offerings to Ashtoreth, before the Patriarchalists overthrew their society. Between these, no one can decide, except by their own feelings.

Dna is a molecular computer language that rearranges atoms into life. Languages do not form without a writer

Assuming you are correct, who is the writer. And how can you be certain what attributes the writer posesses?

The writer fills the scientific requirement for a programmer of information, nothing about the programmer is known except the self evolving masterpieces of programming left behind. This is very distasteful to many because it means that we may well be nothing more than tools designed for an unknown purpose or just a science project

Or indeed the result of breeding experiment based upon an aesthetic standard that is imperfect--the will of humans

Humans have no free will, we do as our programming directs, just like any computer can only execute programming

 

[JimBowie1958]

If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless

There is no ABSOLUTe evidence that leaves one with no decision regarding faith, but there is evidence.

It is similar to how astronomers used to look at the wobbles of outer planets looking for a planet behind that one.

The evidence was never 100% till the actual planet was found, but the gravitational and orbital evidence was fairly accurate, with only few errors involved.

That may be, but there is nothing that proves that one's god is the right one. For all that the Muslim know's the Christians are right, and a Hades of some sort awaits. For all that the Christian knows, Elah/Allah will be flipping the Christians over on his barbeque.

And these are but two personifications of the same god. Perhaps the pagan Hebrews were right to make offerings to Ashtoreth, before the Patriarchalists overthrew their society. Between these, no one can decide, except by their own feelings.

There is only ONE Creator, and thousands of human concepts that attempt to describe Him.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Humans have no free will, we do as our programming directs, just like any computer can only execute programming

If that were true, the Pentagon would have saved lots of money over the last few decades, trying to determine our trained troops will react in combat.

They only fail to achieve that goal.

Maybe you should write them a letter

 

[PoliticalChic]

If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless

There is no ABSOLUTe evidence that leaves one with no decision regarding faith, but there is evidence.

It is similar to how astronomers used to look at the wobbles of outer planets looking for a planet behind that one.

The evidence was never 100% till the actual planet was found, but the gravitational and orbital evidence was fairly accurate, with only few errors involved.

That may be, but there is nothing that proves that one's god is the right one. For all that the Muslim know's the Christians are right, and a Hades of some sort awaits. For all that the Christian knows, Elah/Allah will be flipping the Christians over on his barbeque.

And these are but two personifications of the same god. Perhaps the pagan Hebrews were right to make offerings to Ashtoreth, before the Patriarchalists overthrew their society. Between these, no one can decide, except by their own feelings.

1. They are certainly not the same God.
“I have been commanded to wage war against mankind till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, …and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf ….”

Know whose quote that is?

Muhammad bin Abdullah (570-632)

It is written, incidentally, in Leviticus, "Love your neighbor as yourself, I am God." I, God, tell you to be decent to other people.



2. "If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless"

I believe you have an excellent point there.

If the Bible made a definite statement that there is such a judgment it would obviate the central gift to mankind: free will.

Free will and the intelligence to judge our actions are left to the individual. Perhaps that is why evil continues to exist….an individual doesn’t know for a fact that they will be held responsible for their actions. But it they did.....

“If people knew that if they acted badly in this world they would be immediately punished, there would no longer be free will (even career criminals don’t commit crimes in the presence of police).” Dennis Prager

 

[esalla]

Humans have no free will, we do as our programming directs, just like any computer can only execute programming

If that were true, the Pentagon would have saved lots of money over the last few decades, trying to determine our trained troops will react in combat.

They only fail to achieve that goal.

Maybe you should write them a letter

You left out the word how, and you dumped useless thoughts on the World that reveal a futile existence.

Again everything we do is part of our programming, what we need to see is the purpose then all is sensible. At this point the only thing that is for sure is that some must leave in order so that some may return or move on

 

[esalla]

If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless

There is no ABSOLUTe evidence that leaves one with no decision regarding faith, but there is evidence.

It is similar to how astronomers used to look at the wobbles of outer planets looking for a planet behind that one.

The evidence was never 100% till the actual planet was found, but the gravitational and orbital evidence was fairly accurate, with only few errors involved.

That may be, but there is nothing that proves that one's god is the right one. For all that the Muslim know's the Christians are right, and a Hades of some sort awaits. For all that the Christian knows, Elah/Allah will be flipping the Christians over on his barbeque.

And these are but two personifications of the same god. Perhaps the pagan Hebrews were right to make offerings to Ashtoreth, before the Patriarchalists overthrew their society. Between these, no one can decide, except by their own feelings.

1. They are certainly not the same God.
“I have been commanded to wage war against mankind till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, …and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf ….”

Know whose quote that is?

Muhammad bin Abdullah (570-632)

It is written, incidentally, in Leviticus, "Love your neighbor as yourself, I am God." I, God, tell you to be decent to other people.



2. "If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless"

I believe you have an excellent point there.

If the Bible made a definite statement that there is such a judgment it would obviate the central gift to mankind: free will.

Free will and the intelligence to judge our actions are left to the individual. Perhaps that is why evil continues to exist….an individual doesn’t know for a fact that they will be held responsible for their actions. But it they did.....

“If people knew that if they acted badly in this world they would be immediately punished, there would no longer be free will (even career criminals don’t commit crimes in the presence of police).” Dennis Prager

You have no free will, just an illusion of purpose. You will neither prove or disprove any God here, or there or anywhere. So move on to a better place

 

[Agit8r]

If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless

There is no ABSOLUTe evidence that leaves one with no decision regarding faith, but there is evidence.

It is similar to how astronomers used to look at the wobbles of outer planets looking for a planet behind that one.

The evidence was never 100% till the actual planet was found, but the gravitational and orbital evidence was fairly accurate, with only few errors involved.

That may be, but there is nothing that proves that one's god is the right one. For all that the Muslim know's the Christians are right, and a Hades of some sort awaits. For all that the Christian knows, Elah/Allah will be flipping the Christians over on his barbeque.

And these are but two personifications of the same god. Perhaps the pagan Hebrews were right to make offerings to Ashtoreth, before the Patriarchalists overthrew their society. Between these, no one can decide, except by their own feelings.

1. They are certainly not the same God.
“I have been commanded to wage war against mankind till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, …and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf ….”

Know whose quote that is?

Muhammad bin Abdullah (570-632)

It is written, incidentally, in Leviticus, "Love your neighbor as yourself, I am God." I, God, tell you to be decent to other people.



2. "If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless"

I believe you have an excellent point there.

If the Bible made a definite statement that there is such a judgment it would obviate the central gift to mankind: free will.

Free will and the intelligence to judge our actions are left to the individual. Perhaps that is why evil continues to exist….an individual doesn’t know for a fact that they will be held responsible for their actions. But it they did.....

“If people knew that if they acted badly in this world they would be immediately punished, there would no longer be free will (even career criminals don’t commit crimes in the presence of police).” Dennis Prager

The Arabic word for "God" is Allah, even for those who are believers in Christianity. There are indeed parellel verses in the scriptures of each religion:

"Piety does not lie in turning your face to East or West: Piety lies in believing in God, the Last Day and the angels, the Scriptures and the prophets, and disbursing your wealth out of love for God among your kin and the orphans, the wayfarers and mendicants, freeing the slaves" -- The Cow - 2:177 (Sura: 2, Verse: 177)​

The Old Testament has the parallel

'Whoever despises his neighbor is a sinner, but blessed is he who is generous to the poor." -- Proverbs 14:21​

And the same sense of justice in the New Testament:

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’​

​

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’​

​

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’​

​

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’​

​

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”​

So clearly there is indeed a common sense of how one escapes spiritual death and torment in these three traditions--that the burden of evidence of faith is always upon the believer to prove through his/her actions toward others.

 

[esalla]

If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless

There is no ABSOLUTe evidence that leaves one with no decision regarding faith, but there is evidence.

It is similar to how astronomers used to look at the wobbles of outer planets looking for a planet behind that one.

The evidence was never 100% till the actual planet was found, but the gravitational and orbital evidence was fairly accurate, with only few errors involved.

That may be, but there is nothing that proves that one's god is the right one. For all that the Muslim know's the Christians are right, and a Hades of some sort awaits. For all that the Christian knows, Elah/Allah will be flipping the Christians over on his barbeque.

And these are but two personifications of the same god. Perhaps the pagan Hebrews were right to make offerings to Ashtoreth, before the Patriarchalists overthrew their society. Between these, no one can decide, except by their own feelings.

1. They are certainly not the same God.
“I have been commanded to wage war against mankind till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, …and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf ….”

Know whose quote that is?

Muhammad bin Abdullah (570-632)

It is written, incidentally, in Leviticus, "Love your neighbor as yourself, I am God." I, God, tell you to be decent to other people.



2. "If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless"

I believe you have an excellent point there.

If the Bible made a definite statement that there is such a judgment it would obviate the central gift to mankind: free will.

Free will and the intelligence to judge our actions are left to the individual. Perhaps that is why evil continues to exist….an individual doesn’t know for a fact that they will be held responsible for their actions. But it they did.....

“If people knew that if they acted badly in this world they would be immediately punished, there would no longer be free will (even career criminals don’t commit crimes in the presence of police).” Dennis Prager

The Arabic word for "God" is Allah, even for those who are believers in Christianity. There are indeed parellel verses in the scriptures of each religion:

"Piety does not lie in turning your face to East or West: Piety lies in believing in God, the Last Day and the angels, the Scriptures and the prophets, and disbursing your wealth out of love for God among your kin and the orphans, the wayfarers and mendicants, freeing the slaves" -- The Cow - 2:177 (Sura: 2, Verse: 177)​

The Old Testament has the parrellel

'Whoever despises his neighbor is a sinner, but blessed is he who is generous to the poor." -- Proverbs 14:21​

and the same sense of justice in the New Testament:

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’​

​

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’​

​

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’​

​

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’​

​

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”​

So clearly there is indeed a common sense of how one escapes spiritual death and torment in these three traditions--that the burden of evidence of faith is always upon the believer to prove through his/her actions toward others.

God is not found in any religion, God is the term that religions use to describe the scientific reason for life which was clearly evident thousands of years before the DNA code was unmask as a the most complicated code in the known universe

 

[JimBowie1958]

You left out the word how, and you dumped useless thoughts on the World that reveal a futile existence.
Again everything we do is part of our programming, what we need to see is the purpose then all is sensible. At this point the only thing that is for sure is that some must leave in order so that some may return or move on

The fact that I can shift the focus of my mind on any stimuli or thought I choose to is proof enough of Free Will, dude.

 

[JimBowie1958]

God is not found in any religion, God is the term that religions use to describe the scientific reason for life which was clearly evident thousands of years before the DNA code was unmask as a the most complicated code in the known universe

God is found in religion, in churches, in congregations meeting at home, or in the forests or high desert mesas.

God surrounds us all; you just have to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[PoliticalChic]

If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless

There is no ABSOLUTe evidence that leaves one with no decision regarding faith, but there is evidence.

It is similar to how astronomers used to look at the wobbles of outer planets looking for a planet behind that one.

The evidence was never 100% till the actual planet was found, but the gravitational and orbital evidence was fairly accurate, with only few errors involved.

That may be, but there is nothing that proves that one's god is the right one. For all that the Muslim know's the Christians are right, and a Hades of some sort awaits. For all that the Christian knows, Elah/Allah will be flipping the Christians over on his barbeque.

And these are but two personifications of the same god. Perhaps the pagan Hebrews were right to make offerings to Ashtoreth, before the Patriarchalists overthrew their society. Between these, no one can decide, except by their own feelings.

1. They are certainly not the same God.
“I have been commanded to wage war against mankind till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, …and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf ….”

Know whose quote that is?

Muhammad bin Abdullah (570-632)

It is written, incidentally, in Leviticus, "Love your neighbor as yourself, I am God." I, God, tell you to be decent to other people.



2. "If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless"

I believe you have an excellent point there.

If the Bible made a definite statement that there is such a judgment it would obviate the central gift to mankind: free will.

Free will and the intelligence to judge our actions are left to the individual. Perhaps that is why evil continues to exist….an individual doesn’t know for a fact that they will be held responsible for their actions. But it they did.....

“If people knew that if they acted badly in this world they would be immediately punished, there would no longer be free will (even career criminals don’t commit crimes in the presence of police).” Dennis Prager

The Arabic word for "God" is Allah, even for those who are believers in Christianity. There are indeed parellel verses in the scriptures of each religion:

"Piety does not lie in turning your face to East or West: Piety lies in believing in God, the Last Day and the angels, the Scriptures and the prophets, and disbursing your wealth out of love for God among your kin and the orphans, the wayfarers and mendicants, freeing the slaves" -- The Cow - 2:177 (Sura: 2, Verse: 177)​

The Old Testament has the parallel

'Whoever despises his neighbor is a sinner, but blessed is he who is generous to the poor." -- Proverbs 14:21​

And the same sense of justice in the New Testament:

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’​

​

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’​

​

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’​

​

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’​

​

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”​

So clearly there is indeed a common sense of how one escapes spiritual death and torment in these three traditions--that the burden of evidence of faith is always upon the believer to prove through his/her actions toward others.

Clean off your specs, old timer....


They are certainly not the same God.
“I have been commanded to wage war against mankind till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, …and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf ….”

Know whose quote that is?

Muhammad bin Abdullah (570-632)

It is written, incidentally, in Leviticus, "Love your neighbor as yourself, I am God." I, God, tell you to be decent to other people.

 

[esalla]

You left out the word how, and you dumped useless thoughts on the World that reveal a futile existence.
Again everything we do is part of our programming, what we need to see is the purpose then all is sensible. At this point the only thing that is for sure is that some must leave in order so that some may return or move on

The fact that I can shift the focus of my mind on any stimuli or thought I choose to is proof enough of Free Will, dude.

You are assuming that what you are doing was not the intended purpose, if the creator wanted all solvable problems solved then lots of minds doing different things is the only path.

You are what your genetics makes you, there is no way out. When you struggle you are doing as intended as in the struggle answers are found.

 

[JimBowie1958]

They are certainly not the same God.

The Greeks believed that the sun was a fiery chariot pulled across the sky each day.

That is a different CONCEPT OF OUR SUN, but both my theory and the Greeks theory are about THE SAME SUN.

It is the same sort of thing with the Creator. We have different concepts, but we are all still talking about the Creator, the SAME Creator.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You are assuming that what you are doing was not the intended purpose, if the creator wanted all solvable problems solved then lots of minds doing different things is the only path.
You are what your genetics makes you, there is no way out. When you struggle you are doing as intended as in the struggle answers are found.

So you just ignore my example of the ability of the mind to focus independently, and restate your same proposition.

No, we are not merely what our genetics makes us, for there is also conditioning and social resources and then of course moral Free Will to affect us as well, with the caveat that Free Will is not a resource but us CHOSING what we will follow.

 

[PoliticalChic]

They are certainly not the same God.

The Greeks believed that the sun was a fiery chariot pulled across the sky each day.

That is a different CONCEPT OF OUR SUN, but both my theory and the Greeks theory are about THE SAME SUN.

It is the same sort of thing with the Creator. We have different concepts, but we are all still talking about the Creator, the SAME Creator.

"but we are all still talking about the Creator, the SAME Creator. "

I provided the quotes that clearly delineate the difference between the Judeo-Christian God, and Islam's version.
They are in no way the same.


Ineluctably, political discussions touch on some relationship to God…as in:

"It is a great irony of communism that those who did not believe in God believed that godlike knowledge could be concentrated at a central point. It was believed that government could be omnipotent and omniscient. And in order to justify the idea that all lives should be determined by a single plan, the concomitant tendency of communist regimes was to deify the leader- whether Lenin, Stalin, Mao, or Kim Il-sung."
Tom Bethell, "The Noblest Triumph," p. 144

But, do Stalin, or Mao, or even the one Liberals called God, Obama, have the necessary defining characteristics?





2. Looking up the definition… “the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe”
Definition of GOD

But that’s not enough.


“An ancient proverb teaches, “To spare the ravening leopard is an act of injustice to the sheep.” That is why the Rabbis spoke of mercy and justice as the two necessary attributes of God—and therefore of a decent society.”
Dennis Prager




And I found this on the board:

“Omnipotence means all-powerful. Monotheistic theologians regard God as having supreme power. This means God can do what he wants. It means he is not subject to physical limitations like man is. Being omnipotent, God has power over wind, water, gravity, physics, etc. God's power is infinite, or limitless."

Still not enough for what is generally accepted as that definition.



Cave Cave Deus Videt ("Beware, Beware, God Sees"). Hieronymus Bosch, in the painting 'The Seven Deadly Sins'

"The Seven Deadly Sins and the Four Last Things" is a painting that has traditionally been attributed to Hieronymus Bosch, …
Four small circles, detailing the four last things — "Death of the Sinner", "Judgment", "Hell" and "Glory" — surround a larger circle in which the seven deadly sins are depicted: wrath at the bottom, then (proceeding clockwise) envy, greed, gluttony, sloth, extravagance (later replaced with lust), and pride, in scenes from life rather than in allegorical representations of the sins.
At the centre of the large circle, which is said to represent the eye of God, is a "pupil" in which Christ can be seen emerging from his tomb. Below this image is the Latin inscription Cave Cave Deus Videt ("Beware, Beware, God Sees").”
Hieronymus Bosch «The Seven Deadly Sins and the Four Last Things» around 1500, Museo del Prado, Madrid

See the painting here: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Four Last Things - Wikipedia



All-seeing is an essential element in the definition of God, as it reminds believers that what they do, good or evil, will not go unnoticed.

• But the best job I found was in Dennis Prager’s new book, “The Rational Bible.”
  
  “…a Creator of the universe…. nothing preexisted Genesis 1:1. … only God can create from nothing.
  
  …everything—with the exception of God—has a beginning. Prior to God’s creating, there was nothing. That includes time. Thanks to Einstein, we know that time, too, had a beginning. God, therefore, also created time, which means God exists not only outside of nature but outside of time. God precedes time and will outlive time.
  
  …unlike pre-Bible creation stories, there is complete silence regarding a birth of the deity. The God of Genesis 1:1, the God of the Bible, is not born….a god who is completely separate from nature—because God created nature. God, for the first time, is not part of nature.
  
  
  4.So, if the basic description of God is that He is a creator….’the Creator’….it puts atheists at this disadvantage. None can deny that everything is here, has been created, and even atheistic science calls for a beginning, that Big Bang…..
  
  …..then, what was there before the Big Bang?
  
  
  At least religious folks have an explanation….
  The Rational Bible: Genesis by Dennis Prager -
  
  
  
  
  Is there any basis to doubt a Creator???

 

[Agit8r]

If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless

There is no ABSOLUTe evidence that leaves one with no decision regarding faith, but there is evidence.

It is similar to how astronomers used to look at the wobbles of outer planets looking for a planet behind that one.

The evidence was never 100% till the actual planet was found, but the gravitational and orbital evidence was fairly accurate, with only few errors involved.

That may be, but there is nothing that proves that one's god is the right one. For all that the Muslim know's the Christians are right, and a Hades of some sort awaits. For all that the Christian knows, Elah/Allah will be flipping the Christians over on his barbeque.

And these are but two personifications of the same god. Perhaps the pagan Hebrews were right to make offerings to Ashtoreth, before the Patriarchalists overthrew their society. Between these, no one can decide, except by their own feelings.

1. They are certainly not the same God.
“I have been commanded to wage war against mankind till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, …and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf ….”

Know whose quote that is?

Muhammad bin Abdullah (570-632)

It is written, incidentally, in Leviticus, "Love your neighbor as yourself, I am God." I, God, tell you to be decent to other people.



2. "If there were evidence for god, faith would be meaningless"

I believe you have an excellent point there.

If the Bible made a definite statement that there is such a judgment it would obviate the central gift to mankind: free will.

Free will and the intelligence to judge our actions are left to the individual. Perhaps that is why evil continues to exist….an individual doesn’t know for a fact that they will be held responsible for their actions. But it they did.....

“If people knew that if they acted badly in this world they would be immediately punished, there would no longer be free will (even career criminals don’t commit crimes in the presence of police).” Dennis Prager

The Arabic word for "God" is Allah, even for those who are believers in Christianity. There are indeed parellel verses in the scriptures of each religion:

"Piety does not lie in turning your face to East or West: Piety lies in believing in God, the Last Day and the angels, the Scriptures and the prophets, and disbursing your wealth out of love for God among your kin and the orphans, the wayfarers and mendicants, freeing the slaves" -- The Cow - 2:177 (Sura: 2, Verse: 177)​

The Old Testament has the parallel

'Whoever despises his neighbor is a sinner, but blessed is he who is generous to the poor." -- Proverbs 14:21​

And the same sense of justice in the New Testament:

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’​

​

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’​

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29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’​

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30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’​

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31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”​

So clearly there is indeed a common sense of how one escapes spiritual death and torment in these three traditions--that the burden of evidence of faith is always upon the believer to prove through his/her actions toward others.

Clean off your specs, old timer....


They are certainly not the same God.
“I have been commanded to wage war against mankind till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, …and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf ….”

Know whose quote that is?

Muhammad bin Abdullah (570-632)

It is written, incidentally, in Leviticus, "Love your neighbor as yourself, I am God." I, God, tell you to be decent to other people.

Of course it's the same god. Don't be silly

 

[ding]

You are assuming that what you are doing was not the intended purpose, if the creator wanted all solvable problems solved then lots of minds doing different things is the only path.
You are what your genetics makes you, there is no way out. When you struggle you are doing as intended as in the struggle answers are found.

So you just ignore my example of the ability of the mind to focus independently, and restate your same proposition.

No, we are not merely what our genetics makes us, for there is also conditioning and social resources and then of course moral Free Will to affect us as well, with the caveat that Free Will is not a resource but us CHOSING what we will follow.

It is shades of grey. Some people do have a natural tendency for certain behaviors. But that does not mean that others cannot overcome their natural tendencies and do great things.

And vice versa.

 

[JimBowie1958]

They are certainly not the same God.

The Greeks believed that the sun was a fiery chariot pulled across the sky each day.

That is a different CONCEPT OF OUR SUN, but both my theory and the Greeks theory are about THE SAME SUN.

It is the same sort of thing with the Creator. We have different concepts, but we are all still talking about the Creator, the SAME Creator.

"but we are all still talking about the Creator, the SAME Creator. "

I provided the quotes that clearly delineate the difference between the Judeo-Christian God, and Islam's version.
They are in no way the same.


Ineluctably, political discussions touch on some relationship to God…as in:

"It is a great irony of communism that those who did not believe in God believed that godlike knowledge could be concentrated at a central point. It was believed that government could be omnipotent and omniscient. And in order to justify the idea that all lives should be determined by a single plan, the concomitant tendency of communist regimes was to deify the leader- whether Lenin, Stalin, Mao, or Kim Il-sung."
Tom Bethell, "The Noblest Triumph," p. 144

But, do Stalin, or Mao, or even the one Liberals called God, Obama, have the necessary defining characteristics?





2. Looking up the definition… “the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe”
Definition of GOD

But that’s not enough.


“An ancient proverb teaches, “To spare the ravening leopard is an act of injustice to the sheep.” That is why the Rabbis spoke of mercy and justice as the two necessary attributes of God—and therefore of a decent society.”
Dennis Prager




And I found this on the board:

“Omnipotence means all-powerful. Monotheistic theologians regard God as having supreme power. This means God can do what he wants. It means he is not subject to physical limitations like man is. Being omnipotent, God has power over wind, water, gravity, physics, etc. God's power is infinite, or limitless."

Still not enough for what is generally accepted as that definition.



Cave Cave Deus Videt ("Beware, Beware, God Sees"). Hieronymus Bosch, in the painting 'The Seven Deadly Sins'

"The Seven Deadly Sins and the Four Last Things" is a painting that has traditionally been attributed to Hieronymus Bosch, …
Four small circles, detailing the four last things — "Death of the Sinner", "Judgment", "Hell" and "Glory" — surround a larger circle in which the seven deadly sins are depicted: wrath at the bottom, then (proceeding clockwise) envy, greed, gluttony, sloth, extravagance (later replaced with lust), and pride, in scenes from life rather than in allegorical representations of the sins.
At the centre of the large circle, which is said to represent the eye of God, is a "pupil" in which Christ can be seen emerging from his tomb. Below this image is the Latin inscription Cave Cave Deus Videt ("Beware, Beware, God Sees").”
Hieronymus Bosch «The Seven Deadly Sins and the Four Last Things» around 1500, Museo del Prado, Madrid

See the painting here: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Four Last Things - Wikipedia



All-seeing is an essential element in the definition of God, as it reminds believers that what they do, good or evil, will not go unnoticed.

• But the best job I found was in Dennis Prager’s new book, “The Rational Bible.”
  
  “…a Creator of the universe…. nothing preexisted Genesis 1:1. … only God can create from nothing.
  
  …everything—with the exception of God—has a beginning. Prior to God’s creating, there was nothing. That includes time. Thanks to Einstein, we know that time, too, had a beginning. God, therefore, also created time, which means God exists not only outside of nature but outside of time. God precedes time and will outlive time.
  
  …unlike pre-Bible creation stories, there is complete silence regarding a birth of the deity. The God of Genesis 1:1, the God of the Bible, is not born….a god who is completely separate from nature—because God created nature. God, for the first time, is not part of nature.
  
  
  4.So, if the basic description of God is that He is a creator….’the Creator’….it puts atheists at this disadvantage. None can deny that everything is here, has been created, and even atheistic science calls for a beginning, that Big Bang…..
  
  …..then, what was there before the Big Bang?
  
  
  At least religious folks have an explanation….
  The Rational Bible: Genesis by Dennis Prager -
  
  
  
  
  Is there any basis to doubt a Creator???

I agree with all that and the Judeo-Christian Creator is different from each concept as well, we believe in a Trinity and Jews believe in a monotheistic God.

The Concepts are diffferent but the Creator we refer to is still the same one, like the Greeks with their notion of what the Sun was, the concept is different but it is the same Sun we both refer to.