There ARE honest people on the Left.

[Doug1943]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying both sides are the same, or that the democrat party hasn't been taken over by awful people. Republicans, while useless and not overly concerned with Americans, they have not gone off the deep end. When I say it would be nice to talk to people who don't agree, I'm not talking about people who want to hurt kids or sick the government on political enemies. I'm talking about policy stuff like tax rates, foreign affairs, trade, ect. I'm glad pknopp and Doug1943 actually talked to each other instead of calling each other names. That is the way it should be.

Exactly! PKnopp either hopes to convert me to his side, or at least to weaken my belief in my own side -- he's not a softy, he's a political fighter. Perhaps he also hopes to convince people who read these threads and who are bored by childish insults, but want to read the back-and-forth argument of committed people who have something to say. Just like me.

Hollywood has conditioned us to think in terms of Pure Good people, and Pure Evil people. It's not a dastardly plot, it's just entertainment -- it's what bards were doing before Gilgamesh -- usually with a single powerful Hero to rescue the Good People. It's what sells.

What kids see on a screen -- in color, with pretty girls and handsome men! car chases! guns! -- makes a hundred times more impression on them than what some teacher can tell them in a classroom, assuming that they even learn about the complexity of society in classrooms nowadays. (We didn't when I was a kid either.)

I should say that this has changed a bit over the years, though. There are some really excellent movies and TV series -- Like Clint Eastwood's Flags of our Fathers, and Letters from Iwo Jima.
[ Flags of Our Fathers (film) - Wikipedia
Letters from Iwo Jima - Wikipedia ]

and the Sopranos TV series and Better Call Saul sequels.

But we're in a cold civil war, and in wars, it's inevitable that the enemy will be demonized. (And, to give the Leftist Demon his due, it's the rational kernal of the Left's objection to patriotism.)

 

[PeterPilot]

It's important for patriots to realize that the Left is not monolithic. There are free thinkers there, classical liberals (not in the free market sense, but in the 1960s sense, ie pro-free speech), Leftists who have not been pulled into the neo-con corporate globalist orbit. All human life is there.
One such person is Naomi Wolf, who was a leading feminist theorist, an advisor to Bill Clinton and Al Gore ... certainly an enemy of the Right. But ... she is a deeply honest person, with a strong sense of personal morality, and the courage to defy the popular opinion of her friends. Her Wiki bio is here -- her enemies have dredged up every bit of negative trivia they can find, but who she is comes through very clear: [ Naomi Wolf - Wikipedia ]

She bought into the Jan 6 narrative at first. But then
... read her story here. I've excerpted the first few paragraphs: The comments are also interesting.
[ Dear Conservatives, I Apologize ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dear Conservatives, I Apologize
My "Team" was Taken in By Full-Spectrum Propaganda
Dr Naomi Wolf
Mar 9
There is no way to avoid this moment. The formal letter of apology. From me. To Conservatives and to those who “put America first” everywhere.

It’s tempting to sweep this confrontation with my own gullibility under the rug — to “move on” without ever acknowledging that I was duped, and that as a result I made mistakes in judgement, and that these mistakes, multiplied by the tens of thousands and millions on the part of people just like me, hurt millions of other people like you all, in existential ways.

But that erasure of personal and public history would be wrong.

I owe you a full-throated apology.

I believed a farrago of lies. And, as a result of these lies, and my credulity — and the credulity of people similarly situated to me - many conservatives’ reputations are being tarnished, on false bases.

The proximate cause of this letter of apology is the airing, two nights ago, of excepts from tens of thousands of hours of security camera footage from the United States Capitol taken on Jan 6, 2021. ..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Her whole essay is well worth reading: she goes into the history of protest a the Capitol ... it's very interesting!

[ Dear Conservatives, I Apologize ]

You're right, and I've admired Naomi for many years now, an honest and intelligent woman with the courage to admit she was fooled. That makes her very rare.

That said, recall that another honest, brave and intelligent woman named Tulsi Gabbard was forced by her conscience to resign from the Democrat Party.

Even with RFK running, the future does not look bright for the woke and criminal Democrat Party.

 

[Doug1943]

The problem with the Confederate flags is they're already on the wrong side of the road. You can't wave that flag one day and then shout "U-S-A" the next, the Confederate flags are symbols of separating from the US, of killing US soldiers.

The central, overriding issue of the Civil War was slavery. If the South refused to give it up, there would have been a Civil War anyway, even if they hadn't tried to separate. They would have had to have been forced to give it up.

Because we associate secession with being pro-slavery, we get the issues mixed up.

So, let's start from first principles: If all of the people of a geographic region of a country -- any country, not necessarily the US -- does not want to be part of the country any more, and wants to become independent, should it have that right, in principle?

There are at least three things which complicate the matter

(1) Technical problems: who gets the national government's movable property in the region that wants to leave, should it do so? What about national debts and pensions? These are things which can be settled, although they will provide lots of work for lawyers.
:
(2) Military considerations: let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the separation of this region will have no negative military consequences for the country it's separating from. It won't open up a geographic strategic weak spot. The separating country will not ally with the enemies of the country it wants to leave.

(3) 'Remainers': I said 'all of the people' in the region, but in real life, it's never 'all'. (Even in the South, there were pro-Unionists, usually forcibly suppressed, eg the German immigrants to Texas who were refugees from the 1848 uprisings in Europe). For the moment, let's set that problem aside.

A fourth consideration, really a debater's point is the size of the region. Let's assume it's substantial, 'nation-sized' -- in other words, it's not a farmer and his family on 200 acres declaring independence.

So the question is: should the people in a region be forced, forever, to remain within a country they no longer want to be part of? Does 'consent of the governed' not apply?

Example: suppose -- a Leftist's nightmare -- Donald Trump wins the 2024 election, and various circumstances make it appear that the Republicans will remain in power for many subsequent elections, with large majorities in the House and Senate, appointing all the retiring Federal Judges -- and the entire population of California, Oregon and Washington want to separate and become their own nation -- perhaps without their 'Red' eastern counties. They offer to retain a strong defensive alliance with the remaining US -- just as the US and Canada jointly operate the NORAD air-space defense system.

Suppose further that this is a settled, serious, demand, not a passing emotional response to a Trump victory. (For an example of how this could happen, see Scotland in the United Kingdom, especially after the majority there decided to leae the European Union. When the Scottish National Party was first formed in 1934, it was a joke. It didn't even elect anyone to the British Parliament until 1967. Now it's the largest party in Scotland, and runs the place.

I would support their right to leave. I wouldn't advocate it -- it's like the right to divorce. If they really want to leave, and there are no military implications, and the status of 'remainers' is set aside (which it can't be in real life -- it's a separate argument, i.e. how small must a minority be before it should not block the settled desires of the majority?) -- if these things were true, I would support the of the 'Left Coast' to separate.

How about you?

 

[Doug1943]

You're right, and I've admired Naomi for many years now, an honest and intelligent woman with the courage to admit she was fooled. That makes her very rare.

That said, recall that another honest, brave and intelligent woman named Tulsi Gabbard was forced by her conscience to resign from the Democrat Party.

Even with RFK running, the future does not look bright for the woke and criminal Democrat Party.

Yes, I admire Tulsi Gabbard as well. In a perverse way, Lisa Cheney is her symmetric opposite: I admire Cheney's courage for standing up for what she believes in, but not her tactical wisdom, assuming she is still some sort of conservative.

She actually raises several important issues which patriots need to have a serious discussion about: foreign policy, where she is a non-interventionist; social-economic policy, where she is not a free-market fundamentalist; on those two things I agree. She also supports gay marriage, and while I disagree with her there, I think it's an issue we should just lay to rest for a while.

 

[PeterPilot]

Yes, I admire Tulsi Gabbard as well. In a perverse way, Lisa Cheney is her symmetric opposite: I admire Cheney's courage for standing up for what she believes in, but not her tactical wisdom, assuming she is still some sort of conservative.

She actually raises several important issues which patriots need to have a serious discussion about: foreign policy, where she is a non-interventionist; social-economic policy, where she is not a free-market fundamentalist; on those two things I agree. She also supports gay marriage, and while I disagree with her there, I think it's an issue we should just lay to rest for a while.

Liz Cheney is the daughter of Dick Cheney, a traitor and war criminal of the highest order. Her deception and treason regarding Jan 6 shows the wisdom of the old adage The acorn does not fall far from the tree.

After a proper trial, I would happily volunteer to be the hangman for her and her father.

 

[mamooth]

Although, every progressive publication I know of -- from the Nation magazine, to New Republic, even to Teen Vogue -- carries sympathetic articles on AntiFa.

That's because opposing fascism is _good_. See: WW2.

None of them criticize their violence against my side, which has included cold-blooded murder.

The cold-blooded murder is being done by the right. They do so want to start their holy race war, hence their cop-killing rampage. Antifa has killed no one, while right wing terrorists leave a trail of bodies.

And we see mainstream American progressivism (I used this word to distinguish them from old-fashioned liberals who still believe in free speech)

The censorship lust all comes from the right. The left backs free speech, the right opposes free speech. See, for example, Elon Musk. He whined about censorship that didn't exist, then went full-blown censor when he got control.

now adopting 'hate America' ideology, like Critical Race Theory.

That's certainly one fiction the right uses to justify their current book-burning and jailing-for-thoughtcrimes crusade.

My side may, in many cases, have a shaky grasp of the importance of the Rule of Law, Freedom of Speech, etc ... I'm quite aware of this. But they're not the ones running Hollywood (from where most Americans get what they know about the world), being teachers or professors, running the mainstream media.

No, conservatives do run the mainstream media, which is entirely owned by very conservative large corporations. That's why the media puts out a constant barrage of right-wing spin. That media propaganda is what the right counts on to keep their message alive.

And the illiberal -- in the original sense of the word -- reactions from people on my side are just that: reactions.
Reactions to things like this: [ Mayor Suspends Pledge of Allegiance at Town Meetings Over 'Direct Threats' ]

So the right wanted a forced patriotism display, and then got enraged to the point of threats when others said no. I don't see how that makes the left look bad.

 

[mamooth]

True. The Democratic base just hides their violent racism and degenerate kiddie grooming fantasies

This is an example of how so much of the right is composed of absolute garbage human beings.

They know they're lying about the "grooming" thing, but they do it anyways, for exactly the same reasons that the Nazis made up stories of Jews attacking children.

Fascist tactics don't change. We stomped fascist filth like Dudley in WW2, we'll do it again.

 

[Doug1943]

Sorry, but Naomi Wolf is nothing but a curiosity

I applaud her honesty even if it does not make up for all the lies coming from the left

I believe you are mistaken here. 'The Left' is not a monolithic block, just as we are not. We're in a battle of ideas -- and when someone in the enemy camp says, "Actually, those guys are correct on this issue", that's very important for us. She can reach people we cannot, people who would just dismiss us as partisans acting reflexively.

Look how the Left has used Liz Cheney. They're right to do that. We need to do the same.

 

[ActionJackson]

It's important for patriots to realize that the Left is not monolithic. There are free thinkers there, classical liberals (not in the free market sense, but in the 1960s sense, ie pro-free speech), Leftists who have not been pulled into the neo-con corporate globalist orbit. All human life is there.
One such person is Naomi Wolf, who was a leading feminist theorist, an advisor to Bill Clinton and Al Gore ... certainly an enemy of the Right. But ... she is a deeply honest person, with a strong sense of personal morality, and the courage to defy the popular opinion of her friends. Her Wiki bio is here -- her enemies have dredged up every bit of negative trivia they can find, but who she is comes through very clear: [ Naomi Wolf - Wikipedia ]

She bought into the Jan 6 narrative at first. But then
... read her story here. I've excerpted the first few paragraphs: The comments are also interesting.
[ Dear Conservatives, I Apologize ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dear Conservatives, I Apologize
My "Team" was Taken in By Full-Spectrum Propaganda
Dr Naomi Wolf
Mar 9
There is no way to avoid this moment. The formal letter of apology. From me. To Conservatives and to those who “put America first” everywhere.

It’s tempting to sweep this confrontation with my own gullibility under the rug — to “move on” without ever acknowledging that I was duped, and that as a result I made mistakes in judgement, and that these mistakes, multiplied by the tens of thousands and millions on the part of people just like me, hurt millions of other people like you all, in existential ways.

But that erasure of personal and public history would be wrong.

I owe you a full-throated apology.

I believed a farrago of lies. And, as a result of these lies, and my credulity — and the credulity of people similarly situated to me - many conservatives’ reputations are being tarnished, on false bases.

The proximate cause of this letter of apology is the airing, two nights ago, of excepts from tens of thousands of hours of security camera footage from the United States Capitol taken on Jan 6, 2021. ..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Her whole essay is well worth reading: she goes into the history of protest a the Capitol ... it's very interesting!

[ Dear Conservatives, I Apologize ]

Although I disagree with Jimmy Dore and Bill Maher on several issues ... I do believe they have the courage to stand against all of this "woke" nonsense and call B.S. when they see it. I can respect that. I'll watch their shows LONG before I watch the idiots at the Young Turks or any similar corporate shills say whatever the highest bidder pays them to say.

 

[theHawk]

Is it possible for a person to disagree with you and be honest?

All lefties do is lie. How can they ever be honest?

 

[ActionJackson]

This is an example of how so much of the right is composed of absolute garbage human beings.

They know they're lying about the "grooming" thing, but they do it anyways, for exactly the same reasons that the Nazis made up stories of Jews attacking children.

Fascist tactics don't change. We stomped fascist filth like Dudley in WW2, we'll do it again.

WATCH: Drag queen admits he's 'grooming' children at story hour events - LifeSite

'We are trying to groom the next generation.'

www.lifesitenews.com

 

[Mac1958]

All lefties do is lie. How can they ever be honest?

There's plenty of liars and bullshitters across the spectrum. Honesty is not a function of ideology.

If you really, seriously don't know that, then you're willfully blind.

 

[ActionJackson]

There's plenty of liars and bullshitters across the spectrum. Honesty is not a function of ideology.

If you really, seriously don't know that, then you're willfully blind.

Generally speaking, conservatives are more honest than Libtards. And no ... I don't use the title "Republican" as a synonym for "Conservative." Two very different animals. But even Republicans are more honest than Democrats are. Biden and Pelosi have proven time and again that the prerequisite to become a member of the DimWit Party is to know how to lie as a matter of daily routine.

 

[Doug1943]

That's because opposing fascism is _good_. See: WW2.


The cold-blooded murder is being done by the right. They do so want to start their holy race war, hence their cop-killing rampage. Antifa has killed no one, while right wing terrorists leave a trail of bodies.


The censorship lust all comes from the right. The left backs free speech, the right opposes free speech. See, for example, Elon Musk. He whined about censorship that didn't exist, then went full-blown censor when he got control.


That's certainly one fiction the right uses to justify their current book-burning and jailing-for-thoughtcrimes crusade.


No, conservatives do run the mainstream media, which is entirely owned by very conservative large corporations. That's why the media puts out a constant barrage of right-wing spin. That media propaganda is what the right counts on to keep their message alive.


So the right wanted a forced patriotism display, and then got enraged to the point of threats when others said no. I don't see how that makes the left look bad.

You sound either like a rightwinger pretending to be a completely uninformed Leftist, or ... a completely uninformed Leftist ... almost Orwellian in denying the evidence which is available to anyone who pays attention..

Let's get concrete: did, or did not, an AntiFa supporter shoot dead, in cold blood, Aaron Danielson in Portland?
Did, or did not, the AntiFa members there laugh and cheer when they heard about it?
Did, or did not, certain professors post their approval of the murder?

Did, or did not, students at Cornell, and Stanford, recently disrupt meetings where there were conservative speakers, preventing them from going on? (These are just the most recent examples, at major colleges).

As for the media being run by conservatives ... I think you have been awakened from a Rip Van Winkle 40-year coma.

But there is a grain of truth in what you say: the big corporations are not about to become socialist and turn themselves over to their workers. They are thoroughly capitalist. It's just that the capitalists who run them, who are not stupid, have figured out that the best way to stay in charge of things is to be 'woke', which costs them nothing.

There are reasons for this: one of them is that they are thoroughly globalist -- capitalism always tries to find new markets, and to find ways to cut costs of which labor is the main one. As they export the jobs of their American workers overseas, and import illegal (and therefore cheap) labor, they have found that they can completely disarm 'the Left' by adopting its culutral fads, in particular its turn to identity politics. There are some Leftists who understand this, but not many.

That's not the only reason for their going 'woke', but it's an important one.

You sound like some sort of socialist. You might like to take a look at this book, by a leftwing socialist who knows what's happening:

IDiots: How Identity Politics is Destroying the Left
by Katie Roche
The rise of identity politics in the past decade has been impossible to miss. Issues such as race, sexuality and gender identity have enveloped the left in the UK and the USA. Politicians, big business and celebrities have all got behind these causes. While this might appear progressive, there are many negative consequences of identity politics. Perfect for the general reader, as well as those who wish to study this topic in-depth, this book offers an analysis of the impact of identity politics from a socialist perspective. It will examine how identity politics has damaged the left by analysing examples of identity politics in action from both sides of the Atlantic. And it tells us why it’s time for the left to return to its class-based roots.Katie Roche is an author, blogger and political activist. She has an undergraduate degree in politics and a master’s degree in social research. This is her third book. To see the latest updates from Katie, visit her website at www.KatieRoche.Net
https:// www.amazon.com/IDiots-Identity-Politics-Destroying-Left-ebook/dp/B08S31WQLQ/

 

[theHawk]

There's plenty of liars and bullshitters across the spectrum. Honesty is not a function of ideology.

If you really, seriously don't know that, then you're willfully blind.

We call out Republicans that lie all the time. The Romney’s and McConnells, the RINOs.

 

[ActionJackson]

We call out Republicans that lie all the time. The Romney’s and McConnells, the RINOs.

True. Conservatives call out liars on both sides. Liberals call out liars on the right and embrace the liars on the left. It's why we call the Dims a Party of hypocrites.

 

[Mac-7]

I believe you are mistaken here. 'The Left' is not a monolithic block, just as we are not. We're in a battle of ideas -- and when someone in the enemy camp says, "Actually, those guys are correct on this issue", that's very important for us. She can reach people we cannot, people who would just dismiss us as partisans acting reflexively.

Look how the Left has used Liz Cheney. They're right to do that. We need to do the same.

A few outliers do not represent the whole

Lefties are liars and cheaters

And did I mention perverts who want to corrupt small children?

 

[Doug1943]

Liz Cheney is the daughter of Dick Cheney, a traitor and war criminal of the highest order. Her deception and treason regarding Jan 6 shows the wisdom of the old adage The acorn does not fall far from the tree.

After a proper trial, I would happily volunteer to be the hangman for her and her father.

Hmmm.... with that sort of thinking, you must be contemplating a pretty extensive blood-purge of the whole country. And why do you say that about Dick Cheney? It was the Left who hated him, not the Right.

 

[Doug1943]

There's little value in "free" thinking if you're not very good at thinking in the first place. Wolf jumped the shark long ago and now resides with Rudy in never never land.

When did she 'jump the shark'?

 

[DudleySmith]

This is an example of how so much of the right is composed of absolute garbage human beings.

They know they're lying about the "grooming" thing, but they do it anyways, for exactly the same reasons that the Nazis made up stories of Jews attacking children.

Fascist tactics don't change. We stomped fascist filth like Dudley in WW2, we'll do it again.

^^^ Typical example of a faggot commie and their sociopathic ranting. Here is an example of where these lice get their 'talking points'. Read the whole issue, including the rants from yet another 'GAy Rights Activist' and commie kiddie raper David Thorstad, who considers his fellow commie kiddie raper Harry Hay a 'Great Hero', as does mammarygoof here does.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi_gPSq5JX-AhVUnWoFHfjNCRIQFnoECBUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.marxists.org%2Fhistory%2Fetol%2Fnewspape%2Fworkersvanguard%2F1994%2F0602_10_06_1994.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3EGQmJmuhiuBzdXq-FCu6X

It's a pdf file of an issue of Worker's Vanguard from 1994, when all the faggots were sniveling over Jesse Helm's outing the ILGA as a NAMBLA front and claiimng it wasn't, lying as usual; if they didn't represent faggot dreams they wouldn't have been the oldest organization in the ILGA at the time, and of course they get the usual ATTA BOIZ from their fellow commie scum. Read the whole thing, especially the two articles advocating kiddie rape, one written by one of the NAMBLA founders itself.

Same rhetoric, they just hide under different names these days, like 'Democratic Party'.

Faggots gushing over good old Dave The Kiddie Raper:

Former Gay Activists Alliance President David Thorstad Dies at 79

David Thorstad, who co-founded or ran some early LGBTQ groups following the Stonewall riots in 1969 that are seen as marking the start of the modern LGBTQ

gaycitynews.com

lol they paint the sick freak as some sort of noble humanitarian.

The University Of Minnesota has ennobled the gimp as well; they probably have a statue of it somewhere, I'm guessing.

Collection: David Thorstad Collection | University of Minnesota Archival Collections Guides

archives.lib.umn.edu