Theocracy In America--Who wants this?

[KittenKoder]

And I said the REASON Christianity is separate from state is because CHRISTIAN founding fathers thought that was the best way to protect our religious freedom.

All of this is of course completely off track and is a nice diversion from the fact that you haven't answered the question I asked you some time back....which is define "Christian extremism" and then provide some proof that Christians are trying to inject Christianity into the government.

Nice sidestep there.

Then if we agree, why are you attacking my arguments?

 

[sky dancer]

Do your homework AliBaba. Maybe the 40 thieves can help you.

 

[AllieBaba]

We don't agree. You continue to assert that the founding fathers were not Christians for the most part, and you refuse to acknowledge that separation of church and state are Christian precepts. YOu also refuse to define "Christian extremism" and explain exactly how Christianity is attempting to insinuate its way into government.

In addition, you and sky have both insisted that non-traditional families are just as viable as traditional ones, and the proof puts the lie to that statement.

So we don't agree.

 

[sky dancer]

None of us is going to sit back and let you and your Christian dominionist friends make Christianity the state religion of the United States with your phoney arguments that the Founding Fathers were Christians.

The Constitution does not contain the word God. The Founding Fathers were Deists and they formed the Constitution differently than the Puritans envisioned it 150 years previously.

Yes. Foster families are viable families. Adoptive families are viable families. Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist families are viable.

Step families are viable. One parent families are viable. Families with gay and lesbian parents are viable families.

You may hate us, but we don't hate you. We just want the same rights and civil protections that you enjoy.

 

[KittenKoder]

We don't agree. You continue to assert that the founding fathers were not Christians for the most part, and you refuse to acknowledge that separation of church and state are Christian precepts. YOu also refuse to define "Christian extremism" and explain exactly how Christianity is attempting to insinuate its way into government.

In addition, you and KK have both insisted that non-traditional families are just as viable as traditional ones, and the proof puts the lie to that statement.

So we don't agree.

Okay, since the second part is a completely different thread and obviously posted just because you want an argument I will ignore it, as for the first part, you need to reread my posts (all the words not just your usual few). I said that a majority of them WERE christian but that they founded the government on decency not on their beliefs, including that they wanted freedom of religion so they could keep theirs without the chance of persecution (which you repeated yourself a couple of times). So yes, we do agree, you just don't care because of your own hatred and bias so you instead wish to maintain the illusion that I am your enemy. This is what is seriously wrong with you, you do NOT learn.

 

[ABikerSailor]

We don't agree. You continue to assert that the founding fathers were not Christians for the most part, and you refuse to acknowledge that separation of church and state are Christian precepts. YOu also refuse to define "Christian extremism" and explain exactly how Christianity is attempting to insinuate its way into government.

In addition, you and sky have both insisted that non-traditional families are just as viable as traditional ones, and the proof puts the lie to that statement.

So we don't agree.

Read my post dummy......I posted an article (with link) that tells you Ben Franklin was a Deist.

Although.....to be fair.....he was baptized Presbeteryan.

 

[sky dancer]

The era which brought into being the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution is often referred to as the "New Enlightenment" because it so realized and reflected the values and beliefs of the European Englightenment or Age of Reason as it is alternately called.

There are two things that can be said without equivocation about the men who declared our land's independence from England, who breathed life into a new nation, who shaped and formed its constition. The first is that they were the heirs of this Age of Reason, they were rational men who created a rational system of government which allowed for the free and unfettered development of what they perceived to be a rational economic system.

There are those who might argue to the contrary,who would have us believe that they were Christians who sought to establish a Christian state based on faith in the Bible. But the fact of the matter is that our Founding Fathers did not turn to the Bible but rather to the great works of Enlightenment philosophy when the time came for them to write the constitution. They turned to Hobbes who in his Leviathan argued that man in the state of nature existed in a "war of all against all."

This view of man as constantly in a state of struggle with his fellows is balanced by a view of him as an essentially rational creature, for this war of all against all is brought to an end by the rational judgment of the men who war against each other. They elect one from amongst them to stand above them and be their sovereign, whose task it is to ensure that the war of all against all is held within acceptable limits and constraints. Human beings thus, as a rational act, elect their ruler.

This view of man as both rational and competitive is conjoined with Locke's view of man as a creature possessed of certain natural and inherent rights which it is the duty of government to ensure. In addition to the thought of Hobbes and Locke the Founding Father's were influenced as well by the writings of Adam Smith, who believed that there was an invisible hand guiding the economic development of society which was best left to function independently. At the core of his belief as well, was the view of man as an essentially rational creature who was able to identify and pursue his needs. We might add to the list other Enlightenemnt thinkers such as Rousseau and Diderot, but suffice it to say the ideas of these men are reflected in the thoughts of our founding fathers and in the doctuments which they wrote.

The statement "We hold these truths to be self evident...." implies that man is able to grasp truths, and beyond this, that all men are equally rational and thus equally able to pursue live their lives, pursue their happinesses, and live freely. The heart that beats in the body of democracy is reason, for only beings who are inherently free and rational are able to live in a democracy...or rather, democracy is a system of government which was created to correspond to human nature, which is inherently free and rational.

Freedom without rationality gives us terror, anarchy and fear. Reason without freedom leads, as our founding father's demonstrated, to rebellion and revolution. But democracy is the raimement of a free and rational people. This is the primary influence which the Enlightenment had on our founding fathers.

The second thing that can be said of the men who shaped our nation, is that they did so without and doubt as to their right to do so. They were by and large educated men, mostly lawyers, they were men who had led and governed this nation before it was a nation, they were the economic and political and educational elite of this country. As such they established a nation which best suited their political and economic and personal class interests.

In this way too they reflected Enlightenement values in the sense that the Enlightenment was a turning away from the values and social and political structures of a feudal and aristocratic society. The thinkers of the Enlightenment were the spokesmen of a new and rising class, a class of educated and wealthy merchants and businessmen. It was this class as well, to which the majority of our founding fathers belonged and whose interests they upheld and spoke for (See James Beard's work on the economic foundations of the Constitution.

WikiAnswers - How did the Enlightenment influence the founding fathers

 

[mightypeon]

Some people who definitly want America to become a theocracy:

Wladimir Putin (propably, the US would be tied up with its theocratic problems, giving him freer reign)
Ajatollah Chomeini (There is no better enemy for a theocracy than a theocracy that follows another faith)
Osama Bin laden (Yessss, bring on the Apocalypse!)
Hu Jintao (A US theocrazy would propably remove any US threat to China, besides a theorcracy may not be that hot on protecting Taiwanese "Heathens", although trade would be hurt)

History showed that transforming into a theocracy is the absolutly worst thing that can happen to an Empire, just ask the Ottomans.
For America, it would destroy its research abilities (seriously, science and theocracy do not mix), they would need a huge repression apparatus to keep non believers in line, they would be tied up with conflicts for "religious reasons" (even more than now).

Theocracys are decent in waging wars, they can go to war quite freely (DEUS VULT! No need for a Casus Belli) and they are good in converting others to their faith.

They are totally horendous in nearly everything else.
However, a theocracy in the US may have expelled the investment bankers a few years ago, which may have been a smart thing to do

 

[catzmeow]

You can't do it, because it's not true. We have a separation of church and state because our CHRISTIAN founding fathers thought that was the best way to protect freedom of religion, and it's a known fact that our founding fathers were for the most part CHRISTIANS. Not "deists". That's a secular myth created because anti-Christians don't want to acknowledge the fact that liberty and freedom are Christian concepts.

The term "wall of separation between church and state" came from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson, a deist (not a Christian at all), to the Danbury Baptist Association.

YOu really should do your homework before issuing such ignorant and arrogant proclamations.

Separation of church and state in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Care4all]

The term "wall of separation between church and state" came from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson, a deist (not a Christian at all), to the Danbury Baptist Association.

YOu really should do your homework before issuing such ignorant and arrogant proclamations.

Separation of church and state in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This link, which i got from your link Catz, goes in to the Establishment clause and the different meanings that some have for it, based on Supreme Court rulings over the years along with taking in to consideration Madison's, who actually was the AUTHOR of the 1st amendment clauses, and Jefferson.

What was interesting is that it said that at the time of the Bill of Rights, there were many states, if not nearly all, that had established churches in their States and this did not seem to bother the founders, or there was no concern on their part, that this broke the 1st amendment because at the time, i believe the founders felt the Bill of Rights did not prevent the States from doing such....I think that it was not until the 14th amendment was passed, before the States no longer had their established religions, though many stopped before this amendment, states like massachusetts, still had an Established Church....

Really, interesting stuff! Thanks for the original link, and if you want to read more on the Establishment Clause,

HERE IT IS: Establishment Clause of the First Amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Care

 

[catzmeow]

This link, which i got from your link Catz, goes in to the Establishment clause and the different meanings that some have for it, based on Supreme Court rulings over the years along with taking in to consideration Madison's, who actually was the AUTHOR of the 1st amendment clauses, and Jefferson.

What was interesting is that it said that at the time of the Bill of Rights, there were many states, if not nearly all, that had established churches in their States and this did not seem to bother the founders, or there was no concern on their part, that this broke the 1st amendment because at the time, i believe the founders felt the Bill of Rights did not prevent the States from doing such....I think that it was not until the 14th amendment was passed, before the States no longer had their established religions, though many stopped before this amendment, states like massachusetts, still had an Established Church....

Really, interesting stuff! Thanks for the original link, and if you want to read more on the Establishment Clause,

HERE IT IS: Establishment Clause of the First Amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Care

In 1777, when Jefferson first drafted the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, we didn't even have a constitution in place. At that point in time, if you will remember, our 13 states were still fighting the Revolutionary War, and the U.S. was governed by the Continental Congress.

Our constitution wasn't even ratified by all of the states until 1787. So, your comment that the founding fathers didn't have a problem with the status quo (the religious monopoly held in many states by specific denominations) is inaccurate.

The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was ratified in Virginia in 1786, prior to the U.S. Constitution being ratified in Philadelphia in 1787, This Virginia Statute later served as the foundation for the first amendment, which was ratified by the founding fathers in 1791, 4 years after the Constitution was ratified.

So, it happened relatively quickly after the nation was on solid footing. I mean, the revolutionary war didn't even end until 1783. It was pretty unstable during those years, and certainly, they had bigger priorities than addressing this specific topic in those years.

 

[catzmeow]

This link, which i got from your link Catz, goes in to the Establishment clause and the different meanings that some have for it, based on Supreme Court rulings over the years along with taking in to consideration Madison's, who actually was the AUTHOR of the 1st amendment clauses, and Jefferson.

What was interesting is that it said that at the time of the Bill of Rights, there were many states, if not nearly all, that had established churches in their States and this did not seem to bother the founders, or there was no concern on their part, that this broke the 1st amendment because at the time, i believe the founders felt the Bill of Rights did not prevent the States from doing such....I think that it was not until the 14th amendment was passed, before the States no longer had their established religions, though many stopped before this amendment, states like massachusetts, still had an Established Church....

Really, interesting stuff! Thanks for the original link, and if you want to read more on the Establishment Clause,

HERE IT IS: Establishment Clause of the First Amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Care

this linked article misses a lot (like over a hundred years of history and court decisions), and is disputed. I'd suggest that it is not the most accurate source.

 

[Southpaw]

Alright, I already posted this as a link earlier in the 'discussion' but it looks like no one read it. That means you all get a nice big helpin' OF GIANT WALL OF TEXT/COPY PASTA!

John Adams

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.1

The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.2

Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.3

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.4

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!5

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.6

John Quincy Adams

SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR; U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”

My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.7

link: WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

(note all these quotes are backed by primary sources, not what a libby revisionist historian 50 years ago *thinks* about these guys)

 

[jillian]

If they were interested in what you said, they'd have responded. Your post was cut down to comply with board rules. There will be no giant walls of cut and paste. Thanks.

 

[Care4all]

In 1777, when Jefferson first drafted the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, we didn't even have a constitution in place. At that point in time, if you will remember, our 13 states were still fighting the Revolutionary War, and the U.S. was governed by the Continental Congress.

Our constitution wasn't even ratified by all of the states until 1787. So, your comment that the founding fathers didn't have a problem with the status quo (the religious monopoly held in many states by specific denominations) is inaccurate.

The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was ratified in Virginia in 1786, prior to the U.S. Constitution being ratified in Philadelphia in 1787, This Virginia Statute later served as the foundation for the first amendment, which was ratified by the founding fathers in 1791, 4 years after the Constitution was ratified.

So, it happened relatively quickly after the nation was on solid footing. I mean, the revolutionary war didn't even end until 1783. It was pretty unstable during those years, and certainly, they had bigger priorities than addressing this specific topic in those years.

Read the link catz, they didn't have a problem with the States having their own established churces because the First Amendment prohibited the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT from establishing an official church such as "the Church of England" back in the "old Country", that would supersede what each individual state chose....was my understanding from reading the link....??? I could be wrong on that, but this is how it read to me...

And quite frankly, i don't think ALL of our founding fathers, would have permitted for decades, the Established Churches that some states hung on to, IF IT WERE unconstitutional....do you?

here, found this on it....looks like i was right....it was the federal gvt, not permitted!!

The First Amendment to the US Constitution explicitly forbids the U.S. federal government from enacting any law respecting a religious establishment, and thus forbids either designating an official church for the United States, or interfering with State and local official churches — which were common when the First Amendment was enacted. It did not prevent state governments from establishing official churches. Connecticut continued to do so until it replaced its colonial Charter with the Connecticut Constitution of 1818; Massachusetts did not disestablish its official church until 1833, more than forty years after the ratification of the First Amendment; and local official establishments of religion persisted even later.

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 14th amendment is what nixed it or clarified it in to what it is today, but NOT the founding fathers, through the original 10 amendments...the Bill of Rights....maybe in letters decades later, but it still DID NOT force States get rid of their State Established religions....they did this one by one, on their own free will, as decades went by.

Care

 

[Southpaw]

Let's go to some Congressional documents shall we?

This is the text of the Continental Congress November 1, 1777 national Thanksgiving Day Proclamation; as printed in the Journals of Congress.

Saturday, November 1, 1777

The committee appointed to prepare a recommendation to the several states, to set apart a day of public thanksgiving, brought in a report; which was taken into consideration, and agreed to as follows:

Forasmuch as it is the indispensable duty of all men to adore the superintending providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with gratitude their obligation to him for benefits received, and to implore such farther blessings as they stand in need of; and it having pleased him in his abundant mercy not only to continue to us the innumerable bounties of his common providence, but also smile upon us in the prosecution of a just and necessary war, for the defense and establishment of our unalienable rights and liberties; particularly in that he hath been pleased in so great a measure to prosper the means used for the support of our troops and to crown our arms with most signal success:


It is therefore recommended to the legislative or executive powers of these United States, to set apart Thursday, the 18th day of December next, for solemn thanksgiving and praise; that with one heart and one voice the good people may express the grateful feelings of their hearts, and consecrate themselves to the service of their divine benefactor; and that together with their sincere acknowledgments and offerings, they may join the penitent confession of their manifold sins, whereby they had forfeited every favor, and their humble and earnest supplication that it may please God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of remembrance; that it may please him graciously to afford his blessings on the governments of these states respectively, and prosper the public council of the whole; to inspire our commanders both by land and sea, and all under them, with that wisdom and fortitude which may render them fit instruments, under the providence of Almighty God, to secure for these United States the greatest of all blessings, independence and peace; that it may please him to prosper the trade and manufactures of the people and the labor of the husbandman, that our land may yield its increase; to take schools and seminaries of education, so necessary for cultivating the principles of true liberty, virtue and piety, under his nurturing hand, and to prosper the means of religion for the promotion and enlargement of that kingdom which consisteth in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

And it is further recommended, that servile labor, and such recreation as, though at other times innocent, may be unbecoming the purpose of this appointment, be omitted on so solemn an occasion.

Let's see, we have God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. Can't be talking about Christianity... can we?

 

[Southpaw]

If they were interested in what you said, they'd have responded. Your post was cut down to comply with board rules. There will be no giant walls of cut and paste. Thanks.

That's fine. Your board, your rules. Read the link, people. Quit arguing about something that is clearly settled by what the Founders actually said.

 

[dilloduck]

The real chances of American turning into a theocracy are ZERO. We have moved further and further from resembling anything religious since our inception.

 

[eots]

America was founded on Christian principles, which include respect and tolerance of those who aren't believers. Perhaps the non-believers should show a similar level of respect and tolerance of the society that gives them the right to believe whatever they damn well please.

ya a while there at it a tip of the hat for freeing the slaves and letting woman vote would be appreciated as well......Man..like what's a WASP got to do to get a little respect around here ?

 

[Care4all]

Alright, I already posted this as a link earlier in the 'discussion' but it looks like no one read it. That means you all get a nice big helpin' OF GIANT WALL OF TEXT/COPY PASTA!

John Adams

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.1

The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.2

Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.3

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.4

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!5

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.6

John Quincy Adams

SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR; U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”

My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.7

link: WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

(note all these quotes are backed by primary sources, not what a libby revisionist historian 50 years ago *thinks* about these guys)

Judeo/-Christian VALUES at the time....and how they related in a secular sense...

NOT religion.

just to clarify...and imo.

care