The zionists do NOT speak for the Jewish people and antizionism is NOT antisemitism.

[rylah]

Please don't type inside my quote. And I was right about what was said above, yes? It discusses our commandment not to provoke the other nations and not to take for ourselves sovereignty and a government before the redemption, right? Be truthful.

I have seen only one time in our history where a rabbi went against this notion, and sadly, you haven't even found that one.

Btw, your Maimonides quote has nothing to do with taking land (especially the holy land) by force. This is what Maimonides said in that respect:

The messiah will gather in the Jews from exile. Whoever does not believe in him is denying the Torah, which says (Deuteronomy 30:3), “The L-rd your G-d will restore your exiles and have mercy on you.” (Laws of Kings 11:1)
--Maimonides (1135-1204)

Now go study.

No.
It talks about a basic fundamental obligation for each Jew to believe in G-d's redemption.
You're deflecting.

Did Maimonides discuss taking the land by force...or did he just became a not "true Torah" Jew?

 

[rylah]

"From Moses to Moses..."
know who this saying refers to?

 

[abi]

Look, stop deflecting and trolling. This thread is important. If you won't answer direct questions and if you cannot provide the quotations I have asked for, then move on to another thread. I posted the relevant passage from Maimonides.

I could literally posts quotes daily from our rabbis that show you are wrong.

For instance:
Living in the Holy Land is a meritorious act; nevertheless, the Jewish people must not all go up together with a strong hand, in an act similar to the ingathering of the exiles, for they are not permitted to hasten the end, until the Creator hastens our redemption. (Piskei Riaz, Kesubos 13:8)
--Rabbi Yishaya ben Eliyahu Di Trani (c. 1300)

 

[rylah]

Look, stop deflecting and trolling. This thread is important. If you won't answer direct questions and if you cannot provide the quotations I have asked for, then move on to another thread. I posted the relevant passage from Maimonides.

I could literally posts quotes daily from our rabbis that show you are wrong.

For instance:
Living in the Holy Land is a meritorious act; nevertheless, the Jewish people must not all go up together with a strong hand, in an act similar to the ingathering of the exiles, for they are not permitted to hasten the end, until the Creator hastens our redemption. (Piskei Riaz, Kesubos 13:8)
--Rabbi Yishaya ben Eliyahu Di Trani (c. 1300)

But:
שנים שנשבעו לעשות דבר אחד ועבר אחד מהם על השבועה השני פטור ואינו צריך התרה לפיכך איש ואשה שנשתדכו זה לזה וקבלו חרם לינשא לזמן קבוע מי שיעכב והעביר המועד אסור לינשא לאחר והלה מותר ואינו צריך התרה וגם המעכב עצמו מותר בלא התרה לאחר שנשא שכנגדו

"Two who made an oath to do a thing and one has forsaken the oath, the second is exempt and doesn't need formal permission..."(Shulchan Aruch -Yore Dea 236:6)

The nations have forsaken their part of the 3 oaths - not to enslave and torture Israel too much.
Those who side with Amalek of today and open enemies of the Jewish people are directly causing danger to their own people.

Edit: btw Zionist Jews too are waiting for in gathering of exiles and redemption in whole.
An international recognition of Israel had a great effect on many orthodox Jews and their position on Israel.

 

[abi]

But:
שנים שנשבעו לעשות דבר אחד ועבר אחד מהם על השבועה השני פטור ואינו צריך התרה לפיכך איש ואשה שנשתדכו זה לזה וקבלו חרם לינשא לזמן קבוע מי שיעכב והעביר המועד אסור לינשא לאחר והלה מותר ואינו צריך התרה וגם המעכב עצמו מותר בלא התרה לאחר שנשא שכנגדו

"Two who made an oath to do a thing and one has forsaken the oath, the second is exempt and doesn't need formal permission..."(Shulchan Aruch -Yore Dea 236:6)

The nations have forsaken their part of the 3 oaths - not to enslave and torture Israel too much.
Those who side with Amalek of today and open enemies of the Jewish people are directly causing danger to their own people.

That has nothing to do with this topic. Where in that whole thing are we commanded by God to leave our diaspora and return to Israel. I translated it. It was about rules for rape and oaths, there was even a raped fetus mentioned. What the hell is wrong with you?

Beyond that, the Shulchan Aruch is not the code of Jewish law and it has been widely criticized within the Jewish community. Hopefully, for that disgusting crap you linked to. Please leave this thread out of your daily ritual from this point on, thank-you.

And to get back on topic, let's go back even farther:

The prayer “G-d of salvations, in the four oaths” is a reference to the oaths of the Song of Songs. We ask G-d: Save us, for You have made us swear not to rebel against the nations, and we are keeping your oath in exile and bearing the yoke of exile.
--Rashi (1040-1105)

 

[rylah]

But:
שנים שנשבעו לעשות דבר אחד ועבר אחד מהם על השבועה השני פטור ואינו צריך התרה לפיכך איש ואשה שנשתדכו זה לזה וקבלו חרם לינשא לזמן קבוע מי שיעכב והעביר המועד אסור לינשא לאחר והלה מותר ואינו צריך התרה וגם המעכב עצמו מותר בלא התרה לאחר שנשא שכנגדו

"Two who made an oath to do a thing and one has forsaken the oath, the second is exempt and doesn't need formal permission..."(Shulchan Aruch -Yore Dea 236:6)

The nations have forsaken their part of the 3 oaths - not to enslave and torture Israel too much.
Those who side with Amalek of today and open enemies of the Jewish people are directly causing danger to their own people.

That has nothing to do with this topic. Where in that whole thing are we commanded by God to leave our diaspora and return to Israel. I translated it. It was about rules for rape and oaths, there was even a raped fetus mentioned. What the hell is wrong with you?

Beyond that, the Shulchan Aruch is not the code of Jewish law and it has been widely criticized within the Jewish community. Hopefully, for that disgusting crap you linked to. Please leave this thread out of your daily ritual from this point on, thank-you.

And to get back on topic, let's go back even farther:

The prayer “G-d of salvations, in the four oaths” is a reference to the oaths of the Song of Songs. We ask G-d: Save us, for You have made us swear not to rebel against the nations, and we are keeping your oath in exile and bearing the yoke of exile.
--Rashi (1040-1105)

Then You simply don't get how a Jewish Legal discussion goes. If You didn't like the examples brought by the rabbis that's Your problem. Laws are not all flowers and kittens, and they discussed everything in parallel and in detail.

You don't understand that the oath itself points to the Nation's and Israel's side of the bargain, which the first have forsaken. There's no law in Judaism that says one has to stretch his neck before a sword, on the opposite Maimonides said clearly - WARS TO SAVE ISRAEL.

Your initial claim that no rabbi ever discussed taking land by force was dealt with with the same book You quoted.
Schulhan Aruch is indeed a summary of the Laws, the most authoritative and consulted one.

I'm just bringing You up to date with a 150 yo conversation You have zilch idea about.
Now go read Nahmanides and his view on the commandment to conquer the land in our times.

 

[rylah]

But:
שנים שנשבעו לעשות דבר אחד ועבר אחד מהם על השבועה השני פטור ואינו צריך התרה לפיכך איש ואשה שנשתדכו זה לזה וקבלו חרם לינשא לזמן קבוע מי שיעכב והעביר המועד אסור לינשא לאחר והלה מותר ואינו צריך התרה וגם המעכב עצמו מותר בלא התרה לאחר שנשא שכנגדו

"Two who made an oath to do a thing and one has forsaken the oath, the second is exempt and doesn't need formal permission..."(Shulchan Aruch -Yore Dea 236:6)

The nations have forsaken their part of the 3 oaths - not to enslave and torture Israel too much.
Those who side with Amalek of today and open enemies of the Jewish people are directly causing danger to their own people.

That has nothing to do with this topic. Where in that whole thing are we commanded by God to leave our diaspora and return to Israel. I translated it. It was about rules for rape and oaths, there was even a raped fetus mentioned. What the hell is wrong with you?

Beyond that, the Shulchan Aruch is not the code of Jewish law and it has been widely criticized within the Jewish community. Hopefully, for that disgusting crap you linked to. Please leave this thread out of your daily ritual from this point on, thank-you.

And to get back on topic, let's go back even farther:

The prayer “G-d of salvations, in the four oaths” is a reference to the oaths of the Song of Songs. We ask G-d: Save us, for You have made us swear not to rebel against the nations, and we are keeping your oath in exile and bearing the yoke of exile.
--Rashi (1040-1105)

Midrash Agada, if I understand correctly is not Halkha, and if I'm not mistaken this is too - according to Maimonides.
And even the last Ashkenazic posek (Hafetz Haim), according to his son never mention the 3 oaths, but frequently mentioned the obligation to make an Aliyah.

Abi, get to live with it - there're different opinions and attitudes towards Israel in the orthodox community.
It's not black vs white extremes. And Yes Zionists, including the orthodox Zionists do speak for a lot (if not majority) of Jews. They can have conflicting views and arguments, but this is exactly how Jews have developed their education and culture - by arguing for centuries over details of laws.

 

[abi]

Let me continue. I hope you can see the type of direct quotes we are looking for.

We must follow in the footsteps of the Patriarchs and prepare ourselves to approach the gentiles with gifts, with soft speech and with prayer before G-d. But war is impossible, for G-d made the Jewish people swear not to wage wars against the nations.
--Rabbi Bachya ben Asher (d. 1340)

 

[rylah]

Let me continue. I hope you can see the type of direct quotes we are looking for.

We must follow in the footsteps of the Patriarchs and prepare ourselves to approach the gentiles with gifts, with soft speech and with prayer before G-d. But war is impossible, for G-d made the Jewish people swear not to wage wars against the nations.
--Rabbi Bachya ben Asher (d. 1340)

Only if the nations treated Israel fairly, if not it is a war of commandment as mentioned by Maimonides.

Actually all Your quotes are from one anti-Zionist website.
Again abi, You should learn to live with a different opinion. Because in reality THERE IS ONE supported by nations and majority of Jews.

 

[abi]

They are all sourced in Jewish literature.

There is no doubt that traveling to the Holy Land is a meritorious act…but now, one of the Three Oaths G-d made the Jewish people swear is not to go up as a wall.
--Rabbi Yitzchak ben Sheishes (1326-1408)

The zionists went up as a wall, now go study!

 

[abu afak]

...Some Jews, yes, but all of this and all the blood that follows will be on the hands of the zionists, not the Jewish people.Neturei Karta are Moisers. That being said, let me ask you a hypothetical question.Those people, Neturei Karta, who're about 0.00002% of the Jewish community, reject the idea of a Zionist take over over Israel. To each their own opinion.
....

1. WTF are you talking about...
"Zionist takeover of Israel"?
Israel IS/WAS the ultimate goal OF Zionism. That's the definition.
No Zionism, NO Israel.

2. and we never did catch HOW MANY of these ultra-orthodox Kool Aid sect-ers you assert there are.
Ball Park number/percent Please?
whiff coming.

What a deluded piece of posting.

 

[rylah]

They are all sourced in Jewish literature.

There is no doubt that traveling to the Holy Land is a meritorious act…but now, one of the Three Oaths G-d made the Jewish people swear is not to go up as a wall.
--Rabbi Yitzchak ben Sheishes (1326-1408)

The zionists went up as a wall, now go study!

Nope,
When did the whole Jewish nation ever try to go as a wall??
Be factual - year of departure and arrival.

Moreover, Maharal of Prague concluded:

"God prevents us from ascending as a wall, but when it is possible to ascend as a wall, a sign is canceled" (Ketuvot p. 119 קי"ב)

חידושי אגדות מהר"ל מפראג - חלק א - יהודה ליואי בן בצלאל, 1512-1609 (page 119 of 195)

 

[abi]

1. WTF are you talking about...
"Zionist takeover of Israel"?
Israel IS/WAS the ultimate goal OF Zionism. That's the definition.
No Zionism, NO Israel.

Exactly, and that IS the point of this thread. The idea of taking any land, forget about Palestine, in war, is completely contradictory to what Judaism was since the very first Jew.

2. and we never did catch HOW MANY of these ultra-orthodox Kool Aid sect-ers you assert there are.
Ball Park number/percent Please?
whiff coming.

What a deluded piece of posting.

I am not sure to be honest. I know that very few Jews are willing to speak out. Lipush calls them Moisers (sp?) or something similar. Foreveryoung has called me a traitor in this same vain. Your best bet, if you really care, would be to email the Central Rabbinical Congress, a Satmar rabbi, The Guardians of the City, Neturei Karta, and most definitely, The Edah HaChareidis in Jerusalem. There are many more, but start there.

And "Kool Aid sect-ers" are a strange way to describe traditional Jews. Do you consider yourself an anti-Semite? Do you hate Jews or Judaism?
http://www.usmessageboard.com/members/rylah.54800/
rylah,
I am not wasting my time translating another of your rape fantasies. The English quote you offered returned zero results. Please stop trolling.

 

[abi]

During exile, living in the Holy Land is not a general commandment for all Jews, but on the contrary it is forbidden, as the Talmud says in the last chapter of Kesubos, that this is one of the oaths that G-d made the Jews swear: that they not hurry the end and not go up as a wall. Go and see what happened to the children of Ephraim when they hurried the end!
--Rabbi Shlomo ben Shimon Duran (1400-1467)
Solomon ben Simon Duran - Wikipedia

Remember Ephraim? Have I said too much?

 

[abu afak]

1. WTF are you talking about...
"Zionist takeover of Israel"?
Israel IS/WAS the ultimate goal OF Zionism. That's the definition.
No Zionism, NO Israel.

Exactly, and that IS the point of this thread. The idea of taking any land, forget about Palestine, in war, is completely contradictory to what Judaism was since the very first Jew.

No.
Your DISHONEST and Failed point was that Zionists were 'taking over Israel' from the non-Zionist bulk/founders/Jews.
That's BS.
Israel came about because OF Zionists, and they remain in Great Majority.

How asinine that you think any significant amount of Israelis/Jews want to self-destruct their state.

2. and we never did catch HOW MANY of these ultra-orthodox Kool Aid sect-ers you assert there are.
Ball Park number/percent Please?
whiff coming.
What a deluded piece of posting.

I am not sure to be honest. I know that very few Jews are willing to speak out. Lipush calls them Moisers (sp?) or something similar. Foreveryoung has called me a traitor in this same vain. Your best bet, if you really care, would be to email the Central Rabbinical Congress, a Satmar rabbi, The Guardians of the City, Neturei Karta, and most definitely..

If you're "Not sure," you have NO basis for your claim.

PS: I'm sure you don't want to know, as a bit of googling (of each group) could probably give you a rough estimate.
But again, you don't want to know, as it would Ruin your now better-off-Nebulous claim.
Gameover.

They never last more than 2 posts with me.
The premise outing, then the crush.
bye

`

 

[abi]

Odd that you come on here and claim victory as I have offered countless Jewish sources and can continue until the proverbial cows come home, while the zionists have offered nothing.

Need more?

....we must bear the yoke of the exile and live under the nations until the time of the End.
--Rabbi Isaac Abarbanel (1437-1508)
Isaac Abarbanel - Wikipedia

 

[rylah]

1. WTF are you talking about...
"Zionist takeover of Israel"?
Israel IS/WAS the ultimate goal OF Zionism. That's the definition.
No Zionism, NO Israel.

Exactly, and that IS the point of this thread. The idea of taking any land, forget about Palestine, in war, is completely contradictory to what Judaism was since the very first Jew.

2. and we never did catch HOW MANY of these ultra-orthodox Kool Aid sect-ers you assert there are.
Ball Park number/percent Please?
whiff coming.

What a deluded piece of posting.

I am not sure to be honest. I know that very few Jews are willing to speak out. Lipush calls them Moisers (sp?) or something similar. Foreveryoung has called me a traitor in this same vain. Your best bet, if you really care, would be to email the Central Rabbinical Congress, a Satmar rabbi, The Guardians of the City, Neturei Karta, and most definitely, The Edah HaChareidis in Jerusalem. There are many more, but start there.

And "Kool Aid sect-ers" are a strange way to describe traditional Jews. Do you consider yourself an anti-Semite? Do you hate Jews or Judaism?
rylah,
I am not wasting my time translating another of your rape fantasies. The English quote you offered returned zero results. Please stop trolling.

Well unlike You I gave the original source. But You know no Hebrew.
Your problem.

No go teach Jews about the Torah...

 

[fncceo]

No single person or group of person 'speaks for the Jews' of the world. We are a diverse group with a wide spectrum of believe.

There is one thing for certain ... YOU speak for none of us.

 

[abi]

No single person or group of person 'speaks for the Jews' of the world.

Not even God?

יב וְנָשָׂא נֵס לַגּוֹיִם, וְאָסַף נִדְחֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל; וּנְפֻצוֹת יְהוּדָה יְקַבֵּץ, מֵאַרְבַּע כַּנְפוֹת הָאָרֶץ.

12 And He will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the dispersed of Israel, and gather together the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isaiah 11 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

 

[rylah]

No single person or group of person 'speaks for the Jews' of the world.

Not even God?

יב וְנָשָׂא נֵס לַגּוֹיִם, וְאָסַף נִדְחֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל; וּנְפֻצוֹת יְהוּדָה יְקַבֵּץ, מֵאַרְבַּע כַּנְפוֹת הָאָרֶץ.

12 And He will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the dispersed of Israel, and gather together the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isaiah 11 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

I don't understand how one contradicts the other.

What makes You think it was NOT G-d who brought part of his children to His land, and made it the biggest place of Baalei Tshuva?
Do You know what a Baal Tshuva means?

If Israel existence is contradictory to prophecies of the Torah, why does Hashem safeguards Israelis, gives them their enemies and the control over Jerusalem?