The zionists do NOT speak for the Jewish people and antizionism is NOT antisemitism.

[rylah]

1. WTF are you talking about...
"Zionist takeover of Israel"?
Israel IS/WAS the ultimate goal OF Zionism. That's the definition.
No Zionism, NO Israel.

Exactly, and that IS the point of this thread. The idea of taking any land, forget about Palestine, in war, is completely contradictory to what Judaism was since the very first Jew.

2. and we never did catch HOW MANY of these ultra-orthodox Kool Aid sect-ers you assert there are.
Ball Park number/percent Please?
whiff coming.

What a deluded piece of posting.

I am not sure to be honest. I know that very few Jews are willing to speak out. Lipush calls them Moisers (sp?) or something similar. Foreveryoung has called me a traitor in this same vain. Your best bet, if you really care, would be to email the Central Rabbinical Congress, a Satmar rabbi, The Guardians of the City, Neturei Karta, and most definitely, The Edah HaChareidis in Jerusalem. There are many more, but start there.

And "Kool Aid sect-ers" are a strange way to describe traditional Jews. Do you consider yourself an anti-Semite? Do you hate Jews or Judaism?
rylah,
I am not wasting my time translating another of your rape fantasies. The English quote you offered returned zero results. Please stop trolling.

This is selective vision at best, interesting that You haven't really addressed any of my posts.
Calling me names is not an argument.
Additionally, I suggest You read about the Satmar rabbi, and find who Hashem chose, to save him from Europe, I guess You'll be shocked.

Moreover, You should at least learn the Hebrew alphabet before trying to "teach" people Torah.
This is ridiculous that I even have to mention it.

 

[abi]

I don't understand how one contradicts the other.

What makes You think it was NOT G-d who brought part of his children to His land, and made it the biggest place of Baalei Tshuva?
Do You know what a Baal Tshuva means?

If Israel existence is contradictory to prophecies of the Torah, why does Hashem safeguards Israelis, gives them their enemies and the control over Jerusalem?

Because:

כב וְעָשִׂיתִי אֹתָם לְגוֹי אֶחָד בָּאָרֶץ, בְּהָרֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וּמֶלֶךְ אֶחָד יִהְיֶה לְכֻלָּם, לְמֶלֶךְ; וְלֹא יהיה- (יִהְיוּ-) עוֹד לִשְׁנֵי גוֹיִם, וְלֹא יֵחָצוּ עוֹד לִשְׁתֵּי מַמְלָכוֹת עוֹד.

22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all;
Ezekiel 37 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Really?

You are really melting down lately. I suggest you go study some REAL history.

If there was even a single historical inaccuracy in anything that I have posted, not only you, but your entire team would be in here pointing it out. I am 100% accurate when I state that the zionists do NOT speak for the Jewish people and antizionism is NOT antisemitism.

You might wish to throw the Jewish people under a bus for the sake of your beloved Israel, but continually trying to equate the zionists and their behavior with the Jewish people is dangerous and irresponsible.

"...... because I say so".

Come on, Louie. How many more accounts have you opened?

Why this place allows subhumans to have as many socks as they wish sure baffles me. I guess as long as it trolls, it goes.

This thing seems to think that as long as it refers to Jews as "Zionists", then it isn't an antisemite despite its very singular purpose here of demonizing Jews, and despite the fact that Zionism is simply a term to express the right of Jewish people to self-determination. .

 

[rylah]

I don't understand how one contradicts the other.

What makes You think it was NOT G-d who brought part of his children to His land, and made it the biggest place of Baalei Tshuva?
Do You know what a Baal Tshuva means?

If Israel existence is contradictory to prophecies of the Torah, why does Hashem safeguards Israelis, gives them their enemies and the control over Jerusalem?

Because:

כב וְעָשִׂיתִי אֹתָם לְגוֹי אֶחָד בָּאָרֶץ, בְּהָרֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וּמֶלֶךְ אֶחָד יִהְיֶה לְכֻלָּם, לְמֶלֶךְ; וְלֹא יהיה- (יִהְיוּ-) עוֹד לִשְׁנֵי גוֹיִם, וְלֹא יֵחָצוּ עוֹד לִשְׁתֵּי מַמְלָכוֹת עוֹד.

22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all;
Ezekiel 37 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

And?
Of course when redemption is complete there will be no divide, not among Israel nor among any other nations globally.

I don't understand Your point in simply quoting verses about redemption, without addressing any of what I said.

 

[abi]

And?
Of course when Moshiach comes there will be no divide.
I don't understand Your point in simply quoting verses about redemption, without addressing any of what I said.

That is what you asked for. That is how we know that this is not God returning the Jews to their promised land. That is how we know that this is a land grab by the zionists and has nothing to do with Judaism or with God gathering us from our diaspora. That is the point of this entire thread.

 

[rylah]

And?
Of course when Moshiach comes there will be no divide.
I don't understand Your point in simply quoting verses about redemption, without addressing any of what I said.

That is what you asked for. That is how we know that this is not God returning the Jews to their promised land. That is how we know that this is a land grab by the zionists and has nothing to do with Judaism or with God gathering us from our diaspora. That is the point of this entire thread.

I don't get Your reasoning, nobody sees Zionism as the messiah.
This is just a strawman running through all of Your posts here.

No this just shows us how we can recognize the real Moshiach.
I suggest You read on 2 version of redemption and its' process.

We don't know about the order of things to come, what will come first or second. We don't even know whether Moshiach is G-d himself, nation of Israel or a person. Rambam said that ONLY when it comes we know for sure.

Until then You're merely guessing...if at all understand what we are discussing here.

 

[abi]

I don't get Your reasoning, nobody sees Zionism as the messiah.
This is just a strawman running through all of Your posts here.

No this just shows us how we can recognize the real Moshiach.
I suggest You read on 2 version of redemption and its' process.

We don't know about the order of things to come, what will come first or second. We don't even know whether Moshiach is G-d himself, nation of Israel or a person. Rambam said that ONLY when it comes we know for sure.

Until then You're merely guessing...if at all understand what we are discussing here.

Then, if the zionists claim to speak for the Jewish people, why are they there? Why did they come from another continent with weapons and claim Palestine in 1948 behind an army? Why have they not waited with the Jewish people for God to return us?

 

[rylah]

And?
Of course when Moshiach comes there will be no divide.
I don't understand Your point in simply quoting verses about redemption, without addressing any of what I said.

That is what you asked for. That is how we know that this is not God returning the Jews to their promised land. That is how we know that this is a land grab by the zionists and has nothing to do with Judaism or with God gathering us from our diaspora. That is the point of this entire thread.

עוד רמז לדורות כי כל אשר אירע לאבינו עם עשו אחיו יארע לנו תמיד עם בני עשו וראוי לנו לאחז בדרכו של צדיק שנזמין עצמנו לשלשת הדברים שהזמין הוא את עצמו לתפלה ולדורון ולהצלה בדרך מלחמה לברוח ולהנצל וכבר ראו רבותינו הרמז הזה מן הפרשה הזאת כאשר אזכיר (להלן לב ט לג טו)

"Another hint to the generations that all that happened to our father with Esav his brother will happen to us always with the sons of Esau, and it is fitting for us to take the path of a tzaddik to invite ourselves to the three things he has invited himself to prayer and gifts and to rescue through way of war to escape and be saved."

Nahmonides on Bereshit 32:2 (for link click on the Hebrew text)

 

[rylah]

I don't get Your reasoning, nobody sees Zionism as the messiah.
This is just a strawman running through all of Your posts here.

No this just shows us how we can recognize the real Moshiach.
I suggest You read on 2 version of redemption and its' process.

We don't know about the order of things to come, what will come first or second. We don't even know whether Moshiach is G-d himself, nation of Israel or a person. Rambam said that ONLY when it comes we know for sure.

Until then You're merely guessing...if at all understand what we are discussing here.

Then, if the zionists claim to speak for the Jewish people, why are they there? Why did they come from another continent with weapons and claim Palestine in 1948 behind an army? Why have they not waited with the Jewish people for God to return us?

I ask You again, why did G-d let them and thousands of tzaddikim to make Aliyah?
Why did G-d use a Zionist to save the Satmer rabbi?
Why did G-d gave us our enemies?

Remind You, if anti-zionist were right, according to the same verse they use against the state - Israelis should have been totally abandoned. Baruch Hashem we're not.
Israel is a place of Baalei Tshuva.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Do YOU know what it actually says abi?
This deals with the holiness of Jerusalem to Jews.

Ha, you pretended it said something to meet your bias. Foreveryoung did this on another thread. I know it discusses our commandment not to provoke the other nations and not to take for ourselves sovereignty and a government before the redemption.

They wrote that because that is what Judaism taught for millennia.

Are you talking about that Talmudic reference to pedophelia, which you posted and I tried to translate? Besides the fact that it had absolutely nothing to do with the I/P conflict, I still did about an 80% correct translation, even though Hebrew is not my mother tongue. I googled the relevant passage, and found out the rest of what it meant. The Talmud has some wise things in it and also some weird stuff. The ppl who wrote it were flawed human beings. That's why I rely more on the Hebrew Bible than the Talmud.

 

[abi]

"Another hint to the generations that all that happened to our father with Esav his brother will happen to us always with the sons of Esau, and it is fitting for us to take the path of a tzaddik to invite ourselves to the three things he has invited himself to prayer and gifts and to rescue through way of war to escape and be saved."

Nahmonides on Bereshit 32:2 (for link click on the Hebrew text)

Yes, war to escape, not to steal land or to simply murder God's children who believed differently.

I ask You again, why did G-d let them and thousands of tzaddikim to make Aliyah?
Why did G-d use a Zionist to save the Satmer rabbi?
Why did G-d gave us our enemies?

I am not your rabbi. I am just here posting from our bible and from our rabbis across time to illustrate that the zionists do not speak for the Jewish people.

I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, [that ye awaken not, nor stir up love,5 until it please]...

...the Holy One, blessed be He, adjured Israel that they shall not rebel against the nations of the world...

R. Eleazar explained: The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Israel, 'If you will keep the adjuration, well and good; but if not, I will permit your flesh [to be a prey] like [that of] the gazelles and the hinds of the field'....
--Tractate Kesubos 111a
Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 111

 

[rylah]

"Another hint to the generations that all that happened to our father with Esav his brother will happen to us always with the sons of Esau, and it is fitting for us to take the path of a tzaddik to invite ourselves to the three things he has invited himself to prayer and gifts and to rescue through way of war to escape and be saved."

Nahmonides on Bereshit 32:2 (for link click on the Hebrew text)

Yes, war to escape, not to steal land or to simply murder God's children who believed differently.

I ask You again, why did G-d let them and thousands of tzaddikim to make Aliyah?
Why did G-d use a Zionist to save the Satmer rabbi?
Why did G-d gave us our enemies?

I am not your rabbi. I am just here posting from our bible and from our rabbis across time to illustrate that the zionists do not speak for the Jewish people.

I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, [that ye awaken not, nor stir up love,5 until it please]...

...the Holy One, blessed be He, adjured Israel that they shall not rebel against the nations of the world...

R. Eleazar explained: The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Israel, 'If you will keep the adjuration, well and good; but if not, I will permit your flesh [to be a prey] like [that of] the gazelles and the hinds of the field'....
--Tractate Kesubos 111a
Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 111

From Your link:

They shall be carried to Babylon, and there shall they be, until the day that I remember them, saith the Lord.1 And R. Zera?2 — That text1 refers3 to the vessels of ministry.4 And Rab Judah? — Another text also is available:3 I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, [that ye awaken not, nor stir up love,5 until it please]'.6 And R. Zera? — That7 implies that Israel shall not go up [all together as if surrounded] by a wall.8 And Rab Judah? — Another 'I adjure you'9 is written in Scripture. And R. Zera? — That text is required for [an exposition] like that of R. Jose son of R. Hanina who said: 'What was the purpose of those three adjurations?10 — One, that Israel shall not go up [all together as if surrounded] by a wall;8 the second, that whereby the Holy One, blessed be He, adjured Israel that they shall not rebel against the nations of the world; and the third is that whereby the Holy One, blessed be He, adjured the idolaters that they shall not oppress Israel too much'.

Do I need to connect the dots for You?

 

[admonit]

--Tractate Kesubos 111a
Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 111

Didn't you recently attack the Talmud in your thread?

 

[rylah]

"Another hint to the generations that all that happened to our father with Esav his brother will happen to us always with the sons of Esau, and it is fitting for us to take the path of a tzaddik to invite ourselves to the three things he has invited himself to prayer and gifts and to rescue through way of war to escape and be saved."

Nahmonides on Bereshit 32:2 (for link click on the Hebrew text)

Yes, war to escape, not to steal land or to simply murder God's children who believed differently.

I ask You again, why did G-d let them and thousands of tzaddikim to make Aliyah?
Why did G-d use a Zionist to save the Satmer rabbi?
Why did G-d gave us our enemies?

I am not your rabbi. I am just here posting from our bible and from our rabbis across time to illustrate that the zionists do not speak for the Jewish people.

I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, [that ye awaken not, nor stir up love,5 until it please]...

...the Holy One, blessed be He, adjured Israel that they shall not rebel against the nations of the world...

R. Eleazar explained: The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Israel, 'If you will keep the adjuration, well and good; but if not, I will permit your flesh [to be a prey] like [that of] the gazelles and the hinds of the field'....
--Tractate Kesubos 111a
Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 111

From Your link:

"R. Eleazar said: Whoever is domiciled in the Land of Israel lives without sin, for it is said in Scripture, And the inhabitant shall not say, 'I am sick', the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.18 Said Raba19 to R. Ashi; We apply this [text]18 to those who suffer from disease."

"And spirit to them that work therein74 [teaches], said R. Jeremiah b. Abba in the name of R. Johanan, that whoever walks four cubits in the Land of Israel is assured of a place79 in the world to come".

 

[rylah]

"Another hint to the generations that all that happened to our father with Esav his brother will happen to us always with the sons of Esau, and it is fitting for us to take the path of a tzaddik to invite ourselves to the three things he has invited himself to prayer and gifts and to rescue through way of war to escape and be saved."

Nahmonides on Bereshit 32:2 (for link click on the Hebrew text)

Yes, war to escape, not to steal land or to simply murder God's children who believed differently.

I ask You again, why did G-d let them and thousands of tzaddikim to make Aliyah?
Why did G-d use a Zionist to save the Satmer rabbi?
Why did G-d gave us our enemies?

I am not your rabbi. I am just here posting from our bible and from our rabbis across time to illustrate that the zionists do not speak for the Jewish people.

I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, [that ye awaken not, nor stir up love,5 until it please]...

...the Holy One, blessed be He, adjured Israel that they shall not rebel against the nations of the world...

R. Eleazar explained: The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Israel, 'If you will keep the adjuration, well and good; but if not, I will permit your flesh [to be a prey] like [that of] the gazelles and the hinds of the field'....
--Tractate Kesubos 111a
Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 111

Baruch Hashem we're not abandoned, G-d's help and miracles in the wars of Israel suggest the opposite.

abi, just for context - I learn and take advise from a number of rabbis, 2 of them are anti-zionists. None of them side with NK, or that Israel should be dismantled, and none even mildly suggested that siding with Your people's enemy - is a virtue.

 

[abi]

Do I need to connect the dots for You?

No, I posted it, nobody but the zionists have oppressed Israel (Palestine) too much. Stop.

But, let's step back from scripture and see how the zionists, just the other day, have illuminated this point even further.

Israeli police target ultra-Orthodox protesters with weapon developed against Palestinians, and it stinks

Police make violent use of Skunk, ultra-Orthodox protesters say: 'It makes it impossible to breathe'

“It’s horrific, inhuman, it’s not clear how it’s possible to use it against human beings,” says Shlomo Frankel, one of the demonstrators. “Police brutality has now been joined by this stuff, which makes it impossible to breathe – it simply doesn’t come off your clothes or your skin.”

“They are violent toward us in every possible way.”I’m not surprised that it’s an Israeli invention – Israelis are skilled at doing harm and at coming up with violent instruments.”

It works by making people smell, vomit and walk around with a feeling of disgust. Why do they add the smell element if not to make people feel terrible and humiliate them?
Haaretz.Com

This is only one time out of several, where the zionists have attacked Jewish people... showing the same hatred that they show towards the Palestinians.

Sorry, these zionists will never speak for the Jewish people.

Didn't you recently attack the Talmud in your thread?

No, at least I don't believe so. And why does that matter on this thread where we are looking at Jewish law and determining if the zionists have any right at all to speak for the Jewish people?

 

[rylah]

Do I need to connect the dots for You?

No, I posted it, nobody but the zionists have oppressed Israel (Palestine) too much. Stop.

But, let's step back from scripture and see how the zionists, just the other day, have illuminated this point even further.

Israeli police target ultra-Orthodox protesters with weapon developed against Palestinians, and it stinks

Police make violent use of Skunk, ultra-Orthodox protesters say: 'It makes it impossible to breathe'

“It’s horrific, inhuman, it’s not clear how it’s possible to use it against human beings,” says Shlomo Frankel, one of the demonstrators. “Police brutality has now been joined by this stuff, which makes it impossible to breathe – it simply doesn’t come off your clothes or your skin.”

“They are violent toward us in every possible way.”I’m not surprised that it’s an Israeli invention – Israelis are skilled at doing harm and at coming up with violent instruments.”

It works by making people smell, vomit and walk around with a feeling of disgust. Why do they add the smell element if not to make people feel terrible and humiliate them?
Haaretz.Com

This is only one time out of several, where the zionists have attacked Jewish people... showing the same hatred that they show towards the Palestinians.

Sorry, these zionists will never speak for the Jewish people.

Didn't you recently attack the Talmud in your thread?

No, at least I don't believe so. And why does that matter on this thread where we are looking at Jewish law and determining if the zionists have any right at all to speak for the Jewish people?

So what ... if they wanna demonstrate - go out with a Shofar and awaken the WHOLE of Israel to outcry for redemption.
When You have a Jewish state, there's no running away from policing Jewish people - it doesn't make Israel illegitimate. Quiet the opposite.

Haaretz doesn't speak for the Jewish people, it speaks against them, and especially the orthodox.
But maybe You can tell me who does, in Your opinion, speak for the Jewish people.

Why should we step back from scripture abi?

 

[abi]

Why should we step back from scripture abi?

To show you the hatred that the zionists have towards the Jewish people. I'll post more scripture though if anyone is still left doubting.

 

[rylah]

Why should we step back from scripture abi?

To show you the hatred that the zionists have towards the Jewish people. I'll post more scripture though if anyone is still left doubting.

abi, give me a break... You're to obvious.

from day 1 You've been busy spreading antisemitic blood libels,
and promoting the destruction of Israel, while saying Jews are a fair game for Hamas.


So who DOES speak for the Jewish people?

 

[rylah]

They are all sourced in Jewish literature.

There is no doubt that traveling to the Holy Land is a meritorious act…but now, one of the Three Oaths G-d made the Jewish people swear is not to go up as a wall.
--Rabbi Yitzchak ben Sheishes (1326-1408)

The zionists went up as a wall, now go study!

Nope,
When did the whole Jewish nation ever try to go as a wall??
Be factual - year of departure and arrival.

Moreover, Maharal of Prague concluded:

"God prevents us from ascending as a wall, but when it is possible to ascend as a wall, a sign is canceled" (Ketuvot p. 119 קי"ב)

חידושי אגדות מהר"ל מפראג - חלק א - יהודה ליואי בן בצלאל, 1512-1609 (page 119 of 195)

Still waiting for the answer.