"The wealthiest in this country do not pay their fair share." [Bernie Sanders]

[frigidweirdo]

At the congressional level we do, we only use the EC for the president.



I just read information on PR and told you what it said, from what I read, it’s no better than what we have. They still use fptp and then general party elections, how is that better than what we have?

Well, no. The leader is the President. They don't directly elect the leader of the House or the Senate, they don't directly elect the President, or the leader of the Supreme Court.

Yes, you've read, you've failed to understand.

Do you think the CDU/CSU getting 37% of the vote in 2017 and getting 77% of the seats is "no better than" the CDU/CSU getting 32% of the vote (because only 32% of the people actually wanted to vote for them) and then getting 34% of the seats.

Which is better for you?

Probably the former because you like seeing "your party" win by cheating.

 

[ThisIsMe]

Well, no. The leader is the President. They don't directly elect the leader of the House or the Senate, they don't directly elect the President, or the leader of the Supreme Court.

Yes, you've read, you've failed to understand.

Do you think the CDU/CSU getting 37% of the vote in 2017 and getting 77% of the seats is "no better than" the CDU/CSU getting 32% of the vote (because only 32% of the people actually wanted to vote for them) and then getting 34% of the seats.

Which is better for you?

Probably the former because you like seeing "your party" win by cheating.

ok…

How does proportional representation work in Germany?

[Note: Germany updated their voting system for the 2025 election, and introduced new rules. You can find out about that in our article on the election]Elections to Germany’s Bundestag

electoral-reform.org.uk

German Bundestag - Election of the Federal President

www.bundestag.de

German citizens have 2 votes.

The first vote is for the voter’s local MP (see column on the left in the ballot paper below), and is elected through First Past the Post, as in the UK. This system tends to return few, large parties to the Bundestag and ensures – at least in theory – that there is a tight and direct link between voters and MPs.

Each Land (or state) elects a MP (member of parliament) using the first past the post system. The first one to get 50% if the vote is elected. This is not unlike what we have. Each district in each state votes for their candidate of choice using a polular vote system. The person with the most votes wins.

Then:

The second vote is for a party, not a single candidate (column on the right in the ballot paper below). This means that, as well as the winning candidate for local MP, each German state sends a team of MPs to the Bundestag, based on how much of the vote share they won. This vote is generally considered to be the most important as it determines the percentage of seats a party will get in the Bundestag and thus its relative strength. Each party publishes an ordered list of candidates in advance to fill these positions.

The second vote is to vote for a party. The number of members of parliament sent to Bundestag is determined by the proportion of the vote they get in the second vote. In this case, the people don’t have a choice, it’s basically a list of candidates that get sent to Bundestag based on the proportion of the votes they get in the second vote.

The first vote determines the election of 299 members of the Bundestag. As in the UK, candidates only need to obtain more votes in their district than anyone else in order to win (even if the majority did not vote for them), while votes for losing candidates are effectively wasted and do not count towards the election of any candidate.

Fptp

The second vote decides the allocation of the remaining 299 seats, which are filled in proportion to the share of parties’ votes in the election. The amount of local MPs won by the parties using the first vote is also taken into account. Unlike First Past the Post, no votes are lost in the list system as parties gain seats in relation to their share of the vote.

Party list.

If a party wins five local constituencies, but its fair share of MPs based on the second vote is eight MPs, the top three candidates on its list are elected.

So it appears the candidates on the party list are only there to fill out the number of share of MP it is allowed.

Now get this:

To prevent party fragmentation and small splinter parties from gaining representation, parties must obtain at least five percent of the vote (or three directly elected local MPs) in order to enter parliament.

So, not all parties can be represented, there has to be a minimum threshold. So, right there, you have a loss of representation (kind of like our 2 party system, just on a smaller scale)

Now, election if the federal president:

Every 5 years the federal convention is hosted.

The Federal Convention consists of all Members of the Bundestag and an equal number of members elected by the parliaments of the Länder.

So, all member is the Bundestag (parliament) and a number of members by the local parliaments.

The number of representatives which the individual Länder may send to the Federal Convention is calculated based on the population of each Land.

The number of representatives sent to the federal convention is based on the population of each state. Based on a calculation. I have no idea what that calculation is, can’t seem to find it, but I assume it’s reflection of a proportionality between the number of people voting and the number of candidates entered.

The Federal President is elected by secret ballot without any prior debate.

In theory, any German who is at least forty years old is eligible for election. Candidates may be proposed by any member of the Federal Convention.

If none of the candidates receives an absolute majority, i.e. more than half the votes, in the first and second ballots, a third ballot is held. In this case, a relative majority is sufficient: whoever receives the most votes wins. New candidates can also be nominated for the second and third ballots.

The federal election is held by secret ballot, and the candidate with the majority wins, however, if none of the candidates receive an absolute majority, a sufficient majority wins…in other words, the president too can be elected by fptp.

Now, there are similarities between the US and Germany here.

In Germany, the first vote is for the local MP, this would be similar to electing our representatives in each district and this is done via fptp in Germany, or by popular vote in America. Then the Germans vote a second time to just choose a party, which consists of declared candidates. All of these people, to me, resemble the delegates of the electoral college.

Then, when the federal convention happens, these MP (representatives) and their members elected by party list (delegates) vote in a secret ballot to elect their president, of whom requires a simple majority, or, if no majority is met, the one with the most number of votes (in other words, in Germany, the president doesn’t have to win the popular vote).

Correct me where I’m wrong, but both systems have their similarities, the only difference being that in Germany, you might have more parties represented in parliament (congress).

The United States adopted the Electoral College in 1787 primarily as a compromise during the Constitutional Convention to balance power between small and large states and avoid Congress choosing the President. It was designed to safeguard executive independence from the legislature, address slavery-related population concerns, and create a deliberative, state-centered election process rather than a direct popular vote. [1, 2, 3, 4]

In the US, originally, the people voted for their representatives who then chose the senators for each state, as well as choosing the delegates for the electoral college. In this method, the population was represented because people from each district in each state chose only their representative, who then had a say in the choosing of the senators and delegates.

In Germany, the difference is that the members of local parliament are sent to the convention to vote for their representatives who federal president, but this is similar to how the EC delegates are chosen, except rather than those delegates being chosen by a party list vote, they are chosen by the representatives who were directly elected by popular vote.

I think i got that right. Correct me where in went wrong

 

[frigidweirdo]

ok…

How does proportional representation work in Germany?

[Note: Germany updated their voting system for the 2025 election, and introduced new rules. You can find out about that in our article on the election]Elections to Germany’s Bundestag

electoral-reform.org.uk

German Bundestag - Election of the Federal President

www.bundestag.de

German citizens have 2 votes.



Each Land (or state) elects a MP (member of parliament) using the first past the post system. The first one to get 50% if the vote is elected. This is not unlike what we have. Each district in each state votes for their candidate of choice using a polular vote system. The person with the most votes wins.

Then:



The second vote is to vote for a party. The number of members of parliament sent to Bundestag is determined by the proportion of the vote they get in the second vote. In this case, the people don’t have a choice, it’s basically a list of candidates that get sent to Bundestag based on the proportion of the votes they get in the second vote.



Fptp



Party list.



So it appears the candidates on the party list are only there to fill out the number of share of MP it is allowed.

Now get this:



So, not all parties can be represented, there has to be a minimum threshold. So, right there, you have a loss of representation (kind of like our 2 party system, just on a smaller scale)

Now, election if the federal president:

Every 5 years the federal convention is hosted.



So, all member is the Bundestag (parliament) and a number of members by the local parliaments.



The number of representatives sent to the federal convention is based on the population of each state. Based on a calculation. I have no idea what that calculation is, can’t seem to find it, but I assume it’s reflection of a proportionality between the number of people voting and the number of candidates entered.



The federal election is held by secret ballot, and the candidate with the majority wins, however, if none of the candidates receive an absolute majority, a sufficient majority wins…in other words, the president too can be elected by fptp.

Now, there are similarities between the US and Germany here.

In Germany, the first vote is for the local MP, this would be similar to electing our representatives in each district and this is done via fptp in Germany, or by popular vote in America. Then the Germans vote a second time to just choose a party, which consists of declared candidates. All of these people, to me, resemble the delegates of the electoral college.

Then, when the federal convention happens, these MP (representatives) and their members elected by party list (delegates) vote in a secret ballot to elect their president, of whom requires a simple majority, or, if no majority is met, the one with the most number of votes (in other words, in Germany, the president doesn’t have to win the popular vote).

Correct me where I’m wrong, but both systems have their similarities, the only difference being that in Germany, you might have more parties represented in parliament (congress).



In the US, originally, the people voted for their representatives who then chose the senators for each state, as well as choosing the delegates for the electoral college. In this method, the population was represented because people from each district in each state chose only their representative, who then had a say in the choosing of the senators and delegates.

In Germany, the difference is that the members of local parliament are sent to the convention to vote for their representatives who federal president, but this is similar to how the EC delegates are chosen, except rather than those delegates being chosen by a party list vote, they are chosen by the representatives who were directly elected by popular vote.

I think i got that right. Correct me where in went wrong

Yeah, you got the mechanics right.

The president doesn't matter, it's ceremonial, nobody knows who the president of Germany is. So, forget all that and the electoral commission.

What matters is what actually happens.

As I've said before, in 2017 the CDU/CSU got 37% of the vote and 77% of the seats. In the UK the Tories kept getting elected but had less votes than the main two left wing parties who fragmented the vote for each other.
In the US it's just two parties.

When people know their vote matters, they will have a choice of who to vote for. People go to vote in the US and they feel they have two choices. Rep or Dem. So a lot of people vote negatively against one of these parties.

In Germany, if you want to punish the main party for what it did wrong, or for bad policies, you can continue to vote the same wing, but a different party. So you don't need to vote for the opposite of what you want, in order to punish those who are on your wing.

So, people have proper OVERSIGHT into politics. They punish those who don't listen. In the US it's almost impossible to punish.

The 2026 midterms look like people are going to punish Trump for being useless, but they either don't vote and get Dems or vote Dems and get Dems. Unless of course Trump can cheap sufficiently, which is even worse.

You CANNOT CHEAT in PR like you can in FPTP. If you diddle 1,000 votes in one constituency, you can win a seat you wouldn't have won. If you diddle 1,000 votes in PR there's no change.

Politicians' mentality has to change.

The mentality in the US is "money wins close seats". The amount of money going into Senate seats is as much as the whole German federal election. Ridiculous. And they're not spreading a message of "well, this is what this party is going to do" because each senator is in it for themselves, so they manipulate people.

Everyone in Germany knows what the 6 main parties stand for.

CDU/CSU tradition conservatism
SPD tradition left wing
AfD crazy Maga style right wing
Greens are green policies
FDP are center right
Die Link are further left

Obvious policies change, they have their identity, but individual policies can change.

Don't like the CDU/CSU, you have two other right wing parties to choose from. And it's very, VERY easy for a party to drop out altogether if they don't get the 5% threshold.

The difference here is HUGE.

From politicians on the take, using money to do the bidding of those willing to manipulate politics with money, to politicians having to listen to the people and do what the people want.