The unsustainability of "green" energy

[Old Rocks]

Two decades ago, we were told that the goal of solar for a dollar a watt was impossible. Now, they are installing 1.2 gigawatts of solar in Austin, Texas, for under 0.05 cents a watt.

Now, I have been working in a steel mill for about 15 years. And it is powered by the Bonneville Dam with a direct line to that source. However, we have a division, heat treating, that is on the common grid. A 2 megawatt/hr battery would protect the electronics in that division from the bumps on the line that create such havoc with our PLCs and drives. Also, in case of a grid failure, dropped transformer, ice storm, whatever, we could roll out what is in the furnaces and take the mill down softly.

Now, there are many square miles of roofs in the city in the form of warehouse and commercial roofs. Perfect place for thin film solar. So the city could produce much of the power that it uses during the day,.

 

[Old Rocks]

question : when all the oil has been burned when all the coal has been burned when all the gas has been burned when all the uranium has been used##

how do you compare a solarpanel to nothing ?

Get back to me in 200 years when the oil has been used up. Then you can come back 150 years after that for the coal, and then you can come back a couple of thousand years after that for the radioactives.

Were we to burn all the oil, coal, and natural gas, won't be anybody getting back with anybody else. A P-T event will ensue.

Horsepoo. The PETM was at least 7 degrees warmer than the present day and it was a Garden of Eden. Your extinction event bullshit, is just that, bullshit.

Dumbshit, I said P-T, as in Permian-Triassic. And it was far from a Garden of Eden. About a 95% loss of all species.

 

[westwall]

question : when all the oil has been burned when all the coal has been burned when all the gas has been burned when all the uranium has been used##

how do you compare a solarpanel to nothing ?

Get back to me in 200 years when the oil has been used up. Then you can come back 150 years after that for the coal, and then you can come back a couple of thousand years after that for the radioactives.

Were we to burn all the oil, coal, and natural gas, won't be anybody getting back with anybody else. A P-T event will ensue.

Horsepoo. The PETM was at least 7 degrees warmer than the present day and it was a Garden of Eden. Your extinction event bullshit, is just that, bullshit.

Dumbshit, I said P-T, as in Permian-Triassic. And it was far from a Garden of Eden. About a 95% loss of all species.

Yes, and the most likely cause was COLD, dumbfuck. Only you religious fanatics claim it was warmth.

 

[westwall]

Two decades ago, we were told that the goal of solar for a dollar a watt was impossible. Now, they are installing 1.2 gigawatts of solar in Austin, Texas, for under 0.05 cents a watt.

Now, I have been working in a steel mill for about 15 years. And it is powered by the Bonneville Dam with a direct line to that source. However, we have a division, heat treating, that is on the common grid. A 2 megawatt/hr battery would protect the electronics in that division from the bumps on the line that create such havoc with our PLCs and drives. Also, in case of a grid failure, dropped transformer, ice storm, whatever, we could roll out what is in the furnaces and take the mill down softly.

Now, there are many square miles of roofs in the city in the form of warehouse and commercial roofs. Perfect place for thin film solar. So the city could produce much of the power that it uses during the day,.

Oh gee, look at all the subsidies coming from non solar users to pay for those "low" rates.

How Much Does Solar Cost in Austin, TX? | EnergySage

 

[Old Rocks]

Two decades ago, we were told that the goal of solar for a dollar a watt was impossible. Now, they are installing 1.2 gigawatts of solar in Austin, Texas, for under 0.05 cents a watt.

Now, I have been working in a steel mill for about 15 years. And it is powered by the Bonneville Dam with a direct line to that source. However, we have a division, heat treating, that is on the common grid. A 2 megawatt/hr battery would protect the electronics in that division from the bumps on the line that create such havoc with our PLCs and drives. Also, in case of a grid failure, dropped transformer, ice storm, whatever, we could roll out what is in the furnaces and take the mill down softly.

Now, there are many square miles of roofs in the city in the form of warehouse and commercial roofs. Perfect place for thin film solar. So the city could produce much of the power that it uses during the day,.

Oh gee, look at all the subsidies coming from none solar users to pay for those "low" rates.

How Much Does Solar Cost in Austin, TX? | EnergySage

Apples and oranges, old man. I was pointing out utility rate solar.,

City of Austin gets 1.2GW of solar bids at less than 4c/kWh

Shalabi displayed the chart below showing an “exponentially declining curve” for PV projects in Texas.

“If you continue the curve, you can see that if the cost points continue along this sort of exponentially declining curve. We expect to see prices out in the future that are possibly below $20 a megawatt-hour,” he said.


Source: Austin Energy

As part of a resource plan approved by city officials in 2014, Austin Energy must procure 55 percent of its electricity from renewable resources by 2025. The utility plans to build 600 megawatts of utility-scale solar projects in the next few years in order to meet the target.

As the cost of solar continues to fall, and wind does the same, economics will drive there installation.

 

[Old Rocks]

question : when all the oil has been burned when all the coal has been burned when all the gas has been burned when all the uranium has been used##

how do you compare a solarpanel to nothing ?

Get back to me in 200 years when the oil has been used up. Then you can come back 150 years after that for the coal, and then you can come back a couple of thousand years after that for the radioactives.

Were we to burn all the oil, coal, and natural gas, won't be anybody getting back with anybody else. A P-T event will ensue.

Horsepoo. The PETM was at least 7 degrees warmer than the present day and it was a Garden of Eden. Your extinction event bullshit, is just that, bullshit.

Dumbshit, I said P-T, as in Permian-Triassic. And it was far from a Garden of Eden. About a 95% loss of all species.

Yes, and the most likely cause was COLD, dumbfuck. Only you religious fanatics claim it was warmth.

Cold and heat. Whiplash effect. Saw the same thing in the Younger Dryas on a smaller scale. Fast drop of 5 to 10 F, a decade to a century, extinctions of large mammals in North America. A thousand years later, a fast, decade to century, increase in temperature of the same magnitude, more extinctions of large mammals in North America. In fact, about 70% of the large mammals in North America went extinct during the Younger Dryas.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

toddsterpatriot is a conglomerate of diffrent bought people, hes not 1 person.

after reading enough of "his" its obviouse, toddsterpatriot is a construct from people who do propaganda

You've got counter data ?

Please provide it.

Otherwise, STFU.

 

[flacaltenn]

Two decades ago, we were told that the goal of solar for a dollar a watt was impossible. Now, they are installing 1.2 gigawatts of solar in Austin, Texas, for under 0.05 cents a watt.

Now, I have been working in a steel mill for about 15 years. And it is powered by the Bonneville Dam with a direct line to that source. However, we have a division, heat treating, that is on the common grid. A 2 megawatt/hr battery would protect the electronics in that division from the bumps on the line that create such havoc with our PLCs and drives. Also, in case of a grid failure, dropped transformer, ice storm, whatever, we could roll out what is in the furnaces and take the mill down softly.

Now, there are many square miles of roofs in the city in the form of warehouse and commercial roofs. Perfect place for thin film solar. So the city could produce much of the power that it uses during the day,.

You're confusing generation cost with installation cost on solar. Cannot believe EITHER figure unless you personally go over the books and see how they are cooked. Often the price of LAND is left out, or MAINTENANCE or Subsidies/Rebates not included.

You 2 MW-hr "back-up" is nothing more than a big UPS. That's not unusual. And it doesn't have to carry the ENTIRE PLANT. You're confusing "grid scale storage" claims with SOLELY filling the HUGE gaps in service from renewables.

In TRUTH GSStorage does MANY things, sometimes simultaneously. Like frequency regulation, or switching on the grid or covering the start-up time of a back-up generator. VERY RARELY does GSStorage mean filling in for the sketchy and UNPREDICTABLE performance of renewables for gaps longer than 20 minutes or so.

But they WANT to confuse the issue. Because it lifts the hearts of the faithful. Even Cali which has a GSS initiative is not planning for more than 1.8GW-hrs by 2030.. TOTAL -- on their grid. It's NOT for getting large grids thru the night or for consecutive days of bad wind performance. I don't know where you EVER got that idea.

 

[flacaltenn]

Two decades ago, we were told that the goal of solar for a dollar a watt was impossible. Now, they are installing 1.2 gigawatts of solar in Austin, Texas, for under 0.05 cents a watt.

Now, I have been working in a steel mill for about 15 years. And it is powered by the Bonneville Dam with a direct line to that source. However, we have a division, heat treating, that is on the common grid. A 2 megawatt/hr battery would protect the electronics in that division from the bumps on the line that create such havoc with our PLCs and drives. Also, in case of a grid failure, dropped transformer, ice storm, whatever, we could roll out what is in the furnaces and take the mill down softly.

Now, there are many square miles of roofs in the city in the form of warehouse and commercial roofs. Perfect place for thin film solar. So the city could produce much of the power that it uses during the day,.

Oh gee, look at all the subsidies coming from none solar users to pay for those "low" rates.

How Much Does Solar Cost in Austin, TX? | EnergySage

Holy crap. What a bargain !!!

 

[westwall]

Get back to me in 200 years when the oil has been used up. Then you can come back 150 years after that for the coal, and then you can come back a couple of thousand years after that for the radioactives.

Were we to burn all the oil, coal, and natural gas, won't be anybody getting back with anybody else. A P-T event will ensue.

Horsepoo. The PETM was at least 7 degrees warmer than the present day and it was a Garden of Eden. Your extinction event bullshit, is just that, bullshit.

Dumbshit, I said P-T, as in Permian-Triassic. And it was far from a Garden of Eden. About a 95% loss of all species.

Yes, and the most likely cause was COLD, dumbfuck. Only you religious fanatics claim it was warmth.

Cold and heat. Whiplash effect. Saw the same thing in the Younger Dryas on a smaller scale. Fast drop of 5 to 10 F, a decade to a century, extinctions of large mammals in North America. A thousand years later, a fast, decade to century, increase in temperature of the same magnitude, more extinctions of large mammals in North America. In fact, about 70% of the large mammals in North America went extinct during the Younger Dryas.

Like I said, horse poo. There is ample evidence of a global ice age that lasted for who know's how long. There is ZERO empirical evidence for warmth. None, null, zero, zilch. The only "evidence" for warmth is in those ridiculously bad computer models. They have no basis in reality.

 

[hauke]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

 

[Wry Catcher]

Don't get me wrong - "green" energy is a great concept. But so is cold fusion, automobiles that run on water, and a world without wars. Unfortunately, all of them are absurd pipe-dreams at this time.

The problem with "green" energy is the cost/benefit ratio. You have to spend millions of dollars to get the energy equivalent of a AAA battery (I'm exaggerating obviously but sadly not by a whole lot). Which makes it an unsustainable business venture. The federal government illegally invested half a billion dollars into Solyndra and they still went bankrupt.

Now, the world's largest renewable energy developer is also on the verge of bankruptcy as well. The government needs to get out of the green energy business and allow the private sector to fund all research and development. We're $19 trillion in debt because of illegal nonsense like that, and we can't afford to keep betting on a loser. Some day, technology will advance to the point where green energy will be a viable and brilliant solution. But that time is not now and pumping billions of dollars a year for over 4 decades now has yielded no ROI (and even if it had, it is still unconstitutional and that is all that matters).

World's largest renewable energy developer on verge of bankruptcy

I bet your great great grandpa saw the first horseless vehicle and yelled out, "get a horse".

You seriously think we want to drive this clown car


View attachment 87869


Instead of this

You're crazy

Since I was 21, I've always driven a van, Chevy, Dodge, Plymouth and recently a 2006 Odyssey and now a 2016 Odyssey. My fist car was a 1957, two door (210) Chevy Station Wagon which (gasp) my dad sold when I went on active duty. Why I surfed and Scuba Dove and needed the space to carry wet suits, boards and tanks the vans served as safari wagons on the CA Coast. A place to change, sleep and carry water and supplies which my wife and I still use when we go camping to Yosemite, Tahoe, and up the Coast from SF to Vancouver Island, down the coast to San Diego and East to Scottsdale to watch some spring training baseball.

All of which is evidence your post is a straw man, made of wet straw and dressed in an asbestos clothing, thus unable to burn.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Don't get me wrong - "green" energy is a great concept. But so is cold fusion, automobiles that run on water, and a world without wars. Unfortunately, all of them are absurd pipe-dreams at this time.

The problem with "green" energy is the cost/benefit ratio. You have to spend millions of dollars to get the energy equivalent of a AAA battery (I'm exaggerating obviously but sadly not by a whole lot). Which makes it an unsustainable business venture. The federal government illegally invested half a billion dollars into Solyndra and they still went bankrupt.

Now, the world's largest renewable energy developer is also on the verge of bankruptcy as well. The government needs to get out of the green energy business and allow the private sector to fund all research and development. We're $19 trillion in debt because of illegal nonsense like that, and we can't afford to keep betting on a loser. Some day, technology will advance to the point where green energy will be a viable and brilliant solution. But that time is not now and pumping billions of dollars a year for over 4 decades now has yielded no ROI (and even if it had, it is still unconstitutional and that is all that matters).

World's largest renewable energy developer on verge of bankruptcy

I bet your great great grandpa saw the first horseless vehicle and yelled out, "get a horse".

And NOW -- you're forcing us back to horses. Go figure.. Will reach a point where I prefer to take ole Charley into town than mess with those tiny "coal charged" electric carts.

There's no market for wind. You can't write a contract to provide XXX Megawatts on Tues afternoon. You don't run a Grid for the modern world on "Maybe Thurs for a couple hours"

And neither do you power any city on a summer night with Solar. When at 10PM the demand is 80% of what it was at NOON. BEST deal for solar is to reduce that Noon peak by 10 or 15%. That's it. That's all ya got. Except for Cuisanarts under the ocean to tear up sea life -- or Geothermal which is a dirty mining/fracking operation.

You can whine all ya want. That list of your "alternatives" are NOT alternatives.

Mr. Flacaltenn, you are truly full of shit on this subject.

https://www.innotap.com/2016/06/grid-scale-batteries-gain-ground-research-continues-seek-lower-cost/

In deregulated electricity markets like most of Texas, where the lowest cost means of generation wins out, energy storage largely remains too expensive. Still, battery projects are not unheard of; the power company AES Corp. and the transmission company Oncor launched one in Dallas to help regulate power.

“We definitely are at an acceleration point,” Jaffe said. “You’re starting to see project you wouldn’t call pilots anymore, big large projects.”

So far, energy storage has largely gravitated around lithium ion technology, the same form of battery used to power smartphones and laptops. Costs have come down fast as companies like Tesla and Panasonic refine the manufacturing process for use in cars and grid storage systems.

But as anyone with a smartphone knows, lithium ion’s lifespan is limited, with a steady loss of capacity as the years tick away. That might not be much of a problem for personal electronics or even cars, but power industry equipment is expected to last 20 years.

Instead, many scientists are turning towards what is known as flow battery technology, which stores energy by shifting electrical charges across liquids and is believed to have a lifespan of decades. Scientists at the federal Joint Center for Energy Storage Research have already committed to the technology for grid storage after spending more than three years exploring alternatives, Crabtree said.

“Everyone says batteries are at the place solar was 10 years ago,” he said. “As you know, the cost of solar has come down and the quality has gone up. Now they’re getting installed like mad.”

In a decade, the combination of wind, solar, and geothermal will, on the basis of economics, put fossil fuel and nuclear plants out of business. The developing storage technology guarantees that.

Not gonna happen,.. would be an enviro disaster if it did. You have no concept of what it takes to store DAYS of electricity when the wind don't blow. You can't power a steel mill from batteries for a day or a city of 40,000 for more than a couple hours.

Do the math. Do the economics.. You're listening to the dying gasps of an industry that has been overhyped and over-sold..

Oh those with no imagination and willful ignorance, in a word, conservative, ought to do some research before they broadcast foolishly. See:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

Keep in mind, the first cars need a crank to start (I hope that's not too abstract for the conservative set).

 

[Wyatt earp]

Don't get me wrong - "green" energy is a great concept. But so is cold fusion, automobiles that run on water, and a world without wars. Unfortunately, all of them are absurd pipe-dreams at this time.

The problem with "green" energy is the cost/benefit ratio. You have to spend millions of dollars to get the energy equivalent of a AAA battery (I'm exaggerating obviously but sadly not by a whole lot). Which makes it an unsustainable business venture. The federal government illegally invested half a billion dollars into Solyndra and they still went bankrupt.

Now, the world's largest renewable energy developer is also on the verge of bankruptcy as well. The government needs to get out of the green energy business and allow the private sector to fund all research and development. We're $19 trillion in debt because of illegal nonsense like that, and we can't afford to keep betting on a loser. Some day, technology will advance to the point where green energy will be a viable and brilliant solution. But that time is not now and pumping billions of dollars a year for over 4 decades now has yielded no ROI (and even if it had, it is still unconstitutional and that is all that matters).

World's largest renewable energy developer on verge of bankruptcy

I bet your great great grandpa saw the first horseless vehicle and yelled out, "get a horse".

You seriously think we want to drive this clown car


View attachment 87869


Instead of this

You're crazy

Since I was 21, I've always driven a van, Chevy, Dodge, Plymouth and recently a 2006 Odyssey and now a 2016 Odyssey. My fist car was a 1957, two door (210) Chevy Station Wagon which (gasp) my dad sold when I went on active duty. Why I surfed and Scuba Dove and needed the space to carry wet suits, boards and tanks the vans served as safari wagons on the CA Coast. A place to change, sleep and carry water and supplies which my wife and I still use when we go camping to Yosemite, Tahoe, and up the Coast from SF to Vancouver Island, down the coast to San Diego and East to Scottsdale to watch some spring training baseball.

All of which is evidence your post is a straw man, made of wet straw and dressed in an asbestos clothing, thus unable to burn.

A straw man???????


No one wants to drive piece of crap 125 year old technology electric cars.



.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Don't get me wrong - "green" energy is a great concept. But so is cold fusion, automobiles that run on water, and a world without wars. Unfortunately, all of them are absurd pipe-dreams at this time.

The problem with "green" energy is the cost/benefit ratio. You have to spend millions of dollars to get the energy equivalent of a AAA battery (I'm exaggerating obviously but sadly not by a whole lot). Which makes it an unsustainable business venture. The federal government illegally invested half a billion dollars into Solyndra and they still went bankrupt.

Now, the world's largest renewable energy developer is also on the verge of bankruptcy as well. The government needs to get out of the green energy business and allow the private sector to fund all research and development. We're $19 trillion in debt because of illegal nonsense like that, and we can't afford to keep betting on a loser. Some day, technology will advance to the point where green energy will be a viable and brilliant solution. But that time is not now and pumping billions of dollars a year for over 4 decades now has yielded no ROI (and even if it had, it is still unconstitutional and that is all that matters).

World's largest renewable energy developer on verge of bankruptcy

I bet your great great grandpa saw the first horseless vehicle and yelled out, "get a horse".

You seriously think we want to drive this clown car


View attachment 87869


Instead of this

You're crazy

Since I was 21, I've always driven a van, Chevy, Dodge, Plymouth and recently a 2006 Odyssey and now a 2016 Odyssey. My fist car was a 1957, two door (210) Chevy Station Wagon which (gasp) my dad sold when I went on active duty. Why I surfed and Scuba Dove and needed the space to carry wet suits, boards and tanks the vans served as safari wagons on the CA Coast. A place to change, sleep and carry water and supplies which my wife and I still use when we go camping to Yosemite, Tahoe, and up the Coast from SF to Vancouver Island, down the coast to San Diego and East to Scottsdale to watch some spring training baseball.

All of which is evidence your post is a straw man, made of wet straw and dressed in an asbestos clothing, thus unable to burn.

A straw man???????


No one wants to drive piece of crap 125 year old technology electric cars.



.

Have you driven a Tesla? Why do you claim to speak for everyone, do you think (LOL) you are all knowing (you're not).

Have you even driven a golf cart, in use for decades?

Were you so engrossed in Fox News you missed the flight of an electric solar powered Air Craft?

Have you noticed solar panels on homes becoming more and more common? Have you never flown a kite, sailed under wind power or tried to run into the wind?

Have you ever seen a windmill?

Do you know the difference between potential and kinetic energy?



Did you read this:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

 

[Wyatt earp]

Don't get me wrong - "green" energy is a great concept. But so is cold fusion, automobiles that run on water, and a world without wars. Unfortunately, all of them are absurd pipe-dreams at this time.

The problem with "green" energy is the cost/benefit ratio. You have to spend millions of dollars to get the energy equivalent of a AAA battery (I'm exaggerating obviously but sadly not by a whole lot). Which makes it an unsustainable business venture. The federal government illegally invested half a billion dollars into Solyndra and they still went bankrupt.

Now, the world's largest renewable energy developer is also on the verge of bankruptcy as well. The government needs to get out of the green energy business and allow the private sector to fund all research and development. We're $19 trillion in debt because of illegal nonsense like that, and we can't afford to keep betting on a loser. Some day, technology will advance to the point where green energy will be a viable and brilliant solution. But that time is not now and pumping billions of dollars a year for over 4 decades now has yielded no ROI (and even if it had, it is still unconstitutional and that is all that matters).

World's largest renewable energy developer on verge of bankruptcy

I bet your great great grandpa saw the first horseless vehicle and yelled out, "get a horse".

You seriously think we want to drive this clown car


View attachment 87869


Instead of this

You're crazy

Since I was 21, I've always driven a van, Chevy, Dodge, Plymouth and recently a 2006 Odyssey and now a 2016 Odyssey. My fist car was a 1957, two door (210) Chevy Station Wagon which (gasp) my dad sold when I went on active duty. Why I surfed and Scuba Dove and needed the space to carry wet suits, boards and tanks the vans served as safari wagons on the CA Coast. A place to change, sleep and carry water and supplies which my wife and I still use when we go camping to Yosemite, Tahoe, and up the Coast from SF to Vancouver Island, down the coast to San Diego and East to Scottsdale to watch some spring training baseball.

All of which is evidence your post is a straw man, made of wet straw and dressed in an asbestos clothing, thus unable to burn.

A straw man???????


No one wants to drive piece of crap 125 year old technology electric cars.



.

Have you driven a Tesla? Why do you claim to speak for everyone, do you think (LOL) you are all knowing (you're not).

Have you even driven a golf cart, in use for decades?

Were you so engrossed in Fox News you missed the flight of an electric solar powered Air Craft?

Have you noticed solar panels on homes becoming more and more common? Have you never flown a kite, sailed under wind power or tried to run into the wind?

Have you ever seen a windmill?

Do you know the difference between potential and kinetic energy?



Did you read this:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

What you mad that electric cars is almost 200 year old technology?



Feel the bear513 burn....


Btw you think an electric could out preform a diesel one of these?

 

[westwall]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

You clearly have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Energy transmission across vast distances requires extremely high voltages to do. Voltages you don't get from wind or solar. Might I suggest you actually learn about what you're spewing. Here's a homework problem for you. How long would it take to recharge a Tesla using just solar power?

 

[westwall]

Don't get me wrong - "green" energy is a great concept. But so is cold fusion, automobiles that run on water, and a world without wars. Unfortunately, all of them are absurd pipe-dreams at this time.

The problem with "green" energy is the cost/benefit ratio. You have to spend millions of dollars to get the energy equivalent of a AAA battery (I'm exaggerating obviously but sadly not by a whole lot). Which makes it an unsustainable business venture. The federal government illegally invested half a billion dollars into Solyndra and they still went bankrupt.

Now, the world's largest renewable energy developer is also on the verge of bankruptcy as well. The government needs to get out of the green energy business and allow the private sector to fund all research and development. We're $19 trillion in debt because of illegal nonsense like that, and we can't afford to keep betting on a loser. Some day, technology will advance to the point where green energy will be a viable and brilliant solution. But that time is not now and pumping billions of dollars a year for over 4 decades now has yielded no ROI (and even if it had, it is still unconstitutional and that is all that matters).

World's largest renewable energy developer on verge of bankruptcy

I bet your great great grandpa saw the first horseless vehicle and yelled out, "get a horse".

And NOW -- you're forcing us back to horses. Go figure.. Will reach a point where I prefer to take ole Charley into town than mess with those tiny "coal charged" electric carts.

There's no market for wind. You can't write a contract to provide XXX Megawatts on Tues afternoon. You don't run a Grid for the modern world on "Maybe Thurs for a couple hours"

And neither do you power any city on a summer night with Solar. When at 10PM the demand is 80% of what it was at NOON. BEST deal for solar is to reduce that Noon peak by 10 or 15%. That's it. That's all ya got. Except for Cuisanarts under the ocean to tear up sea life -- or Geothermal which is a dirty mining/fracking operation.

You can whine all ya want. That list of your "alternatives" are NOT alternatives.

Mr. Flacaltenn, you are truly full of shit on this subject.

https://www.innotap.com/2016/06/grid-scale-batteries-gain-ground-research-continues-seek-lower-cost/

In deregulated electricity markets like most of Texas, where the lowest cost means of generation wins out, energy storage largely remains too expensive. Still, battery projects are not unheard of; the power company AES Corp. and the transmission company Oncor launched one in Dallas to help regulate power.

“We definitely are at an acceleration point,” Jaffe said. “You’re starting to see project you wouldn’t call pilots anymore, big large projects.”

So far, energy storage has largely gravitated around lithium ion technology, the same form of battery used to power smartphones and laptops. Costs have come down fast as companies like Tesla and Panasonic refine the manufacturing process for use in cars and grid storage systems.

But as anyone with a smartphone knows, lithium ion’s lifespan is limited, with a steady loss of capacity as the years tick away. That might not be much of a problem for personal electronics or even cars, but power industry equipment is expected to last 20 years.

Instead, many scientists are turning towards what is known as flow battery technology, which stores energy by shifting electrical charges across liquids and is believed to have a lifespan of decades. Scientists at the federal Joint Center for Energy Storage Research have already committed to the technology for grid storage after spending more than three years exploring alternatives, Crabtree said.

“Everyone says batteries are at the place solar was 10 years ago,” he said. “As you know, the cost of solar has come down and the quality has gone up. Now they’re getting installed like mad.”

In a decade, the combination of wind, solar, and geothermal will, on the basis of economics, put fossil fuel and nuclear plants out of business. The developing storage technology guarantees that.

Not gonna happen,.. would be an enviro disaster if it did. You have no concept of what it takes to store DAYS of electricity when the wind don't blow. You can't power a steel mill from batteries for a day or a city of 40,000 for more than a couple hours.

Do the math. Do the economics.. You're listening to the dying gasps of an industry that has been overhyped and over-sold..

Oh those with no imagination and willful ignorance, in a word, conservative, ought to do some research before they broadcast foolishly. See:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

Keep in mind, the first cars need a crank to start (I hope that's not too abstract for the conservative set).

The problem that you have is you clearly don't know how to read. This is the important part of your link. I've colored and blown up the most important word. What does that word "believes" mean to you? This is what it means to me....they haven't even tried it yet. Given where they are, they could have actually done a real, like you know...test. Or something like that...but no, they "believe" it is something awesome. This is the biggest problem that you green energy nitwits have. Some guy can blow a bunch of smoke up your ass and you believe everything. The only "green" energy system that actually works scaled up for industrial usage is hydro-electric. Hydrothermal has a good chance to work, but it uses horror of horrors fracking to work. You anti frackers probably have a conniption when that fact is pointed out to you.



"The technology would work best if the industry focuses on concentrated solar power (CSP). Using solar concentrators, high temperatures at a single location can be achieved fast and efficient. The team from MIST believes that concentrated solar energy can be stored in the form of thermal energy only through the absorption qualities of the fine sand particles.

 

[flacaltenn]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

Really? we're into sunsets and sunrises to do this? You know anything about the efficiencies of transporting electricity 1000s of miles thru wires, transformers, and switching?

This is the fairy princess approach to powering a formerly great country..

 

[flacaltenn]

Don't get me wrong - "green" energy is a great concept. But so is cold fusion, automobiles that run on water, and a world without wars. Unfortunately, all of them are absurd pipe-dreams at this time.

The problem with "green" energy is the cost/benefit ratio. You have to spend millions of dollars to get the energy equivalent of a AAA battery (I'm exaggerating obviously but sadly not by a whole lot). Which makes it an unsustainable business venture. The federal government illegally invested half a billion dollars into Solyndra and they still went bankrupt.

Now, the world's largest renewable energy developer is also on the verge of bankruptcy as well. The government needs to get out of the green energy business and allow the private sector to fund all research and development. We're $19 trillion in debt because of illegal nonsense like that, and we can't afford to keep betting on a loser. Some day, technology will advance to the point where green energy will be a viable and brilliant solution. But that time is not now and pumping billions of dollars a year for over 4 decades now has yielded no ROI (and even if it had, it is still unconstitutional and that is all that matters).

World's largest renewable energy developer on verge of bankruptcy

I bet your great great grandpa saw the first horseless vehicle and yelled out, "get a horse".

And NOW -- you're forcing us back to horses. Go figure.. Will reach a point where I prefer to take ole Charley into town than mess with those tiny "coal charged" electric carts.

There's no market for wind. You can't write a contract to provide XXX Megawatts on Tues afternoon. You don't run a Grid for the modern world on "Maybe Thurs for a couple hours"

And neither do you power any city on a summer night with Solar. When at 10PM the demand is 80% of what it was at NOON. BEST deal for solar is to reduce that Noon peak by 10 or 15%. That's it. That's all ya got. Except for Cuisanarts under the ocean to tear up sea life -- or Geothermal which is a dirty mining/fracking operation.

You can whine all ya want. That list of your "alternatives" are NOT alternatives.

Mr. Flacaltenn, you are truly full of shit on this subject.

https://www.innotap.com/2016/06/grid-scale-batteries-gain-ground-research-continues-seek-lower-cost/

In deregulated electricity markets like most of Texas, where the lowest cost means of generation wins out, energy storage largely remains too expensive. Still, battery projects are not unheard of; the power company AES Corp. and the transmission company Oncor launched one in Dallas to help regulate power.

“We definitely are at an acceleration point,” Jaffe said. “You’re starting to see project you wouldn’t call pilots anymore, big large projects.”

So far, energy storage has largely gravitated around lithium ion technology, the same form of battery used to power smartphones and laptops. Costs have come down fast as companies like Tesla and Panasonic refine the manufacturing process for use in cars and grid storage systems.

But as anyone with a smartphone knows, lithium ion’s lifespan is limited, with a steady loss of capacity as the years tick away. That might not be much of a problem for personal electronics or even cars, but power industry equipment is expected to last 20 years.

Instead, many scientists are turning towards what is known as flow battery technology, which stores energy by shifting electrical charges across liquids and is believed to have a lifespan of decades. Scientists at the federal Joint Center for Energy Storage Research have already committed to the technology for grid storage after spending more than three years exploring alternatives, Crabtree said.

“Everyone says batteries are at the place solar was 10 years ago,” he said. “As you know, the cost of solar has come down and the quality has gone up. Now they’re getting installed like mad.”

In a decade, the combination of wind, solar, and geothermal will, on the basis of economics, put fossil fuel and nuclear plants out of business. The developing storage technology guarantees that.

Not gonna happen,.. would be an enviro disaster if it did. You have no concept of what it takes to store DAYS of electricity when the wind don't blow. You can't power a steel mill from batteries for a day or a city of 40,000 for more than a couple hours.

Do the math. Do the economics.. You're listening to the dying gasps of an industry that has been overhyped and over-sold..

Oh those with no imagination and willful ignorance, in a word, conservative, ought to do some research before they broadcast foolishly. See:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

Keep in mind, the first cars need a crank to start (I hope that's not too abstract for the conservative set).

Would be nice to see the environmental impact statement of making 100 acres of desert glow red for a few hours every day.. Wouldn't it?

What you DON'T know --- is that the CSP (concentrated solar or "death ray" technology) that would USE this approach is already failing to produce anywhere close to modeling and estimates. There has a been a fair trial of this solar variant and the results are dismal. .Look up IvanPah for instance. You HAVE NO excess to store in the sand --- if your actual generation is 40% of what folks paid for..


And "sand storage" does NOT couple well with the majority of solar generation which is PV panels. Wouldn't work to convert electricity to heat and back again.

So there you are ---- BARELY paying attention to the details, and telling tech folks like myself that I just need more childish OPTIMISM and HOPE. When YOU --- have no freakin' idea how any of this works or is related.