The unsustainability of "green" energy

[hauke]

20 years ago i realized that cars that use gazoline or disel fuel are really bad for earth, i sold my car and for the last 20 years i haven t driven a car and the last time i used a plane was 13 years ago

 

[hauke]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

Really? we're into sunsets and sunrises to do this? You know anything about the efficiencies of transporting electricity 1000s of miles thru wires, transformers, and switching?

This is the fairy princess approach to powering a formerly great country..

theres a USA company which has developed superconducting wire for energy transmisson

this company is capable of producing intercontinental superconducting transmisson wires capable of transmiting electric energy across 10 000 km with 1% loss

 

[hauke]

maybe the USA should build a 21 century grid

 

[flacaltenn]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

Really? we're into sunsets and sunrises to do this? You know anything about the efficiencies of transporting electricity 1000s of miles thru wires, transformers, and switching?

This is the fairy princess approach to powering a formerly great country..

theres a USA company which has developed superconducting wire for energy transmisson

this company is capable of producing intercontinental superconducting transmisson wires capable of transmiting electric energy across 10 000 km with 1% loss

Anyone ACTUALLY TESTED 10,000 km with 1% loss? With all the other grid component gear IN PLACE??

 

[Wry Catcher]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

You clearly have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Energy transmission across vast distances requires extremely high voltages to do. Voltages you don't get from wind or solar. Might I suggest you actually learn about what you're spewing. Here's a homework problem for you. How long would it take to recharge a Tesla using just solar power?

Today or tomorrow? Remember the first bicycle, the one with the huge front wheel? Evolution is not restricted to biology, it is ever present in technology (remember the Commodore 64?). We see Tesla and Volt (Chevy) cars, and hybrid cars galore on our highways in CA. My wife drives a Prius which is nearly as common in the Bay Area as the VW Bug was in the 1960's.

Why does the New Right seek to protect Coal and Oil / NG and claim it to be superior to any every other source of energy? Job security, fear of change or ignorance?

 

[Wry Catcher]

I bet your great great grandpa saw the first horseless vehicle and yelled out, "get a horse".

And NOW -- you're forcing us back to horses. Go figure.. Will reach a point where I prefer to take ole Charley into town than mess with those tiny "coal charged" electric carts.

There's no market for wind. You can't write a contract to provide XXX Megawatts on Tues afternoon. You don't run a Grid for the modern world on "Maybe Thurs for a couple hours"

And neither do you power any city on a summer night with Solar. When at 10PM the demand is 80% of what it was at NOON. BEST deal for solar is to reduce that Noon peak by 10 or 15%. That's it. That's all ya got. Except for Cuisanarts under the ocean to tear up sea life -- or Geothermal which is a dirty mining/fracking operation.

You can whine all ya want. That list of your "alternatives" are NOT alternatives.

Mr. Flacaltenn, you are truly full of shit on this subject.

https://www.innotap.com/2016/06/grid-scale-batteries-gain-ground-research-continues-seek-lower-cost/

In deregulated electricity markets like most of Texas, where the lowest cost means of generation wins out, energy storage largely remains too expensive. Still, battery projects are not unheard of; the power company AES Corp. and the transmission company Oncor launched one in Dallas to help regulate power.

“We definitely are at an acceleration point,” Jaffe said. “You’re starting to see project you wouldn’t call pilots anymore, big large projects.”

So far, energy storage has largely gravitated around lithium ion technology, the same form of battery used to power smartphones and laptops. Costs have come down fast as companies like Tesla and Panasonic refine the manufacturing process for use in cars and grid storage systems.

But as anyone with a smartphone knows, lithium ion’s lifespan is limited, with a steady loss of capacity as the years tick away. That might not be much of a problem for personal electronics or even cars, but power industry equipment is expected to last 20 years.

Instead, many scientists are turning towards what is known as flow battery technology, which stores energy by shifting electrical charges across liquids and is believed to have a lifespan of decades. Scientists at the federal Joint Center for Energy Storage Research have already committed to the technology for grid storage after spending more than three years exploring alternatives, Crabtree said.

“Everyone says batteries are at the place solar was 10 years ago,” he said. “As you know, the cost of solar has come down and the quality has gone up. Now they’re getting installed like mad.”

In a decade, the combination of wind, solar, and geothermal will, on the basis of economics, put fossil fuel and nuclear plants out of business. The developing storage technology guarantees that.

Not gonna happen,.. would be an enviro disaster if it did. You have no concept of what it takes to store DAYS of electricity when the wind don't blow. You can't power a steel mill from batteries for a day or a city of 40,000 for more than a couple hours.

Do the math. Do the economics.. You're listening to the dying gasps of an industry that has been overhyped and over-sold..

Oh those with no imagination and willful ignorance, in a word, conservative, ought to do some research before they broadcast foolishly. See:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

Keep in mind, the first cars need a crank to start (I hope that's not too abstract for the conservative set).

Would be nice to see the environmental impact statement of making 100 acres of desert glow red for a few hours every day.. Wouldn't it?

What you DON'T know --- is that the CSP (concentrated solar or "death ray" technology) that would USE this approach is already failing to produce anywhere close to modeling and estimates. There has a been a fair trial of this solar variant and the results are dismal. .Look up IvanPah for instance. You HAVE NO excess to store in the sand --- if your actual generation is 40% of what folks paid for..


And "sand storage" does NOT couple well with the majority of solar generation which is PV panels. Wouldn't work to convert electricity to heat and back again.

So there you are ---- BARELY paying attention to the details, and telling tech folks like myself that I just need more childish OPTIMISM and HOPE. When YOU --- have no freakin' idea how any of this works or is related.

How many efforts failed in the development of heavier than air vehicles? How many rockets blew up on the launching pad before we went men to the moon?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

You clearly have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Energy transmission across vast distances requires extremely high voltages to do. Voltages you don't get from wind or solar. Might I suggest you actually learn about what you're spewing. Here's a homework problem for you. How long would it take to recharge a Tesla using just solar power?

Today or tomorrow? Remember the first bicycle, the one with the huge front wheel? Evolution is not restricted to biology, it is ever present in technology (remember the Commodore 64?). We see Tesla and Volt (Chevy) cars, and hybrid cars galore on our highways in CA. My wife drives a Prius which is nearly as common in the Bay Area as the VW Bug was in the 1960's.

Why does the New Right seek to protect Coal and Oil / NG and claim it to be superior to any every other source of energy? Job security, fear of change or ignorance?

Why does the New Right seek to protect Coal and Oil / NG and claim it to be superior to any every other source of energy?

Why does the Progressive Left continue to fear nuclear energy when it is clearly the best source of reliable CO2-free energy in useful amounts? Is it fear of change or ignorance?
It's our only hope to save the planet from killer warming, right?

 

[westwall]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

You clearly have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Energy transmission across vast distances requires extremely high voltages to do. Voltages you don't get from wind or solar. Might I suggest you actually learn about what you're spewing. Here's a homework problem for you. How long would it take to recharge a Tesla using just solar power?

Today or tomorrow? Remember the first bicycle, the one with the huge front wheel? Evolution is not restricted to biology, it is ever present in technology (remember the Commodore 64?). We see Tesla and Volt (Chevy) cars, and hybrid cars galore on our highways in CA. My wife drives a Prius which is nearly as common in the Bay Area as the VW Bug was in the 1960's.

Why does the New Right seek to protect Coal and Oil / NG and claim it to be superior to any every other source of energy? Job security, fear of change or ignorance?

What does any of this blabber have to do with my question? The problem you have dear child, is you have no clue what you are talking about. None. Ultra-High voltage DC which is used for long range transportation of energy is governed by this thing called "physics". Technology allows us to that which physics dictates, we can't go beyond. Thus, this mindless appeal the "technology" will save us, while true in many instances doesn't work in this case because physical laws are not changeable.

 

[westwall]

And NOW -- you're forcing us back to horses. Go figure.. Will reach a point where I prefer to take ole Charley into town than mess with those tiny "coal charged" electric carts.

There's no market for wind. You can't write a contract to provide XXX Megawatts on Tues afternoon. You don't run a Grid for the modern world on "Maybe Thurs for a couple hours"

And neither do you power any city on a summer night with Solar. When at 10PM the demand is 80% of what it was at NOON. BEST deal for solar is to reduce that Noon peak by 10 or 15%. That's it. That's all ya got. Except for Cuisanarts under the ocean to tear up sea life -- or Geothermal which is a dirty mining/fracking operation.

You can whine all ya want. That list of your "alternatives" are NOT alternatives.

Mr. Flacaltenn, you are truly full of shit on this subject.

https://www.innotap.com/2016/06/grid-scale-batteries-gain-ground-research-continues-seek-lower-cost/

In deregulated electricity markets like most of Texas, where the lowest cost means of generation wins out, energy storage largely remains too expensive. Still, battery projects are not unheard of; the power company AES Corp. and the transmission company Oncor launched one in Dallas to help regulate power.

“We definitely are at an acceleration point,” Jaffe said. “You’re starting to see project you wouldn’t call pilots anymore, big large projects.”

So far, energy storage has largely gravitated around lithium ion technology, the same form of battery used to power smartphones and laptops. Costs have come down fast as companies like Tesla and Panasonic refine the manufacturing process for use in cars and grid storage systems.

But as anyone with a smartphone knows, lithium ion’s lifespan is limited, with a steady loss of capacity as the years tick away. That might not be much of a problem for personal electronics or even cars, but power industry equipment is expected to last 20 years.

Instead, many scientists are turning towards what is known as flow battery technology, which stores energy by shifting electrical charges across liquids and is believed to have a lifespan of decades. Scientists at the federal Joint Center for Energy Storage Research have already committed to the technology for grid storage after spending more than three years exploring alternatives, Crabtree said.

“Everyone says batteries are at the place solar was 10 years ago,” he said. “As you know, the cost of solar has come down and the quality has gone up. Now they’re getting installed like mad.”

In a decade, the combination of wind, solar, and geothermal will, on the basis of economics, put fossil fuel and nuclear plants out of business. The developing storage technology guarantees that.

Not gonna happen,.. would be an enviro disaster if it did. You have no concept of what it takes to store DAYS of electricity when the wind don't blow. You can't power a steel mill from batteries for a day or a city of 40,000 for more than a couple hours.

Do the math. Do the economics.. You're listening to the dying gasps of an industry that has been overhyped and over-sold..

Oh those with no imagination and willful ignorance, in a word, conservative, ought to do some research before they broadcast foolishly. See:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

Keep in mind, the first cars need a crank to start (I hope that's not too abstract for the conservative set).

Would be nice to see the environmental impact statement of making 100 acres of desert glow red for a few hours every day.. Wouldn't it?

What you DON'T know --- is that the CSP (concentrated solar or "death ray" technology) that would USE this approach is already failing to produce anywhere close to modeling and estimates. There has a been a fair trial of this solar variant and the results are dismal. .Look up IvanPah for instance. You HAVE NO excess to store in the sand --- if your actual generation is 40% of what folks paid for..


And "sand storage" does NOT couple well with the majority of solar generation which is PV panels. Wouldn't work to convert electricity to heat and back again.

So there you are ---- BARELY paying attention to the details, and telling tech folks like myself that I just need more childish OPTIMISM and HOPE. When YOU --- have no freakin' idea how any of this works or is related.

How many efforts failed in the development of heavier than air vehicles? How many rockets blew up on the launching pad before we went men to the moon?

All of which risked small numbers of people, and treasure. You, on the other hand, wish to cast the whole world into a system wide failure. Where energy is available 24/7 to only the very wealthy, and where the entirety of the population of the Earth is cast into poverty. Yeppers, that's a real compelling argument you have there dude.

 

[westwall]

20 years ago i realized that cars that use gazoline or disel fuel are really bad for earth, i sold my car and for the last 20 years i haven t driven a car and the last time i used a plane was 13 years ago

Thanks you for your sacrifice. Leo Dicrapio is pleased that you are a martyr for his cause. Now, get out of his way so he can jet off to some far away land to bed his latest conquest.

 

[flacaltenn]

And NOW -- you're forcing us back to horses. Go figure.. Will reach a point where I prefer to take ole Charley into town than mess with those tiny "coal charged" electric carts.

There's no market for wind. You can't write a contract to provide XXX Megawatts on Tues afternoon. You don't run a Grid for the modern world on "Maybe Thurs for a couple hours"

And neither do you power any city on a summer night with Solar. When at 10PM the demand is 80% of what it was at NOON. BEST deal for solar is to reduce that Noon peak by 10 or 15%. That's it. That's all ya got. Except for Cuisanarts under the ocean to tear up sea life -- or Geothermal which is a dirty mining/fracking operation.

You can whine all ya want. That list of your "alternatives" are NOT alternatives.

Mr. Flacaltenn, you are truly full of shit on this subject.

https://www.innotap.com/2016/06/grid-scale-batteries-gain-ground-research-continues-seek-lower-cost/

In deregulated electricity markets like most of Texas, where the lowest cost means of generation wins out, energy storage largely remains too expensive. Still, battery projects are not unheard of; the power company AES Corp. and the transmission company Oncor launched one in Dallas to help regulate power.

“We definitely are at an acceleration point,” Jaffe said. “You’re starting to see project you wouldn’t call pilots anymore, big large projects.”

So far, energy storage has largely gravitated around lithium ion technology, the same form of battery used to power smartphones and laptops. Costs have come down fast as companies like Tesla and Panasonic refine the manufacturing process for use in cars and grid storage systems.

But as anyone with a smartphone knows, lithium ion’s lifespan is limited, with a steady loss of capacity as the years tick away. That might not be much of a problem for personal electronics or even cars, but power industry equipment is expected to last 20 years.

Instead, many scientists are turning towards what is known as flow battery technology, which stores energy by shifting electrical charges across liquids and is believed to have a lifespan of decades. Scientists at the federal Joint Center for Energy Storage Research have already committed to the technology for grid storage after spending more than three years exploring alternatives, Crabtree said.

“Everyone says batteries are at the place solar was 10 years ago,” he said. “As you know, the cost of solar has come down and the quality has gone up. Now they’re getting installed like mad.”

In a decade, the combination of wind, solar, and geothermal will, on the basis of economics, put fossil fuel and nuclear plants out of business. The developing storage technology guarantees that.

Not gonna happen,.. would be an enviro disaster if it did. You have no concept of what it takes to store DAYS of electricity when the wind don't blow. You can't power a steel mill from batteries for a day or a city of 40,000 for more than a couple hours.

Do the math. Do the economics.. You're listening to the dying gasps of an industry that has been overhyped and over-sold..

Oh those with no imagination and willful ignorance, in a word, conservative, ought to do some research before they broadcast foolishly. See:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

Keep in mind, the first cars need a crank to start (I hope that's not too abstract for the conservative set).

Would be nice to see the environmental impact statement of making 100 acres of desert glow red for a few hours every day.. Wouldn't it?

What you DON'T know --- is that the CSP (concentrated solar or "death ray" technology) that would USE this approach is already failing to produce anywhere close to modeling and estimates. There has a been a fair trial of this solar variant and the results are dismal. .Look up IvanPah for instance. You HAVE NO excess to store in the sand --- if your actual generation is 40% of what folks paid for..


And "sand storage" does NOT couple well with the majority of solar generation which is PV panels. Wouldn't work to convert electricity to heat and back again.

So there you are ---- BARELY paying attention to the details, and telling tech folks like myself that I just need more childish OPTIMISM and HOPE. When YOU --- have no freakin' idea how any of this works or is related.

How many efforts failed in the development of heavier than air vehicles? How many rockets blew up on the launching pad before we went men to the moon?

Nawww.. We are WAY past those analogies with solar and wind. We have MUCH BETTER solar panels on the Mars Rovers. FAR superior to what's used for commercial power. WE KNOW how to make better panels. In this case -- you'd have to mine every ARSENIC resource on the planet to provide enough GA-Arsenside to produce them. And leftist enviros would PROBABLY excuse that. But even then -- the cost would 4 or 5 times more than Silicon panels.

Rockets STILL blow up on the pads. It's not a measure of tech development. And there are DETAILS to the tech that greenies have no clues about. Like making the sand glow for 4 hours a day.

THere are no ALTERNATIVES on the list. Just a bunch of supplements. And we could push those supplements in BETTER DIRECTIONS --- than by forcing them to replace reliable 24/7/365 power generation. Things like renewable powered desalinization and hydrogen fuel production --- where the STORAGE is inherent in the process itself..

 

[flacaltenn]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

You clearly have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Energy transmission across vast distances requires extremely high voltages to do. Voltages you don't get from wind or solar. Might I suggest you actually learn about what you're spewing. Here's a homework problem for you. How long would it take to recharge a Tesla using just solar power?

Today or tomorrow? Remember the first bicycle, the one with the huge front wheel? Evolution is not restricted to biology, it is ever present in technology (remember the Commodore 64?). We see Tesla and Volt (Chevy) cars, and hybrid cars galore on our highways in CA. My wife drives a Prius which is nearly as common in the Bay Area as the VW Bug was in the 1960's.

Why does the New Right seek to protect Coal and Oil / NG and claim it to be superior to any every other source of energy? Job security, fear of change or ignorance?

Nobody behind THIS keyboard is protecting Coal. I'd like to see most coal replaced by nuclear --- like tomorrow. And instead of finding ginormous additional grid capacity for charging battery cars -- I'd like to see hydrogen fuel cells.. We're not the ones STUCK on stupid when it comes to alternatives.

 

[Wry Catcher]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

You clearly have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Energy transmission across vast distances requires extremely high voltages to do. Voltages you don't get from wind or solar. Might I suggest you actually learn about what you're spewing. Here's a homework problem for you. How long would it take to recharge a Tesla using just solar power?

Today or tomorrow? Remember the first bicycle, the one with the huge front wheel? Evolution is not restricted to biology, it is ever present in technology (remember the Commodore 64?). We see Tesla and Volt (Chevy) cars, and hybrid cars galore on our highways in CA. My wife drives a Prius which is nearly as common in the Bay Area as the VW Bug was in the 1960's.

Why does the New Right seek to protect Coal and Oil / NG and claim it to be superior to any every other source of energy? Job security, fear of change or ignorance?

Why does the New Right seek to protect Coal and Oil / NG and claim it to be superior to any every other source of energy?

Why does the Progressive Left continue to fear nuclear energy when it is clearly the best source of reliable CO2-free energy in useful amounts? Is it fear of change or ignorance?
It's our only hope to save the planet from killer warming, right?

I don't fear nor do I oppose the new generation of nuclear reactors. I do believe we have evolved, both technologically and experientially, since 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl and the more recent crisis in Japan. So don't pretend to know what all Democrats, all liberals or anyone else believes - you don't.

Now that I've put your non sequitur to rest, solar power has become common place on homes and office buildings, and battery technology has created electric and hybrid cars to go further while not being a slave to OPEC/Big OIL or polluting the environment with noise and noxious fumes.

Your global warming comment, also a non sequitur, exists; notwithstanding the efforts of the conservative propaganda. People do have an impact on the earths climate and only stupid people are in denial of this FACT.

What disturbs me the most is the crazy right wing pisses and moans about the nations fiscal debt, but gives not one second of thought to the condition their policies will leave the earth to our posterity.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Mr. Flacaltenn, you are truly full of shit on this subject.

https://www.innotap.com/2016/06/grid-scale-batteries-gain-ground-research-continues-seek-lower-cost/

In deregulated electricity markets like most of Texas, where the lowest cost means of generation wins out, energy storage largely remains too expensive. Still, battery projects are not unheard of; the power company AES Corp. and the transmission company Oncor launched one in Dallas to help regulate power.

“We definitely are at an acceleration point,” Jaffe said. “You’re starting to see project you wouldn’t call pilots anymore, big large projects.”

So far, energy storage has largely gravitated around lithium ion technology, the same form of battery used to power smartphones and laptops. Costs have come down fast as companies like Tesla and Panasonic refine the manufacturing process for use in cars and grid storage systems.

But as anyone with a smartphone knows, lithium ion’s lifespan is limited, with a steady loss of capacity as the years tick away. That might not be much of a problem for personal electronics or even cars, but power industry equipment is expected to last 20 years.

Instead, many scientists are turning towards what is known as flow battery technology, which stores energy by shifting electrical charges across liquids and is believed to have a lifespan of decades. Scientists at the federal Joint Center for Energy Storage Research have already committed to the technology for grid storage after spending more than three years exploring alternatives, Crabtree said.

“Everyone says batteries are at the place solar was 10 years ago,” he said. “As you know, the cost of solar has come down and the quality has gone up. Now they’re getting installed like mad.”

In a decade, the combination of wind, solar, and geothermal will, on the basis of economics, put fossil fuel and nuclear plants out of business. The developing storage technology guarantees that.

Not gonna happen,.. would be an enviro disaster if it did. You have no concept of what it takes to store DAYS of electricity when the wind don't blow. You can't power a steel mill from batteries for a day or a city of 40,000 for more than a couple hours.

Do the math. Do the economics.. You're listening to the dying gasps of an industry that has been overhyped and over-sold..

Oh those with no imagination and willful ignorance, in a word, conservative, ought to do some research before they broadcast foolishly. See:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

Keep in mind, the first cars need a crank to start (I hope that's not too abstract for the conservative set).

Would be nice to see the environmental impact statement of making 100 acres of desert glow red for a few hours every day.. Wouldn't it?

What you DON'T know --- is that the CSP (concentrated solar or "death ray" technology) that would USE this approach is already failing to produce anywhere close to modeling and estimates. There has a been a fair trial of this solar variant and the results are dismal. .Look up IvanPah for instance. You HAVE NO excess to store in the sand --- if your actual generation is 40% of what folks paid for..


And "sand storage" does NOT couple well with the majority of solar generation which is PV panels. Wouldn't work to convert electricity to heat and back again.

So there you are ---- BARELY paying attention to the details, and telling tech folks like myself that I just need more childish OPTIMISM and HOPE. When YOU --- have no freakin' idea how any of this works or is related.

How many efforts failed in the development of heavier than air vehicles? How many rockets blew up on the launching pad before we went men to the moon?

All of which risked small numbers of people, and treasure. You, on the other hand, wish to cast the whole world into a system wide failure. Where energy is available 24/7 to only the very wealthy, and where the entirety of the population of the Earth is cast into poverty. Yeppers, that's a real compelling argument you have there dude.

STRAW MAN ALERT!!!

Next time don't use wet straw and don't dress the Scarecrow in Asbestos.

 

[Wry Catcher]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

You clearly have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Energy transmission across vast distances requires extremely high voltages to do. Voltages you don't get from wind or solar. Might I suggest you actually learn about what you're spewing. Here's a homework problem for you. How long would it take to recharge a Tesla using just solar power?

Today or tomorrow? Remember the first bicycle, the one with the huge front wheel? Evolution is not restricted to biology, it is ever present in technology (remember the Commodore 64?). We see Tesla and Volt (Chevy) cars, and hybrid cars galore on our highways in CA. My wife drives a Prius which is nearly as common in the Bay Area as the VW Bug was in the 1960's.

Why does the New Right seek to protect Coal and Oil / NG and claim it to be superior to any every other source of energy? Job security, fear of change or ignorance?

Nobody behind THIS keyboard is protecting Coal. I'd like to see most coal replaced by nuclear --- like tomorrow. And instead of finding ginormous additional grid capacity for charging battery cars -- I'd like to see hydrogen fuel cells.. We're not the ones STUCK on stupid when it comes to alternatives.

Progress requires many starts and stops, many failures before successes and an imaginative mind. Breakthroughs can occur at odd times and in odd ways and your hope for hydrogen fuel cells is admirable but cannot become a reality without trial and error. Baby steps will get us to where we need to be, and the conservative bullshit does not help us in our efforts to get to the future.

We put men on the moon almost 50 years ago, and decided war was the best use of our nations resources; it's time we grow up!

 

[flacaltenn]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

You clearly have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Energy transmission across vast distances requires extremely high voltages to do. Voltages you don't get from wind or solar. Might I suggest you actually learn about what you're spewing. Here's a homework problem for you. How long would it take to recharge a Tesla using just solar power?

Today or tomorrow? Remember the first bicycle, the one with the huge front wheel? Evolution is not restricted to biology, it is ever present in technology (remember the Commodore 64?). We see Tesla and Volt (Chevy) cars, and hybrid cars galore on our highways in CA. My wife drives a Prius which is nearly as common in the Bay Area as the VW Bug was in the 1960's.

Why does the New Right seek to protect Coal and Oil / NG and claim it to be superior to any every other source of energy? Job security, fear of change or ignorance?

Nobody behind THIS keyboard is protecting Coal. I'd like to see most coal replaced by nuclear --- like tomorrow. And instead of finding ginormous additional grid capacity for charging battery cars -- I'd like to see hydrogen fuel cells.. We're not the ones STUCK on stupid when it comes to alternatives.

Progress requires many starts and stops, many failures before successes and an imaginative mind. Breakthroughs can occur at odd times and in odd ways and your hope for hydrogen fuel cells is admirable but cannot become a reality without trial and error. Baby steps will get us to where we need to be, and the conservative bullshit does not help us in our efforts to get to the future.

We put men on the moon almost 50 years ago, and decided war was the best use of our nations resources; it's time we grow up!

Do you know where the on-board power came from on the Apollo manned vehicles? Hydrogen fuel cells. It must be some kind of conspiracy by the oil companies as to why we're not driving one today --- Right?

Ever hear of the European "hydrogen highway"? Or Scharzenegger's version of it in Cali?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/opinion/sunday/hydrogen-cars-coming-down-the-pike.html?_r=0

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-may-prove-fuel-of-the-future/

Now THERE is an alternative with STILL a lot of room for tech innovation and development.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

acctually the usa is big enough that when the sun sets in california it rises in new foundland.

and somewhere on the continental USA the wind blows.

so anyone who thinks that theres not enough USA to make " Green", id say "American" energy possible is a moron who does not understand how big how great the USA is

the USA would not have a problem to maintain a level of energy use 10 times greater then today with sustainable energy

your just too fucked up to do it

You clearly have no idea what the heck you're talking about. Energy transmission across vast distances requires extremely high voltages to do. Voltages you don't get from wind or solar. Might I suggest you actually learn about what you're spewing. Here's a homework problem for you. How long would it take to recharge a Tesla using just solar power?

Today or tomorrow? Remember the first bicycle, the one with the huge front wheel? Evolution is not restricted to biology, it is ever present in technology (remember the Commodore 64?). We see Tesla and Volt (Chevy) cars, and hybrid cars galore on our highways in CA. My wife drives a Prius which is nearly as common in the Bay Area as the VW Bug was in the 1960's.

Why does the New Right seek to protect Coal and Oil / NG and claim it to be superior to any every other source of energy? Job security, fear of change or ignorance?

Why does the New Right seek to protect Coal and Oil / NG and claim it to be superior to any every other source of energy?

Why does the Progressive Left continue to fear nuclear energy when it is clearly the best source of reliable CO2-free energy in useful amounts? Is it fear of change or ignorance?
It's our only hope to save the planet from killer warming, right?

I don't fear nor do I oppose the new generation of nuclear reactors. I do believe we have evolved, both technologically and experientially, since 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl and the more recent crisis in Japan. So don't pretend to know what all Democrats, all liberals or anyone else believes - you don't.

Now that I've put your non sequitur to rest, solar power has become common place on homes and office buildings, and battery technology has created electric and hybrid cars to go further while not being a slave to OPEC/Big OIL or polluting the environment with noise and noxious fumes.

Your global warming comment, also a non sequitur, exists; notwithstanding the efforts of the conservative propaganda. People do have an impact on the earths climate and only stupid people are in denial of this FACT.

What disturbs me the most is the crazy right wing pisses and moans about the nations fiscal debt, but gives not one second of thought to the condition their policies will leave the earth to our posterity.

I don't fear nor do I oppose the new generation of nuclear reactors. I do believe we have evolved, both technologically and experientially, since 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl and the more recent crisis in Japan.

Excellent! Now all you have to do is convince the other 99% of warmer idiots and we'll have a point of agreement for clean energy.
Stop wasting taxpayer subsidies on these stupid windmills and solar panels.

People do have an impact on the earths climate and only stupid people are in denial of this FACT.

Yup. And only stupid people prefer killing our economy to nuclear energy.

 

[westwall]

Not gonna happen,.. would be an enviro disaster if it did. You have no concept of what it takes to store DAYS of electricity when the wind don't blow. You can't power a steel mill from batteries for a day or a city of 40,000 for more than a couple hours.

Do the math. Do the economics.. You're listening to the dying gasps of an industry that has been overhyped and over-sold..

Oh those with no imagination and willful ignorance, in a word, conservative, ought to do some research before they broadcast foolishly. See:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

Keep in mind, the first cars need a crank to start (I hope that's not too abstract for the conservative set).

Would be nice to see the environmental impact statement of making 100 acres of desert glow red for a few hours every day.. Wouldn't it?

What you DON'T know --- is that the CSP (concentrated solar or "death ray" technology) that would USE this approach is already failing to produce anywhere close to modeling and estimates. There has a been a fair trial of this solar variant and the results are dismal. .Look up IvanPah for instance. You HAVE NO excess to store in the sand --- if your actual generation is 40% of what folks paid for..


And "sand storage" does NOT couple well with the majority of solar generation which is PV panels. Wouldn't work to convert electricity to heat and back again.

So there you are ---- BARELY paying attention to the details, and telling tech folks like myself that I just need more childish OPTIMISM and HOPE. When YOU --- have no freakin' idea how any of this works or is related.

How many efforts failed in the development of heavier than air vehicles? How many rockets blew up on the launching pad before we went men to the moon?

All of which risked small numbers of people, and treasure. You, on the other hand, wish to cast the whole world into a system wide failure. Where energy is available 24/7 to only the very wealthy, and where the entirety of the population of the Earth is cast into poverty. Yeppers, that's a real compelling argument you have there dude.

STRAW MAN ALERT!!!

Next time don't use wet straw and don't dress the Scarecrow in Asbestos.

Straw man my ass. Your entire argument is based on very flimsy straw men. Get a clue.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Mr. Flacaltenn, you are truly full of shit on this subject.

https://www.innotap.com/2016/06/grid-scale-batteries-gain-ground-research-continues-seek-lower-cost/

In deregulated electricity markets like most of Texas, where the lowest cost means of generation wins out, energy storage largely remains too expensive. Still, battery projects are not unheard of; the power company AES Corp. and the transmission company Oncor launched one in Dallas to help regulate power.

“We definitely are at an acceleration point,” Jaffe said. “You’re starting to see project you wouldn’t call pilots anymore, big large projects.”

So far, energy storage has largely gravitated around lithium ion technology, the same form of battery used to power smartphones and laptops. Costs have come down fast as companies like Tesla and Panasonic refine the manufacturing process for use in cars and grid storage systems.

But as anyone with a smartphone knows, lithium ion’s lifespan is limited, with a steady loss of capacity as the years tick away. That might not be much of a problem for personal electronics or even cars, but power industry equipment is expected to last 20 years.

Instead, many scientists are turning towards what is known as flow battery technology, which stores energy by shifting electrical charges across liquids and is believed to have a lifespan of decades. Scientists at the federal Joint Center for Energy Storage Research have already committed to the technology for grid storage after spending more than three years exploring alternatives, Crabtree said.

“Everyone says batteries are at the place solar was 10 years ago,” he said. “As you know, the cost of solar has come down and the quality has gone up. Now they’re getting installed like mad.”

In a decade, the combination of wind, solar, and geothermal will, on the basis of economics, put fossil fuel and nuclear plants out of business. The developing storage technology guarantees that.

Not gonna happen,.. would be an enviro disaster if it did. You have no concept of what it takes to store DAYS of electricity when the wind don't blow. You can't power a steel mill from batteries for a day or a city of 40,000 for more than a couple hours.

Do the math. Do the economics.. You're listening to the dying gasps of an industry that has been overhyped and over-sold..

Oh those with no imagination and willful ignorance, in a word, conservative, ought to do some research before they broadcast foolishly. See:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

Keep in mind, the first cars need a crank to start (I hope that's not too abstract for the conservative set).

Would be nice to see the environmental impact statement of making 100 acres of desert glow red for a few hours every day.. Wouldn't it?

What you DON'T know --- is that the CSP (concentrated solar or "death ray" technology) that would USE this approach is already failing to produce anywhere close to modeling and estimates. There has a been a fair trial of this solar variant and the results are dismal. .Look up IvanPah for instance. You HAVE NO excess to store in the sand --- if your actual generation is 40% of what folks paid for..


And "sand storage" does NOT couple well with the majority of solar generation which is PV panels. Wouldn't work to convert electricity to heat and back again.

So there you are ---- BARELY paying attention to the details, and telling tech folks like myself that I just need more childish OPTIMISM and HOPE. When YOU --- have no freakin' idea how any of this works or is related.

How many efforts failed in the development of heavier than air vehicles? How many rockets blew up on the launching pad before we went men to the moon?

Nawww.. We are WAY past those analogies with solar and wind. We have MUCH BETTER solar panels on the Mars Rovers. FAR superior to what's used for commercial power. WE KNOW how to make better panels. In this case -- you'd have to mine every ARSENIC resource on the planet to provide enough GA-Arsenside to produce them. And leftist enviros would PROBABLY excuse that. But even then -- the cost would 4 or 5 times more than Silicon panels.

Rockets STILL blow up on the pads. It's not a measure of tech development. And there are DETAILS to the tech that greenies have no clues about. Like making the sand glow for 4 hours a day.

THere are no ALTERNATIVES on the list. Just a bunch of supplements. And we could push those supplements in BETTER DIRECTIONS --- than by forcing them to replace reliable 24/7/365 power generation. Things like renewable powered desalinization and hydrogen fuel production --- where the STORAGE is inherent in the process itself..

So, you're an expert (?) and yet solar and renewable energy exists, and is providing power throughout our nation. Maybe you ought to spend some time educating all those engineers and entrepreneurs wasting their time and money - instead of playing the expert on the Internet.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Oh those with no imagination and willful ignorance, in a word, conservative, ought to do some research before they broadcast foolishly. See:

Scientists Store Solar Energy in Desert Sand - The Green Optimistic

Keep in mind, the first cars need a crank to start (I hope that's not too abstract for the conservative set).

Would be nice to see the environmental impact statement of making 100 acres of desert glow red for a few hours every day.. Wouldn't it?

What you DON'T know --- is that the CSP (concentrated solar or "death ray" technology) that would USE this approach is already failing to produce anywhere close to modeling and estimates. There has a been a fair trial of this solar variant and the results are dismal. .Look up IvanPah for instance. You HAVE NO excess to store in the sand --- if your actual generation is 40% of what folks paid for..


And "sand storage" does NOT couple well with the majority of solar generation which is PV panels. Wouldn't work to convert electricity to heat and back again.

So there you are ---- BARELY paying attention to the details, and telling tech folks like myself that I just need more childish OPTIMISM and HOPE. When YOU --- have no freakin' idea how any of this works or is related.

How many efforts failed in the development of heavier than air vehicles? How many rockets blew up on the launching pad before we went men to the moon?

All of which risked small numbers of people, and treasure. You, on the other hand, wish to cast the whole world into a system wide failure. Where energy is available 24/7 to only the very wealthy, and where the entirety of the population of the Earth is cast into poverty. Yeppers, that's a real compelling argument you have there dude.

STRAW MAN ALERT!!!

Next time don't use wet straw and don't dress the Scarecrow in Asbestos.

Straw man my ass. Your entire argument is based on very flimsy straw men. Get a clue.

Maybe you ought to look up Straw Man and read about other logical fallacies. This ^^^ response is childish, foolish and makes other posts you might choose to make less credible. You sure have a problem being criticized, a short fuse is the sign of emotional immaturity.