The United States IS a Christian Nation

[SmarterThanHick]

yes you're very good at copying and pasting. your ability to make a point, however, is still lacking.

can you pull out a single quote from Madison which shows beyond any doubt that he desired a connection between church and state? or that he saw great personal value in religion? cuz the things you copied, pasted, bolded, and red don't show that. They show that he was for personal religious freedoms (as he also promoted in the first amendment), but it fails to show his personal support. So how do we resolve our two sets of quotes? Well it's apparent to me that he thought religion was a freedom, but has also been shown to be a horrible influence on society, especially law and governance. Which one of your quotes contradicts that conclusion? Please point it out.

The Declaration of Independence is considered a Founding Document. Accept it.

And yet it did not comprise what constituted the country (that would be the constitution). Several steps were needed to found the country, one of which being independence. But when the founding fathers put to words the values and traits which ought to constitute this country, the only mention of religion was that it should be separated from state affairs. The word "Christian" doesn't appear in any such historical document whatsoever.

So to review the two parts of founding a country:

1. stating what we are not - in our case, "not Britain, a religious nation" - communicating in the manner that was appropriate for that religious nation (Declaration of Independence)
2. stating what we are - one unified nation that clearly separates religion from governance. (Constitution)

Let me know which part you disagree with.

 

[Setarcos]

Funny... honest people see a secular nation/government with a large population of religious people.

Dishonest people try to prove that specific individuals were religious and claim this is a theocracy because they want one.

 

[Intense]

yes you're very good at copying and pasting. your ability to make a point, however, is still lacking.

can you pull out a single quote from Madison which shows beyond any doubt that he desired a connection between church and state? or that he saw great personal value in religion? cuz the things you copied, pasted, bolded, and red don't show that. They show that he was for personal religious freedoms (as he also promoted in the first amendment), but it fails to show his personal support. So how do we resolve our two sets of quotes? Well it's apparent to me that he thought religion was a freedom, but has also been shown to be a horrible influence on society, especially law and governance. Which one of your quotes contradicts that conclusion? Please point it out.

The Declaration of Independence is considered a Founding Document. Accept it.

And yet it did not comprise what constituted the country (that would be the constitution). Several steps were needed to found the country, one of which being independence. But when the founding fathers put to words the values and traits which ought to constitute this country, the only mention of religion was that it should be separated from state affairs. The word "Christian" doesn't appear in any such historical document whatsoever.

So to review the two parts of founding a country:

1. stating what we are not - in our case, "not Britain, a religious nation" - communicating in the manner that was appropriate for that religious nation (Declaration of Independence)
2. stating what we are - one unified nation that clearly separates religion from governance. (Constitution)

Let me know which part you disagree with.

You may be confusing My Position with Others on the Thread. I am in agreement that The United States of America is Not a Christian Nation. It was founded on Christian Principles which seek to persuade even by example, rather than mandate. Our Civil Law is also based on Christian Principles of right and wrong, the law is however under civil control, separate from any Church. Our Principle here, is that People are free to Believe or not believe as they will, We are All Free to act within Reason.

I Accept Both of Your Points as Valid and True. There is a reason I so often fall back on Conscience.

If "all men are by nature equally free and independent," all men are to be considered as entering into Society on equal conditions; as relinquishing no more, and therefore retaining no less, one than another, of their natural rights. Above all are they to be considered as retaining an "equal title to the free exercise of Religion according to the dictates of Conscience."

 

[Intense]

STH, to follow Madison and his Writings, one would have to be blind not to see His Faith in His words. He was Principle Driven, most likely heavily influenced by John Locke's style of Christianity. If You are not familiar with it, that's understandable. It was neither received well or taught all that well. Locke, was very outspoken against the Tyranny of The State and the Church, both. His philosophy is laid out in Memorial and Remonstrance. Both plainly Advocated a Personal Relationship with God, through Conscience, and that was to take precedent over All Else. There is no doubt of James Madison's Priorities. I have not failed to show that. We each must process for Ourselves.

 

[Setarcos]

How sad that people constantly appeal to Locke

 

[JakeStarkey]

How sad that an intelligent person cannot accept Locke's reasoning.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

STH, to follow Madison and his Writings, one would have to be blind not to see His Faith in His words. He was Principle Driven, most likely heavily influenced by John Locke's style of Christianity. If You are not familiar with it, that's understandable. It was neither received well or taught all that well. Locke, was very outspoken against the Tyranny of The State and the Church, both. His philosophy is laid out in Memorial and Remonstrance. Both plainly Advocated a Personal Relationship with God, through Conscience, and that was to take precedent over All Else. There is no doubt of James Madison's Priorities. I have not failed to show that. We each must process for Ourselves.

and yet when asked to show how his personal religious beliefs affected the constitution, you have yet to provide one. All you have done is copy and paste his quotes which state that religion should be a free choice. No where do you show that religion has founded our Constitution, influenced it, or been written into it (except for the part that excludes it from our government).

When it comes to his stance on how religion should play a role in government, I have very clearly pointed out his quotes which show a clear negative reaction. I have asked you to provide a contradictory quote, which you have yet to do. Instead, you make generalized claims that civil law is based on Christianity, with no support. I can only guess your support is the fact that they jive with Christian morals, when the fact is that kind of morality it inherently moral, regardless of religion.

 

[Setarcos]

How sad that an intelligent person cannot accept Locke's reasoning.

How sad you think he has any. The fallaciousness of Locke's writing has been demonstrated.

His assertions fall

 

[Setarcos]

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;...

US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797

Case Closed

 

[Intense]

STH, to follow Madison and his Writings, one would have to be blind not to see His Faith in His words. He was Principle Driven, most likely heavily influenced by John Locke's style of Christianity. If You are not familiar with it, that's understandable. It was neither received well or taught all that well. Locke, was very outspoken against the Tyranny of The State and the Church, both. His philosophy is laid out in Memorial and Remonstrance. Both plainly Advocated a Personal Relationship with God, through Conscience, and that was to take precedent over All Else. There is no doubt of James Madison's Priorities. I have not failed to show that. We each must process for Ourselves.

and yet when asked to show how his personal religious beliefs affected the constitution, you have yet to provide one. All you have done is copy and paste his quotes which state that religion should be a free choice. No where do you show that religion has founded our Constitution, influenced it, or been written into it (except for the part that excludes it from our government).

When it comes to his stance on how religion should play a role in government, I have very clearly pointed out his quotes which show a clear negative reaction. I have asked you to provide a contradictory quote, which you have yet to do. Instead, you make generalized claims that civil law is based on Christianity, with no support. I can only guess your support is the fact that they jive with Christian morals, when the fact is that kind of morality it inherently moral, regardless of religion.

I have actually been pretty tolerant and patient with You STH. You fail to grasp, that like Locke and Madison, I am an advocate of Separation of Church and State. Each protected from the over stepping of the other. I'm not on these boards to live up to a single expectation of You or Anyone Else. It is out of courtesy that I respond. You come off as condescending, it is not cute. I've asked you your Religion before. Give me some foundation for a rational honest discussion or find someone else to bother. We can discuss the influence of religion on Government, respectfully any time You want. Religion was kept out of the Constitution for the very reasons we both stated. Inalienable Rights are Religious and Legal.

Religious Connotation

The Constitution of the United States of America
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

 

[Setarcos]

Just look at the England and the Anglican church.

They didn't want the other sects of Christianity legislating their religion.

Therefore, they sought to keep the Church and the State exasperate

 

[Intense]

Nobody, therefore, in fine, neither single persons nor churches, nay, nor even commonwealths, have any just title to invade the civil rights and worldly goods of each other upon pretence of religion. Those that are of another opinion would do well to consider with themselves how pernicious a seed of discord and war, how powerful a provocation to endless hatreds, rapines, and slaughters they thereby furnish unto mankind. No peace and security, no, not so much as common friendship, can ever be established or preserved amongst men so long as this opinion prevails, that dominion is founded in grace and that religion is to be propagated by force of arms. -John Locke

 

[Setarcos]

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Consequences


Crying that you don't like how someone like you might act doesn't make your claims any more valid.

You keep appealing to Locke regarding matters in which he's already been refuted

 

[Intense]

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Consequences


Crying that you don't like how someone like you might act doesn't make your claims any more valid.

You keep appealing to Locke regarding matters in which he's already been refuted

Accusing People Falsely does not Justify Your position in any way. You have not refuted Locke. You have yet to realize him. Your accusations are false, your premise is false, You need to take a sober look at your life, now be polite, or ignore.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

I have actually been pretty tolerant and patient with You STH.

Are you looking for thanks or humility in response to that? Cuz right now, I'm inclined to offer more of the same.

You fail to grasp, that like Locke and Madison, I am an advocate of Separation of Church and State. Each protected from the over stepping of the other.

Then what points have you been arguing? Cuz, as I see it, that's been the discussion, and you've used quotes from their personal lives to justify... something. So if it wasn't against the actual topic being discussed, what points have you been attempting to make?

I've asked you your Religion before. Give me some foundation for a rational honest discussion or find someone else to bother. We can discuss the influence of religion on Government, respectfully any time You want.

No, you have not asked for my religion before (by all means, link to where you have), and regardless of that, my beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion. The only reason you could possibly want to know my beliefs (or I to know yours) with respect to this conversation, is to make an ad hominem fallacy.

Religious Connotation

The Constitution of the United States of America
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Yes you're very good at copying and pasting. Again I ask: what is your point?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

SmarterThanHick

Where do our "inalienable rights" come from?

How come all fifty states' preambles mention God?

Article. VII, US Constitution:

"Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven"

Our National Anthem includes these words:

Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
James Madison

 

[SmarterThanHick]

ugh what a mislead mess. alright, let's shred this apart too.

How come all fifty states' preambles mention God? Our National Anthem includes these words

Because no one cares about state constitutions? Because midway through the last century, a bunch of religious zealots wanted religion to be a larger part of government and so added in mention of God? Because even with a mention there, there exists absolutely no reference to Christianity, or any other religion for that matter. This makes it rather hard to say this is a Christian nation just because that word is in state constitutions and excluded from the founding constitution of the nation. Perhaps I can claim it's a Muslim nation for the same reason?

"Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven"

You do realize that is how people referred to years, right? Let me put it this way: when we say the year is 2009AD, what do you think that "AD" stands for? Perhaps, because it was signed on a Monday, which comes from the root of "Moon Day", it infers the US is really a Roman or Pagan nation. Had it been signed in January or March, we could definitely claim we're a Roman nation by your logic.

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
James Madison

hmmm, let's see what snopes has to say about this one:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Actually, this statement appears nowhere in the writings or recorded utterances of James Madison and is completely contradictory to his character as a strong proponent of the separation of church and state.

Oh I see, you thought that getting "facts" from websites dedicated to Christian zealotry was a good idea...

Did you also know James Madison once said "Lonestar_logic is wrong"? Seriously, true fact.

 

[ABikerSailor]

SmarterThanHick

Where do our "inalienable rights" come from?

How come all fifty states' preambles mention God?

Article. VII, US Constitution:

"Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven"

Our National Anthem includes these words:

Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
James Madison

First off Dim Bulb/No Logic, you may wish to actually research things before you post them.........no, Glenn Blech isn't right, you should verify facts before posting.

"Year of Our Lord" refers to ANY YEAR IN ANY COUNTRY THAT USES THE GREGORIAN CALENDAR!

As far as the "In God We Trust"? Might wanna check this out........

In God We Trust is the official motto of the United States and the U.S. state of Florida. The motto first appeared on a United States coin in 1864 during strong Christian sentiment emerging during the Civil War, but In God We Trust did not become the official U.S. national motto until after the passage of an Act of Congress in 1956.[1][2] It is codified as federal law in the United States Code at 36 U.S.C. § 302, which provides: "In God we trust" is the national motto".

In God We Trust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So no.......our money did not have that motto until some rabid ultra devout Christians got their fingers in the pie around the latter part of the 1800's.

Try again. You fail.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

ugh what a mislead mess. alright, let's shred this apart too.

How come all fifty states' preambles mention God? Our National Anthem includes these words

Because no one cares about state constitutions? Because midway through the last century, a bunch of religious zealots wanted religion to be a larger part of government and so added in mention of God? Because even with a mention there, there exists absolutely no reference to Christianity, or any other religion for that matter. This makes it rather hard to say this is a Christian nation just because that word is in state constitutions and excluded from the founding constitution of the nation. Perhaps I can claim it's a Muslim nation for the same reason?

"Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven"

You do realize that is how people referred to years, right? Let me put it this way: when we say the year is 2009AD, what do you think that "AD" stands for? Perhaps, because it was signed on a Monday, which comes from the root of "Moon Day", it infers the US is really a Roman or Pagan nation. Had it been signed in January or March, we could definitely claim we're a Roman nation by your logic.

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
James Madison

hmmm, let's see what snopes has to say about this one:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Actually, this statement appears nowhere in the writings or recorded utterances of James Madison and is completely contradictory to his character as a strong proponent of the separation of church and state.

Oh I see, you thought that getting "facts" from websites dedicated to Christian zealotry was a good idea...

Did you also know James Madison once said "Lonestar_logic is wrong"? Seriously, true fact.

You fail!

 

[SmarterThanHick]

oh come on, I just showed that the "quote" you based the largest part of your argument on was a result of religiousn nutjobs making things up and you gullible believing that garbage, and the only thing you can say in response is that I fail?